why do mermen have less defense in deep water?

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dtw
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why do mermen have less defense in deep water?

Post by dtw »

it's very confusing...
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turin
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Post by turin »

Deep water is the home of the sea creatures - cuttlefish, sea serpents, etc. Mermen are afraid to go out into the deep water. Also, when in deep water, the mermen cannot see as well, because in deep water you cannot see all the way to the sea floor, while you can in shall water (at least sometimes).

Gameplaywise, its because if they had better defense in deep water, they would move to the deep water, and make enemies attack them from shallow water, where land units have even worse defence than on sand.
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Dave
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Post by Dave »

It's mainly because mermen fight best when they can move around between the rocks in the river bed/sea floor. In deep water they can't do this as effectively, because the water is rather deep for them to swim well, and if they stay up near the surface they don't have anything to hide behind.

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Sangel
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Post by Sangel »

This has always rubbed me the wrong way, actually. Our current definitions are:

Shallow Water: Water shallow enough for land units to wade through.
Deep Water: Anything deeper.

At present, it seems like shallow water should be "slightly too shallow" for Merfolk to make full use of their swimming, while deep water would contain both their true favoured terrain and the "scary depths".

I'd love to see three categories of water:
Shallow Water (land units can wade, Merfolk are fair)
Deep Water (no land units, Merfolk excel)
Ocean (no land units, Merfolk are only fair again)

We could also use these three to broaden the distinction between Merfolk and Naga units.
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Darkmoon
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Post by Darkmoon »

Also... it seems various people have various idea really of what merfolk/nagas should be like.

I like suggestion of that extra level of water...


Personally I think merfolk should excel in deep water. Something like 15-20m deep(not very deep,.. okay.. but not shallow either) would be perfect probably. I believe that is the depth they should comfortably inhabit.. heck.. human being unaided can dive that deep(and deeper - although we are not talking about regular Joe here).





Merman - are water born creature that live under water, even deep oceans, but sometimes rise to surface to enjoy the warmth of the sun. According to some they are rather slow traveling on land, but for as long as they remain in place they can defend themselves pretty well. ((weapon, or simply... using their,.. errr.. appendage/tail to smash opponents; like some sea born mammals, water is their element but can hold their own on land.. albeit they are much slower))

Naga - a snake like creature, scales and all. It really is not meant for deep water, it could drown. Probably could deal well in shallows... but is generally earth born type of creature. Usually preferring caves(lairs) and lives on land.


Above is general from various RPG books... although one or two books also mention a "water naga." A breed of naga that prefers “fresh water� to land,… but even in that case its not meant for deep water. I suspect a typical Naga would be more comfortable in swamp/cave/land than in deep water, really.
Pythagoras
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Post by Pythagoras »

Here's how I choose to see the deliniation:

Shallow Water - water ranging from something a land unit could wade in to 20-50 meters of depth. In any case, a land unit can typically find at leas a place to stand when needed or otherwise can swim, and mermen can manuever over most of the terrain.

Deep Water - water consistently deeper than 50 meters.
stillnotelf
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Post by stillnotelf »

I would say that since the mermen CAN travel on land, they're requisitely air-breathing and amphibious by definition...This means that they would be more comfortable in shallower water (so can they surface for air) than in very deep waters.
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Darkmoon
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Post by Darkmoon »

stillnotelf wrote:I would say that since the mermen CAN travel on land, they're requisitely air-breathing and amphibious by definition...This means that they would be more comfortable in shallower water (so can they surface for air) than in very deep waters.

Actually.. they can do both. They can breath both in water and air(though lunags and mouth,.. and through gills), although a number of sources/movies restrict them to breathing in water given condition that they can survive for some unspecified(but relatively short) time on land.

In fact in a number of myths(especailly eurpean) mermans/mermaids were water creatures who without water to breath would simply die.


On other hand,.. Nagas being snake like creatures do require air and cannot breath under water(although being coldblooded could survive without air for longer than any mamal).
dtw
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Post by dtw »

the water is rather deep for them to swim well
lot of respect for you dave but that one won't fly with me :)

I do understand the potential AI tendancy to move the merfolk to deep water, so it has to be attacked from shallow but to me that is the sensible tactic. the reason why it fails is cos deep water is used too close to the shore. This is often to prevent the passsge of certain units.

Three types of water does make sense. If water is shallow enough to wade through how does it benefit a merperson? Arguably they could move better in it but it would be too shallow for them to swim in it.

deeper water would be better and very deep water wouldn't require anywhere to hide as you could be under the water, which is the best place to hide.
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Post by scott »

I can see how mermen could be painted to not be open ocean creatures. They are like reef dwellers who could technically swim in the open ocean but are not suited for it. Ever see Finding Nemo?

I don't know how they can fight in 5 feet of water, which would be about the max depth for shallow water if people can wade through it. Maybe they could - they need leverage to land strong blows against human enemies and could completely submerge. Then again, maybe land dwellers float across these hexes in a way invisible to us (like in The 7 Cities of Gold).

However at this point I think everyone (including me) is reading too much into it. It doesn't need to be realistic. The game rules up to this point have worked well. Defenses can be changed, but to improve gameplay.
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Disto
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Post by Disto »

Well also land units can swim but not too far out and only with little waves.
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Darkmoon
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Post by Darkmoon »

Not many land units can swim.... just imagine Iron Mauler attempting to backstroke English Channel. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Imo,... lets limit shalow water to 2-3(maybe 4 tops) feet or so.... considering that a number of humans are about(or a bit above) 5ft tall(especially counting both genders and all races), it is pretty deep.

Lets give both Naga and merms def of 60 in shallow water(cant swim well in just a few feet of water - and sharp rocks on bottom can hurt like hell), and then 70 % for merms in deep water(deep for land folks,.. might be perfect 4-5m or so for merms), and 50% for nagas here(because after all,... they are not merms - just land lizards that can swim, and not all at that)


When it comes to out of water deffenses, I believe Naga should keep decent 40% in most cases(its an upright creatre that can handle sword).




My suggestions

Mermen

Deep water: 70%
Shallow water: 60%
Swamp: 50%
Sand: 30% or 20%
Grassland: 30% or 20%
Forest: 30% or 20%
Cave: 30%
Castle: 40%

Where it says 30 or 20... 20 would make them outright cirpples on land,.. 30 just seems okay. Add perhaps let them surivive on the way to water...

Naga

Deep water: 50%
Shallow water: 60%
Swamp: 60%
Sand: 40%
Grassland: 40%
Forest: 40%
Cave: 40%
Castle: 50%

You see plenty of 40s because Nagas at core are land animals(that have liars in caves), further.. often times Nagas are depicted as type of cretures with upright front that can handle sword.... hmm.

Also, I also think,... that this break down would balance them out better. ((I still think that Merm hunter needs to have lowered power of range attack))
Darkmoon
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Post by Darkmoon »

There is already thread about specific defs on Idea Forum,.. should have posted these suggestions there. Come by,.. and discuss various proposed numbers... :D
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Post by romnajin »

I think that grassland should be decreased for all units, especially humans, because, even if you are not an elf, isn't it easier to defend yourself with trees to hide behind, than on an open plain, even if you were encumbered with armor?
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Post by Dave »

romnajin wrote:I think that grassland should be decreased for all units, especially humans, because, even if you are not an elf, isn't it easier to defend yourself with trees to hide behind, than on an open plain, even if you were encumbered with armor?
And that's why 'ordinary' human footmen get 40% defense on grassland and 50% defense in forest....

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