Scenario Review: (UTBS) 5. A Subterranean Struggle

Feedback for the mainline campaign Under the Burning Suns.

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Shakiko
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Post by Shakiko » July 13th, 2006, 11:31 am

Well, taking into account that you are playing the leader of a tribe of elves who just recently lost their homes and thus their place in the world seeking for a new place to be called home....

would you rather prefer to help the side fighting to keep their ancestral homes ...
or help the side invading the caves for treasures not caring for the living place of the trolls ? :wink:


At least for me that decision was not decided by tactical reasons like "which faction is easier to beat?"
So if you're giving the dwarves an obvious advantage I think lots of ppl would still help the trolls.



On a side note: At least in my game the 2 eastern leaders (those I didn't interfere with for the first 20 turns after chosing sides) were equally strong - they kept themselves regularily down to 1-3 units on each side.

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Xandria
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Post by Xandria » July 13th, 2006, 10:34 pm

I sided with the dwarves - and must say that is not for my interference, they'd be very dead very soon. The troll shaman is such a huge advantage for the trolls that the dwarves can only whimper.

Also, I think the AI has problems with combatting regenerating units.
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Bob_The_Mighty
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Post by Bob_The_Mighty » September 7th, 2006, 3:49 pm

I enjoyed this scenario, it was tough but fun. I just thought I'd mention something that happened everytime I played it on 1.1.8

I sided with the dwarves, and round about the time the trolls cast their spell which makes the screen flash one of the troll shamen on the far right starts moving really slowly. He moves through cavewall and moves much further than he should do.

Has no one else found this? It takes ages, and is quite annoying.

Titou
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Post by Titou » September 30th, 2006, 2:55 pm

Bob_The_Mighty wrote:I sided with the dwarves, and round about the time the trolls cast their spell which makes the screen flash one of the troll shamen on the far right starts moving really slowly. He moves through cavewall and moves much further than he should do.

Has no one else found this? It takes ages, and is quite annoying.
Same animation problem for me.

About this level, medium difficulty : I obviously sided with the Dwarves and we couldn't beat the trolls.
Dwarf sided, please post a wining replay to show me it is possible.

Titou
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Is siding with the Dwarves an option ?

Post by Titou » October 9th, 2006, 10:22 am

Has anybody sided with the Dwarves and succeeded ? (medium difficulty)
Or is this senario unwinable unless you choose the winning faction ?

I like this campaign. I have enjoyed previous scenarios. But this one is a stopper.

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Zhukov
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 5. A Subterranean Struggle

Post by Zhukov » October 19th, 2006, 4:42 am

• Difficulty/Version: Medium/1.1.11

• Difficulty: 9/10 - Mostly because I joined the Trolls (then again, I don't know what happens if I join Dwarves). Yay for savespams.

• Objective Clarity: Crytsal

• Dialog: Decent.

• Challenges: Hell, where to begin. Using Lawful units on a dark map. Using bloody Elves against Dwarves in freakin' caves. Allies that were weak enough to be useless but strong enough to steal XP and get in the way. That's enough to be going on with.

• Fun Factor: 2/10 - That's only because I have a soft spot for Trolls. Otherwise it would have been -2/10.

• Changes: Right then. Judging by the comments in this thread, it would seem that this scenario was previously unbalanced in favor of the Trolls and that what I played was a revision that attempted to make it more even. If not, then I don't see how people can say the Trolls are advantaged. But if I'm right, then the changes went way too far.
The Dwarves outumber the Trolls significantly. Dwarves are better in caves. The Dwarves get an event that grants them 4 free Thunderguards and several 'automatic' kills. The Trolls can only recruit Whelps, but Dwarves can recruit level 2 units.
Against all this, the only perk the Trolls get are the squad of reinforcements. Meh.
IMHO this needs to be balanced out. For a start, I would reccomend giving the player control of all Trolls, not just the reinforcements. This would probably make more sense if control was transfered after the Shaman leaves. Allowing the Troll leaders to recruit level 2 units would also help.

anupamsr
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Post by anupamsr » December 19th, 2006, 9:06 am

I have sided with both Trolls and Dwarves, and trolls is much easier than dwarves. This is how: Trolls have good HP, way to go to troll leader is narrower than the dwarves. If you put a level three elve (or troll, when you get it, or ally's troll) backed with a healer, you can stop all the dwarves just at the two tunnels just above your castle. Dwarves also hit once, but Trolls hit twice. Plus troll Shaman has really strong range attack.

Siding with dwarves mean you have to fight with high HP trolls who will kill most of your backup dwarves in a minute.

But that could be just my experience.

PS: I am writing from my memory so it may have factual errors.

Imp
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Post by Imp » January 8th, 2007, 1:50 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Challenging, 1.2

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5. A troll whelp and another Sharpshooter died, otherwise it would have been 4.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Extremely interesting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The low defence in the caves.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

9. I greatly enjoyed this, holding the gaps between the chasms from the greedy dwarves while sending a task force around the flank.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Warn us to keep our crew together before going into the main cavern - the dwarves absolutely annihilated the trolls on my first time because I sent Zhul ahead while it took everybody else several turns to reach the cavern, by which time the dwarves had pretty much taken over and I couldn't even get out of the starting cavern.

(8) How much gold did you have at the start of the scenario?

About 100.

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Buddy Jimm
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 5. A Subterranean Struggle

Post by Buddy Jimm » June 18th, 2007, 5:41 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

"Normal", 1.2.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7(sided with trolls). It's never easy to trust the AI to do the smart thing when you're facing off against veteran units in their best possible conditions. Nevertheless, Zhul was a Shyde at this point and thus could float over the chasm, letting her take key potshots at the northern clog.

I did lose quite a few units in this battle, but never partciularly felt in much danger of getting overrun.

More event triggers continues the lesson of keeping your merry band together.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

The initial dialog doesn't seem quite right:

<Kaleh>Then let us hope the rest of our journey may be as uneventful as it has been this far.

This doesn't follow for me. Both the trip under the mountain and the journey in general were the opposite of uneventful, and I doubt Kaleh wishes further misery.

Also, I believe Elyssa's correction used to add that spiders were actually arachnids. Without that, it's not as much a clarification, but Nym still acknowledges it as such.

Rest seemed pretty clear, as I had no trouble navigating the story itself. The dialog and resulting choice between Dwarves and Trolls constrasts the more common use of dwarves as the "more gooder" side seen in most campaigns.

Something about those trolls makes me want to do some monkey business while eating duck soup.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

I think I cut the turn limit close (I have to think from memory, my replays are all "corrupt"). Cave battles for me usually mean a long clog where little combat actually takes place, followed by a desperate charge as I start to eat up turns and realize that the enemy is still coming forth and there's actually two leaders I have to kill. It was lesser so in this case, but the AI doesn't always buy your attempts to lure units to tunnel mouths.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6. Not bad for a cave battle.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

There's enough story to make it fairly interesting, and combat-wise the trolls at least are probably about the right distance away for the given AI. So unless there's an idea for something else entirely to happen here, probably nothing.

Troll shaman could use a fighting pose if it's not already getting one.

(8) How much gold did you have at the start of the scenario?

804

miekka
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Post by miekka » January 4th, 2008, 3:52 pm

1. 1.27 easiest
2. 7. I used a lot of cannon fodder too, attempting this the first time I ran out of turns. It feels much easier with the trolls.
3. Very clear, no problems with those.
4. Very good. The trolls seemed innocent at most, so that's why I allied with them, instead of the dwarves who would have been my pick otherwise.
5. Killing some tough units in an unfavorable terrain.
6. 6. It was fun helping the trolls! :) (and killing the dwarves :twisted:)
7. Nothing comes to my mind... maybe a melee attack animation for Troll Shaman? Heh, just kidding.
8. 529.

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Mist
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 5. A Subterranean Struggle

Post by Mist » March 16th, 2008, 2:52 am

Please note new set of questions in the first post and use these for feedback from now on.
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 5. A Subterranean Struggle

Post by santi » March 21st, 2008, 3:24 pm

Sided on 1.4 with the dwarfs and just narrowly missed the tunr limit. So I am replaying. My mistake was not observing where the bulk of the green and blue trolls were coming from and wasting time exploring. Plus going after stray trolls north instead of waiting for them.
Saving a couple of turns would do it, but these trolls shamans are tough(except for elyssa), and many!

pqueiro
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 5. A Subterranean Struggle

Post by pqueiro » February 1st, 2009, 2:40 pm

Well the trolls are the logical strategic choice; they give you units that plug your night-time weakness with lots of hp and some spiffy special attacks along with pretty much the same dwarvish mountain/cave advantages. What do the dwarves bring of new and interesting besides a one-off powerful attack that may or may not give you a leg up?
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Stedevil
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 5. A Subterranean Struggle

Post by Stedevil » April 10th, 2009, 4:20 pm

Just played the version in Wesnoth 1.6 (scenario version number not shown ingame) on Linux (compiled from source).

There is a bug that makes the game not remember the "sides" state between saves leading to the campaign in some cases being unfinishable from those saves.

If you load a save AFTER you chose which team to side with, but BEFORE the Dwarfs start throwing the grenades (I sided with the Trolls, but I presume the same bug exist in either case) then EVERY character on the map, whether dwarf/troll/elf, dies from the attack.

This naturally ends the game.

Reloading a savegame from before one chooses sides doesnt show the same problem.

thender
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Re: Scenario Review: (UTBS) 5. A Subterranean Struggle

Post by thender » June 5th, 2009, 10:58 pm

I just enjoyed the same bug as Stedevil on 1.6 running from the downloaded binary on a PowerPC OS X.

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