Discovery of Wesnoth

General feedback and discussion of the game.

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James_The_Invisible
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by James_The_Invisible »

kiss wrote:One unit with Ethiliel and that shamann adjacent and only healing form Ethieliel.
Do you want your unit to be healed by both Ethiliel and shaman in one turn? It is not working this way, any unit can be healed only by one healer (hm, more precisely one healer from its own and each allied side, at the beginning of their respective turns) in the same turn (probably by the one with better healing ability, in this case Ethiliel).
Shamann alone adjacent to an other unit and still no heal (It was poisoned but I cure it before).
If the unit is both harmed and poisoned, it can be just cured of poison in one turn. It will be healed in the following turns.
Last edited by James_The_Invisible on July 30th, 2014, 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss »

James_The_Invisible wrote:
kiss wrote:One unit with Ethiliel and that shamann adjacent and only healing form Ethieliel.
Do you want your unit to be healed by both Ethiliel and shaman in one turn?
Yes, and I have the answer, thank you.
Shamann alone adjacent to an other unit and still no heal (It was poisoned but I cure it before)
If the unit is both harmed and poisoned, it can be just cured of poison in one turn. It will be healed in the following turns.
My shamann can't cure, so I cure it with Ethielel and then try to heal it with the shamann, but nothing even afater some turns. As I'm discovering a lot of things, perhaps I'm wrong here.
I'll play again, and I think I still have that shamann in my recall list, I'll need it this time and be carefull of her healing actions.



Ok, Nothing more to say about the elf branch of The South Guard.

The result is here

Edit to add The South Guard - 6b. The Long March

This one was short, and not that much to say about it.

Edit to add The South Guard - 7b. Pebbles in the Flood

No idea how I've managed this new challenge?



@James_The_Invisible
I've raised this healing problem because I've never seen the flying number. I do not had the shaman in the latest scenario I've played and I do not like to let that aside. So I've look my backups carefully, the unit healed, I was wrong and I'm sorry for that mistake, I have so much things to learn.

Next time I have such shaman, I'll watch more carefully.
Thank you.




The South Guard - 8b. The Tides of War is finished and it's time to make a summary.

The Wiki says: "A campaign useful for beginners." and "is aimed at beginners on the easiest difficulty."
I found it is exactly this. As a beginner, I've had to deal with a lot of situations and fight a lot of various units. I'll say I learned a little while it taught me a lot!

Assuming this is the first campaign to play right after the tutorial (as discussed above) I think it would be a good idea to add comments about key points explaining each novelty. There is already some, but not enough to be a real teaching course.
If I remember well, Deoran was as new as me and a whisperer (dead grandfather or alike) could do the job quite well. I'm sure you catched such idea.
I've tried to put in light each discovery in my scenario feedback.

About difficulty now.
Of course we should need an official definition of difficulty like this on which everyone would agree.
Without such agreement, we all have a personal feeling, depending mostly on our previous experiences, and we judge accordingly.
This is why I've mainly rated with the easy 1. I do not think it needs a lot of explanations, even I'm not in the grid of the link above. No save/reload, no restart and victories.
I know I made a lot of wrong moves, taking often the worst decision possible almost all the long, but the problem is me, not the game.

Now, I could replay it with personal's objectives like: no loss, only use built units, ... but I think it will be more interesting to go on with an other campaign.

To start to get a grasp about strategy, An Orcish Incursion campaign seems a good target.

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss »

An Orcish Incursion - 1 Defend the Forest

Good idea to show where it is on the map with the crossed swords.

First time it is difficult for me to really find out if I do well or not because I lost 3 units. But I'm supposed to learn tactical and strategy and I can't do well at the first try.
Also I decide to continue, after all I nearly leveled up 3 units.

An Orcish Incursion - 2 Assassins

Hooo, and the travel on the map is even better! This is really a good idea.

I was planning to post the result of the whole campaign, but ... I've crushed my head straight in the wall! And it's painfull.
I've lost so many units in this one that I made a break.
First, I was about restarting the whole campaign. With such a loss it should be the worst play ever. To be sure of that, I decided to look at uploaded games, from the first scenario and from this one.

I've discovered that all was about shape!
Those using wrong shapes, as I do, lose a lot, while good shapes are clearly safer.
Looking at mine, I found that I was really near and thus decide to keep going on like that.
Here is the light !:
Perhaps it is a huge handicap I'll can't overcome? If so, I'll restarted the campaign.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by beetlenaut »

Actually most of the maps have journey and battle markers. I think TSG is the only one that doesn't. (And that's been fixed in 1.11.)

To win on this map, you need to use many shamans behind your troops. They keep the assassins' poison from having any effect, and when they level up to druids, they can cure it entirely. You also need to make the assassins fight you from the water so they don't have the good defense from the forest.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss »

@beetlenaut Thank you for your support.
beetlenaut wrote:Actually most of the maps have journey and battle markers. I think TSG is the only one that doesn't. (And that's been fixed in 1.11.)
Sorry, but I'm not sure to understand what you are talking about nor what it may change. Does it means AI don't work as it was supposed to?
beetlenaut wrote:To win on this map, you need to use many shamans behind your troops. They keep the assassins' poison from having any effect, and when they level up to druids, they can cure it entirely. You also need to make the assassins fight you from the water so they don't have the good defense from the forest.
I'm on the good way then?

An Orcish Incursion - 3 Wasteland

Ok, one more step!

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beetlenaut
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by beetlenaut »

The journey and battle markers are the crossed swords or dots on the map to show where battles are. What changed is that they exist on 1.11 for all the campaigns. Sorry that wasn't clear, but it wasn't a very important comment.

You may be doing it right, but I don't have 1.10 any more, so I can't easily watch the replay.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss »

beetlenaut wrote:The journey and battle markers are the crossed swords or dots on the map to show where battles are. What changed is that they exist on 1.11 for all the campaigns. Sorry that wasn't clear, but it wasn't a very important comment.
Ok, I think I understand now. Thank you.

An Orcish Incursion - 4 Valley of Trolls

Not too much loss. But I'm not sure that my poor army can go untill the end.

Edit to add part 5

I'm starting to think about the way to enhance TSG and AOI in their teaching games aspect for beginners, a kind of advanced tutorial's. Perhaps no one is interested in such help, and maybe my thought can't be applied to those campaigns.
I'll explain that at the end of AOI.

An Orcish Incursion - 5 Linaera the Quick

Well, I'm recovering a bit my handicap. And starting to be confident for the end ...

Edit to add part 6

An Orcish Incursion - 6 A Detour Through the Swamp

I was sure I had seen an unit able to move one hex more than authorized, but I can 't find it now. Next time I'll save the situation.

I know, I'm a bit slow ... I've discovered that all leaders can recruit.

Move, recruit, move? I've never tried until now.

Edit to add part 7

An Orcish Incursion - 7 Showdown

Campaign done.
I was sure to fail because of my early big loss, but ... are there a kind of internal table to adjust difficulty?

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss »

So far I've played the first two campaigns designed to be played right after the tutorial, read the early exchanges above.

I really learned a lot from them.
But I found it mostly came from me more than from the help provided. Most of all, I don't know if those two (TSG and AoI) are really created for such purpose and even less if other users like me need more than the tutorial!

In case they were written to be extended tutorial, I found they really are too poor. TSG should have more explanations about units, basic fights and moves, while AoI should have more about strategy.
Perhaps special campaigns should be created instead?

Of course it all depends on newcomer's needs and I'm far from being able to do it myself, but if needed I can explain in further detail what I am thinking of.
It also depends on how deep you want to present details. And too much help may ruin the pleasure of discovery.

I was also wondering if it can be a good idea to start with multiplayers games without going to far from campaigns rules?
I ask because I've been already involved in a game, I was observing and become a player, I don't know how. I said I do not know what I was supposed to do, and, after some minutes all players leave because I was too slow for them!
Saying that, I find strange this need of speed for a turn based game!
Maybe I should ask there for a beginner game?
It's not that important and I'm not sure to be ready for that.

Now I'll help that poor Konrad to recover his due!

Velensk
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by Velensk »

In general Wesnoth expects that you'll learn from experience.

Multiplayer has different dynamics than the campaigns. If you feel that the campaigns don't help you learn the game enough (I speak as one who finds the amount TSG and AOI on beginner give little messages annoying), then you probably don't want to be doing multiplayer for awhile. Multiplayer has not tutorial to it at all and all too frequently the people on the other end will expect you to both know what you're doing and to not 'waste' their time taking too long. If you want to try multiplayer it may be a good idea to explicitly note in your games title that you are a beginner so that they know what to expect.

The way you became a player is likely that somebody left the game and so the host slotted you in so that play could continue.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

ellyk
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by ellyk »

Hello kiss,
As a (almost) regular multiplayer gamer, I think it would be sad if this only experience would prevent you from retry it later.
Many games on multiplayer are in terms of gameplay similar to the single player campaigns, so, you may as well try these first. You can also find games that are totally different and need a knowledge that is specific to these particular games. It could be also difficult to play against human players at first, since we human tend to over think what we are doing, unlike the AI :hmm:

After many frustrations and losses, playing on multiplayer, made me raise my gameplay much more efficiently than playing alone. And if you are lucky, you can even find players willing to help you understand many things that you'll never find in a tutorial :geek:

Reading your posts bring me back memories.. We should never forget we all were beginners at first

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss »

Velensk wrote: In general Wesnoth expects that you'll learn from experience.
Nothing can be clearer, thank you. You all can forget what I've said about improving TSG and AOI to become a sequel from toturial.
Velensk wrote: Multiplayer has different dynamics than the campaigns. If you feel that the campaigns don't help you learn the game enough (I speak as one who finds the amount TSG and AOI on beginner give little messages annoying), then you probably don't want to be doing multiplayer for awhile. Multiplayer has not tutorial to it at all and all too frequently the people on the other end will expect you to both know what you're doing and to not 'waste' their time taking too long. If you want to try multiplayer it may be a good idea to explicitly note in your games title that you are a beginner so that they know what to expect.
Sorry, but it wasn't what I meant about TSG and AOI, I've learned a lot of key points playing both of them. And with my previous answer there is nothing much to say about that.
Velensk wrote: The way you became a player is likely that somebody left the game and so the host slotted you in so that play could continue.
Thank you. I understand now.
ellyk wrote:Hello kiss,
As a (almost) regular multiplayer gamer, I think it would be sad if this only experience would prevent you from retry it later.
Many games on multiplayer are in terms of gameplay similar to the single player campaigns, so, you may as well try these first. You can also find games that are totally different and need a knowledge that is specific to these particular games. It could be also difficult to play against human players at first, since we human tend to over think what we are doing, unlike the AI :hmm:

After many frustrations and losses, playing on multiplayer, made me raise my gameplay much more efficiently than playing alone. And if you are lucky, you can even find players willing to help you understand many things that you'll never find in a tutorial :geek:
Thank you for your encouragements.
How can I identify those "similar" maps? Are they the default I can use to create a game: 2p-Aethermaw, 2p-Arcanclave Citadel, ...?
ellyk wrote: Reading your posts bring me back memories.. We should never forget we all were beginners at first
Isn't this the most important?

ellyk
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by ellyk »

Yes, the default maps are all played 'normally', like many additional maps on the add-ons server too.

Most default maps are designed to be played versus humans, but you can of course try these against an AI. Nothing prevents you to download multiplayer maps and play them out alone first, to understand how they work. Generally, you can differenciate maps with normal gameplays when you get a leader who can recruit on a keep.

Hope it answer your question.

kiss
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by kiss »

ellyk, this is perfect, with a few words you open a wide world to explore. Thank you very much.

And I understand this now :
Velensk wrote: ... the other end will expect you to both know what you're doing and to not 'waste' their time taking too long .. .

Jabie
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by Jabie »

Personally I'd like to see the Tutorial end with an option that segues into HttT and allows you to keep the experience and recall list that Konrad built up. I can't imagine that it would be especially game-breaking to start HttT with Konrad on Lv2 rather than Lv 1.

Given that HttT is the showcase campaign I'd recommend using someone like Delfador to dispense expositionary tips, such as how to roll your troops. It's not especially intuitive that you can move a Unit 1 two spaces back, move Unit 2 into the breach that you left, then - providing you haven't ZoC locked him - carry on moving Unit 1 (either back for healing or forwards to finish off in a sacrificial gambit to finish off a wounded enemy). This is a pretty essential tactic, especially for any cave exploration.

Siege of Elensfar seems to be the scenario that usually frustrates new players, so this is one of the scenarios which I'd suggest extra tips are added too. (For instance, recruiting one set of units to capture the town and a second set from the town to twong the undead)

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max_torch
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Re: Discovery of Wesnoth

Post by max_torch »

There is something that the multiplayer offers that is far different from the singleplayer experience.. For instance, games like undead empire (which can be played single, but is meant to be enjoyed more with others) have different rules and will require you to think in a completely different kind of strategy. It is nice to do these special maps sometimes just to have variety. Also in my opinion, one of the ultimate training grounds for improving your single player campaign beating skills is to play world conquest, and to see the tactics that the other players are using; but you need to have agreed with the other player/s that you will take time to think about what you should move each turn, because some want it fast while some don't mind..

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