Multiplayer Replay Analysis

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ForPeace
Posts: 159
Joined: December 12th, 2015, 3:09 pm
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by ForPeace »

I'll add something from my side but I agree with most of what sergey said.
sergey wrote: March 24th, 2020, 4:33 pm 2 wolf riders was a waste of gold. You are anyway playing defensively. Scouts are used to threaten and grab villages, or finish wounded enemies. Instead of them at turns 6-7 you had to recruit either grunts, trolls or assassins and make sure they are parked on good terrain. Grunts ideally in villages. Considering your unit composition at that moment I would suggest grunts.
The best moment to recruit a scout is on turn 1 when you need him to capture the furthest village. Scouts are also useful in getting more vision and information about what your opponent is doing, especially what he is recruiting.
Of course, unit composition matters a lot! Grunts are the core of an orcish army: the most resilient, the cheapest and the most powerful. You should have a lot of them in every game as an orc. Other units can be sometimes useful too (like archers and assasins for heavy infantrymen and cavalry: notice damage type resistances!) but grunts are the core.
See a neki game where he beats an opponent by outnumbering him with grunts.
Moving leader to the lake was a mistake. You missed opportunity to reinforce.
- leader may be useful in the fight, but his main task is to recruit
In fact, overusing a leader is a very common beginner mistake. The biggest problem about it is that you stop yourself from recruiting. A good rule is to always stay 1 turn away from your keep, not further, except when a leader can help you recapture a village (like a Red Mage or an Elvish Sorceress). Also, when you have very little income and cannot recruit, you can use your leader. Still, be careful while doing it.
Here is an example game where neki takes advantage of his opponent overusing the leader.

Another skill that in my opinion is very important in competitive Wesnoth is evaluating the risk. If you can achieve less than you are risking, you shouldn't engage in a fight. For example, you can kill one 14-gold unit but you know that if you do it your opponent will kill 3 of your units so you don't attack him. Vice versa: if you can achieve much by risking only a little you should engage in a fight. For instance, you have 12/16 villages, a lot of grunts and your opponent has only 7 units left. You don't mind losing a few grunts to kill an important lvl2 red mage because then a red mage won't help your opponent retake villages and you have huge income and a lot of units. In this game, you kept attacking on the right flank at day instead of retreating, which was in fact a big risk misjudgement. You couldn't get much at day but risked many units.

Have fun and good luck in future games!
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helling3r
Posts: 21
Joined: April 11th, 2019, 7:16 pm

Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by helling3r »

Just to discuss the wulfs, i recruited them for vision, so i can prepare better off mounted units arrive. The many archers were to defend against hi and mounted and also to give me more flexibility due to two different attack types...
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sergey
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by sergey »

You don't need so many archers to counter 1 HI and 2 cavalry. That is a valid point to have different units in your composition. Important thing about Wesnoth is that during your turn your unit attacks one time, and it can retaliate many times during enemy turn. In Wesnoth majority of units are melee oriented. Which means that your archers will suffer during enemy turn. Another important concept is to build walls to not let enemy attack you from many hexes and increase your units chances to survive. And grunt obviously is better for walls comparing to archer. Again, the basic recommendation is to recruit grunts. Play with that approach until you get enough skills to figure out something better depending on the situation. For example, if you had for the whole game 12 grunts and 14 archers, it would be better to have 21 grunts and 6 archers.
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helling3r
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Joined: April 11th, 2019, 7:16 pm

Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by helling3r »

Thanks again for all that good advice!
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Aelaris
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by Aelaris »

My brother and I played a game which... went a bit long. Several times where I felt I was badly losing, but then instead of losing... I eventually won?

So we are sort of curious as to how both of us could improve our play, but also curious as to how my brother should have better capitalized on early (and mid-game) success to seal the deal and win.
2p — Weldyn Channel replay 2.gz
(33.27 KiB) Downloaded 65 times
I'm playing Northerners (in the South, blue) and my brother is playing Loyalists (in the north, red).
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Computer_Player
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Re: Multiplayer Replay Analysis

Post by Computer_Player »

Aelaris wrote: December 31st, 2020, 11:01 pm My brother and I played a game which... went a bit long. Several times where I felt I was badly losing, but then instead of losing... I eventually won?

So we are sort of curious as to how both of us could improve our play, but also curious as to how my brother should have better capitalized on early (and mid-game) success to seal the deal and win.

2p — Weldyn Channel replay 2.gz

I'm playing Northerners (in the South, blue) and my brother is playing Loyalists (in the north, red).
Hi, here's my attempt to analyze your replay. I hope this will still reach you and your brother and help you guys (and any other interested parties) to have more fun with the game.

So some assumptions. I am assuming you guys are playing hot-seat 2p and thus know each other's factions from the start.

Turn 1. Recruitment. This is a crucial time when the direction of the early game will go. Objectives would be to grab villages, scout the enemy, and setup your early game strategy whether to attack / defend.

Red: Note that you cannot grab the maximum amount of villages, switching the fencer with a cavalry would ensure that. Very aggressive recruit for Loyalists especially as Turn 1. Due to ToD, its actually hard for P1 to attack first as Loyalists, so I feel a more balanced recruit would be better. Some would balk at getting a mage this early but I think its fine vs random. Vs picked Northerns, I would definitely forgo mages unless there's tons of trolls in the field. This is because you can more efficiently kill enemy units even with cheaper units and further, mages are very vulnerable. Horseman is ok, however, either get 1 horseman or one mage, but not together on the first turn- you missed out on recruiting another unit due to getting these very expensive units when you don't have intel on the enemy nor a concrete plan on how to use these specialist units yet. A final note: in this map, it would be good to get at least 1 water unit (something that gives vision / control over the water). Just so you are not blindsided by your enemy from that front.

Blue: P2 can''t grab maximum number of vils as well, having missed out on a quick assassin. I think this was calculated and thus was just unlucky, its a interesting viable strat. The problem with so many early assassins is that you might have trouble if you into Undead, but since its vs a picked loyalist P!, its ok.

Turn 2. Normal village grabbing, the thing of note is Blue evenly dividing his forces. This is a problem as it makes it harder to attack on either side to take advantage of the first night (a very important moment for Northerners, a very aggressive faction). First night is the building block upon which Chaotic factions/unit mix begin to march to victory vs Lawful factions - there's not enough units on the map that Loyalists can defend with, thus usually have an easy village grab. However by having no side in which to concentrate an attack with, you can't form that local out-numbering to threaten an undefendable attack.

Turn 3 - 6. The consequences of the above plays out. Notes: Red move with the fencer was unnecessary, he is killed very easily, tip is to never relly on evasive dodging when not needed (i.e. was not able to stall anything for a reasonable length of time, etc.). The lack of the 6th unit recruit and choice of a mage, combined with underutilization of leader (not moved to left or right) makes it hard for Red as they cannot form a defensive line. Thus, despite blue splitting up his forces, he is able to attack successfully both sides.

Heavy Infrantryman recruit is another blunder. Although effective vs grunts its vulnerable to assassins, its also another very expensive slow unit. You need to keep up with the numbers that Northerners are fielding, this means recruiting the cheapest effective units (i.e. spearman, bowman, cav).

What Red should have done was give up on 6,7 village, and send the horseman to 26,6 to prevent surrounding the flanking that happened on the spearman and also send the leader to the right and beyond the castle. This ensures that they only get 1 vil and you are in position for a powerful right side attack come day.

Turn 7- 9. The game is lost for red at this point given optimal play from both sides (and average RNG). However Orcs do not retreat and give loyalists a chance for a comeback. He also sends the leader to extreme left, which stops your recruiting for 2 turns. Blue even manages to level up a mage to white mage which, btw, is not always the better choice - white mage excel in healing but against northerners, they are best vs trolls and naga but struggle against the other orc units. It's also very easily killed by orcs at night. Red mage is actually more often the best pick unless you need healing asap or are up against Undead (even then, some still pick Red).

Turn 10 - . Orcs attempts to capitalize the night but the right side have no reinforcements up against a larger group of loyalists with a level 2. The horsemove was totally unnecessary as teh archer was going to die next turn anyway.

Turn 15 - nice Attacking line by loyalists to stave off the oncoming attack. You saw the sopportunity and capitalized. However, should have retreated after as night was coming. A more safe line would be to not attack and consolidate, taking advantage of the next day instead. Generally you want to attack at dawn to maximize your daylight as a lawful faction. Also as you can see HI are vulnerable vs relatively cheap archers. Hence HI is generally not a good idea vs Northerners unless backed up by other units.

Turn 22 - 25 Loyalists do a good job defending the right, but they are on a backfoot generally. I think this game is lost for loyalists at this point. Lost too many units for too many gold , lost villages for too long with no counter village grabbing.

Game ends on Turn 29

In generally, my advice would be to respect the Time of Day more, stop playing moves with no clear objectives, evaluate risk vs loss better (I suggest playing survivals to hone positioning play and defence).
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