Enemy Units!

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dawn-tracker
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Enemy Units!

Post by dawn-tracker » May 25th, 2009, 7:40 pm

Hello everyone, I am new to the game just started playing a few days ago; however I have noticed that it seems like the Enemy units hit more often than your units, do more damage (to the tune of twice as more) than your units, and are far more numerous than the units you can recruit or recall. This seems very imbalanced to me, the last couple of days I have been attempting to beat the valley of the trolls scenario, I do not see how you can win this scenario, when at best you get a total of 5-6 units and you have to pit those against a score of trolls, you have not enough gold to recruit any additional units, and these things are like rats they just never end, and then you have the troll leaders with their hammers, they hit one of your units twice at 25 points of damage and they are dead, when at best the units I have had are only doing 7-8 points of damage and are only hitting with half of their attacks, I am talking elvish marksmen doing 7-8 damage with 4-5 attacks, sadly they are only hitting 1-2 times out of their 4-5, that is the short end of the stick if ever I saw the short end of the stick, the only thing I can see thus far is it seems to be really imbalanced in favor of the bad guys; I mean really IMBALANCED!!!!!!!

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Turuk
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Turuk » May 25th, 2009, 7:42 pm

Are you paying attention to terrain defense and using Zone of Control in order to trap and kill the trolls?
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by thespaceinvader » May 25th, 2009, 7:56 pm

You need to learn to use terrain, recalled units, slowing and magical attacks to your advantage. Having completed An Orcish incursion on the hardest setting multiple times, I can safely say that it's fairly well balanced for a novice-level campaign.

You just need to get some more practice. After only playing for a few days, you can't expect to become an instant expert.

And be aware that this can be something of a hot-button topic. Don't be surprised if this thread gets shut down in fairly short order.
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Eskon » May 25th, 2009, 10:32 pm

To be fair, that mission is sort of an unpleasant wake-up call for a newbie - I remember thinking "This is just too hard" myself. Trolls are scary. You probably need some more gold saved up and some shamans. Shamans transform trolls into mewling kittens - for one turn.

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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Kalajel » May 25th, 2009, 10:38 pm

Eskon wrote:To be fair, that mission is sort of an unpleasant wake-up call for a newbie - I remember thinking "This is just too hard" myself. Trolls are scary. You probably need some more gold saved up and some shamans. Shamans transform trolls into mewling kittens - for one turn.
QFT.

It is indeed a hard scenario, but not an impossible one. Try replaying the previous scenarios and try to get a better result in order to save more gold for this scenario. This might allow you to recall/recruit 1 more unit and this will help make a difference. Recall/recruit any unit with a power that bestows Slow since (entangle, ensnare), as the post above mine stated, this will greatly help.

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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Pentarctagon » May 25th, 2009, 11:48 pm

lol, nice avatar pic Kalajel
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Velensk » May 25th, 2009, 11:48 pm

If you are talking about the first scenario in Heir to the Throne then the idea is that you don't have to kill your enemies. You just have to be able to get past them. That said they are higher level than you and it's ussaly night around the time you engage. However your enemies should not hit more often than you unless you leave the forest.

EDIT: he's on the first scenario, he can't go backward to get a better set-up.
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Turuk » May 25th, 2009, 11:49 pm

He's talking about the 4th scenario in AOI.
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Velensk » May 26th, 2009, 12:12 am

In that case nevermind.
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by The Great Rings » May 26th, 2009, 5:01 am

dawn-tracker wrote:Hello everyone, I am new to the game just started playing a few days ago; however I have noticed that it seems like the Enemy units hit more often than your units, do more damage (to the tune of twice as more) than your units, and are far more numerous than the units you can recruit or recall. This seems very imbalanced to me, the last couple of days I have been attempting to beat the valley of the trolls scenario, I do not see how you can win this scenario, when at best you get a total of 5-6 units and you have to pit those against a score of trolls, you have not enough gold to recruit any additional units, and these things are like rats they just never end, and then you have the troll leaders with their hammers, they hit one of your units twice at 25 points of damage and they are dead, when at best the units I have had are only doing 7-8 points of damage and are only hitting with half of their attacks, I am talking elvish marksmen doing 7-8 damage with 4-5 attacks, sadly they are only hitting 1-2 times out of their 4-5, that is the short end of the stick if ever I saw the short end of the stick, the only thing I can see thus far is it seems to be really imbalanced in favor of the bad guys; I mean really IMBALANCED!!!!!!!
I'll repeat what others have said, and hopefully add something more.

First, time of day is critical. Trolls are chaotic units, which means that they will be strongest at night. Place your elves on defensive terrain (hills, forests, villages, etc) or retreat during night, and attack during the day. Also, how much gold do you have at the start, and are you grabbing lots of villages to get more? Oh and you want ranged units against trolls. Shamens are good, but I'd use lots of archers as well.
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by krotop » May 26th, 2009, 6:23 am

To add my voice to the choir:

I recall this scenario to be an excellent one to learn to not fight where and when your ennemy is strong, to engage an ennemy unit with the intention to kill in 1 turn, not to simply hurt, and to nicely use shamans (slow the units you didn't kill).

If you want to finish the scenario faster, one very helpful thing is to have previously leveled a shaman to a sorceress, to remove quickly from the game that 2 or 3 trolls you'd want to fight in mountains for speed purpose. But even without a sorceress or a marksman you have time, actually more time if you are patient and lure the trolls out of their mountain than if you go fight them on their field.
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by dawn-tracker » May 26th, 2009, 3:42 pm

I know it will take some time to learn some of the finer aspects of the game; I appreciate the comments, but I think most of them missed the point entirely! WHY? would the game mechanics pit my low level guys against ones that are of higher level, I have noticed so far that my units start out at first level, and the enemy units are either second or third, this seems to be an unfair advantage enjoyed by the bad guys, plus I see that their units do more damage and hit twice as often as my units, again it seems to be slanted in their favor, it doesn't make for very enjoyable play when your units get hit twice and die because the enemy's units are doing 10, 12, 15 or more damage, plus they breed like cancer, from what I have seen thus far I would need 700-1000 gold every scenario just to be able to recruit enough units to equal their numbers, again only slightly imbalanced right? Let us examine an Elvish fighter with a sword they get 4 attacks and do 4 damage, an orc gets 3 attacks and does 11 damage, that is for all intent and purposes 3 times the damage my unit can do, how can anyone justify this rational, not to mention the also have more hit points, pardon me but this seems patently unfair and severely imbalanced, and sometimes you just cant manage to attack the enemy from the cover of the woods, and as far as more gold is concerned, how would you propose I manage that, on a couple of these scenarios I start with a whopping 100 gold thats enough to recall 5 units, or recruit 6, maybe 7; and put those 5-7 units up against 15+ enemy combatants, these are not by any stretch of the imagination "FAIR" odds!

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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Turuk » May 26th, 2009, 4:08 pm

What difficulty are you playing on?

It's really not that hard, and yes, you are not always going to be going into what seems like a fair fight. Hence using your resources to their best effect and fighting from favorable terrain and TOD to minimize the enemy advantage.
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by thespaceinvader » May 26th, 2009, 4:16 pm

Also: if you feel you don't have enough money, you may have over-recruited or finished a bit too slowly in a previous mission. It might be worth going back and replaying the last mission a bit more quickly/with fewer troops.
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Re: Enemy Units!

Post by Caphriel » May 26th, 2009, 4:42 pm

I also started that scenario with about 100 gold. It's certainly possible. Recall several high level units (I think I recalled an enchantress, a sorceress, a druid, and two heroes, but it might have been two druids and no sorceress), and play carefully. The enemy should not be hitting you more then you're hitting them; you should be in good defensive terrain with 50-70% dodge against enemies with 30-40%.

Alternatively, go back and do the previous mission or two again, and try to get to this one with more gold, and more high level units, if you don't have any. This particular campaign, at least in my experience, lends itself toward developing a small force of high level units quickly and using them through the rest of the campaign.

Defeating an AI with more units than you shouldn't be a problem. Humans are better at Wesnoth than the AI is, although it has improved recently. If you're just throwing your units willy-nilly into the fray, which is what it sounds like you're doing, of course you'll lose. Wesnoth is a strategy game. Use the terrain, slow the trolls, and play carefully. I beat this mission with 5 recalls plus whatever you start with (I can't remember if you start with more than your leader; it's been a while.)

Alternatively...
dawn-tracker wrote:I have noticed so far that my units start out at first level
Given that you said that, we may have been making an incorrect assumption. You do know that you can recall units from previous missions, right? Anything you have at the end of the scenario gets added to your recall list and can be recalled for 20 gold, like a recruit. If not, that could explain your problem; leveling and recalling units is critical in campaigns. If you haven't been trying to build a recall list, you might want to start the campaign over, and try to level some units in the earlier missions.

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