Scenario 4: Valley of Trolls

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FreeArtMan
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by FreeArtMan » October 21st, 2008, 1:53 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
easy
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Whery clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Interesting
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
No changes.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes. I has not whery good tactic to win this level. After some time I have found nice way to win. Before this level i have trained 1 3lvl and 4 2lvl + king and changed tactics. It was difficult level but that allow me make my tactic better.

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Turuk
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by Turuk » December 16th, 2008, 5:25 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
High Lord (Challenging) 1.5.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4. Not quite that hard, but having to be careful around trolls that can potentially wipe out a level two in a couple of hits makes for a challenge.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very nicely again, but the same problem with the Adviser not saying his lines.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not letting too many trolls attack one unit.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. Simple, small map, but the challenges posed make it interesting.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Like it as it is.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Nope.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Same problem as the last scenario, with the dialogue being a monologue.
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Teloss
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by Teloss » December 25th, 2008, 11:23 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easiest.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8. It took me five or six tries to complete, not including going back to previous turns via auto-saves to redo my moves. Also, like others said, the bottleneck tip was somewhat misleading. I ended up winning when I decided to ignore that for the most part.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear except for the cave mouth bottlenecking hint.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fairly interesting. I like the brevity of the plot in this campaign. It is short but interesting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
When I went to attack the blue trolls, the green trolls would grow in numbers far beyond what I could handle.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9. Once I completed the scenario I appreciated the challenge and what I learned about tactics along the way. Finally winning was very rewarding.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It might be nice to tone down the difficulty a little bit. If the trolls aren't taken out quickly then they become too numerous too fast and there's a zero chance at victory.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I was repeatedly outnumbered by trolls. I reloaded and restarted several times.
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AOI-Valley_of_Trolls_replay.gz
My winning replay.
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ubuntu_user1337
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by ubuntu_user1337 » January 2nd, 2009, 2:51 am

(1) Only the easiest.

(2) 8. I originally gave up, but then returned to play this scenario after completing other campaigns. I only won because I had specifically trained up units prior to Valley of Trolls. I won on about the last turn and I seemed to have limited gold despite receiving an early finish bonus for previous scenarios.

(3) Very.

(4) It's fine.

(5) Limited time and only just enough resources. Available units are too weak to fight trolls, because trolls have much more health and come in packs.

(6) I wasn't really playing for the fun of it...

(7) A decision making event or two.

(8) No

Daedal
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by Daedal » April 1st, 2009, 12:57 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium. (V 1.6a)
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear and uninteresting. I can't even remember what was written there.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Trolls hurt bad. Very little gold. Very few defensive positions.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. This is a great detour from the generic scenarios in this campaign. I like the idea of having to run the gauntlet here and making the best of an unfriendly map.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Better dialogue.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No. Just gotta time it so you're not swarmed in the middle of the valley at sundown.

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Zero_G
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by Zero_G » May 6th, 2009, 2:45 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
* Medium difficulty (Hero)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
* 10, because I still could not figure out how to pass it... trolls bash every unit of mine, regardless the supporting healers :(

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
* Very clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
* Nice storyline!

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
* Defeating the second troll wave is very difficult (impossible for me, by now...)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
* 7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
* Slightly decrease the overall levels of the trolls, because there are too many level 2-3 units IMHO

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
* The crushing of all my troops! :(

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
* I did not take a look at WML...
-=[ Zero_G ]=-

Joram
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by Joram » May 14th, 2009, 11:20 pm

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Hardest; 1.6.0

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7- Most difficult one in the game. Still not very difficult, in large part due to the fact that my leader was only 5 xp from upgrading; after that, he did super damage to the trolls on both ranged and his melee counter. I never lost the scenario, but I replayed it a couple of times to keep more units alive.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Still excellent. However, all of their talk about the dream land and the earth currents brings to my mind again the desire that things in Wesnoth were better defined. Why don’t we get talk about the dream word and the earth currents in any other Wesnoth campaign? Because it hasn’t been officially standardized in any way.

I realize that the devs want to leave room for people to make their own ideas, but I think that leaving things so vague and open-ended actually is counterproductive to creativity.

Anyway, that was slightly off topic.

I have decided that I really like having the narrator actually way what happens when you lose. Rather than just a few lines of theatrical groaning from the slaughtered character. I love this campaigns losing messages; too bad I've never had them come up. They're top notch, and would make losing once or twice rather fun. :)

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping my elves alive. My favorite unit this run through (an elvish marksman) has only about 35 hp; which is two hits from a troll at night.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8- Good fun.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I can’t think of any. It’s done well.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Nope.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
It looks good.
The Fires of Pride 0.3, a heavily story based campaign.
On hold while I try and finish my book

axelotl
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by axelotl » June 22nd, 2009, 12:44 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

High Lord (1.6.2)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

I found the discussion about mages a little premature here.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

I lost a sharpshooter early in the scenario. After that, I barely had enough forces to contain the Trolls. Only after a couple of promotions was I able to make forward progress, winning on the very last turn.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

This scenario is a big step up in difficulty from the previous three; when I played on easy (a while ago), I got completely stuck and couldn't complete it, which was frustrating. Some more trees might help.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No, but it was touch-and-go for a while.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

The WML itself looks fine, but I don't like the fake castle hex on the map edge. I thought it was a real hex, so I optimised my recruits/recalls for 1 on the first turn and 7 on the second. I discovered my mistake too late to try 2+6, so I had to recall one part-experienced fighter rather than recruit two fresh ones. :x
Don't axe a little. Axe a lottle.

monochromatic
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by monochromatic » June 22nd, 2009, 3:58 am

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
High Lord, Ver. 1.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2. It was delightful milking exp for my shamans and co. this scenario.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Similar to the previous scenario.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. As I said, it was a delightful scenario.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
More trolls!! 50 starting gold? It should be at least 100 or something...

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Nope.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Clear.


It looks like many people have trouble with this scenario. This is what I did:
Started with Erlornas (lord lvl 2) and a ranger: 186 gold, but can be easily done the same way with 100.
recruited a scout (to grab villages)
2 shamans
2 archers
recalled a sorceress and almost levelled archer

EDIT: Ha, I just realized the start recruitment is worth 102 gold. If you only have 100 gold, recruit only one fresh archer. I did badly place a new archer, and a troll smacked it to pieces in one turn :? . Archers and shamans with the "quick" trait have to be placed carefully, because they can die practically instantly from a single troll.

For the first three turns, I focused on getting villages for I was in negative income. On turn 4 when the trolls started attacking, I played more defensively, letting my shamans and sorceress slow the trolls and attacking them one by one with my archers and Erlornas. By dawn, the blue forces were destroyed (Trolls are actually almost defenseless, a couple a shots from an archer and it's dead). Recruited two more shamans in the blue leader's keep and and headed north. The green leader came out of his hole, so I quickly ZoCed him and took him out. I finished in about 14 turns. In the end, I had almost leveled Erlornas and had a marksman, avenger, enchantress, archer, and 2 shamans. The common mistake is to strike early and defenselessly, because a lvl 2 troll can win against any lvl 1 elf 1vs1 (duh). Have a bunch of shamans around, ALWAYS slowing down the trolls, especially the leaders. This way, the archers and co. will quickly wipe them out not to mention sorceresses and Erlornas.

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Mordocai
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by Mordocai » July 15th, 2009, 8:11 am

I'm not going to do the entire form because i haven't played this for awhile(will edit post later with all the info), but i found this very hard when i first started playing wesnoth. I came back after beating some other campaigns and playing some multiplayer, and had no real trouble. I lost only one or two units (level ones) and actually did use the bottleneck strategy. What i did was send high hp, high melee power units up to the cave(ignoring anything else) and stuck a healer behind them. In the meantime, my archers killed any trolls that had already gotten out. I was able to rotate the melee so that no one died, and after the first troll was dead, the second was even easier.

ftl
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by ftl » February 25th, 2010, 1:42 am

Mythological wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
1. Easy
2. Pretty easy after the previous ones. 4. Trolls played very aggressively but recruited little - an individual recruit would go out, I'd swarm him with ranged attacks, he'd die.
3. Clear.
4. Clear.
5. The troll leader can destroy pretty much any unit in one attack.
6. 4. I didn't think it added much. I found the tactics straightforward, and the randomness was of the kind that I couldn't really plan for - I didn't want to lose my guys, but when a troll leader has an opportunity to attack with 20-2, I just had to hope the AI didn't use that at a time when he could get lucky and take down a 40-hp elf. Not much to plan for - that's pretty much all my units, except the high-level AND unwounded ones. No matter how cautiously I played, there were sometimes times when a unit within reach of that guy had less than 40 hp. Sometimes he died, sometimes not.
7. Dunno. Seems like on harder levels it's a scenario where rushing in like I did wouldn't work anyway, so the play would be quite different.
8. 20-2 both hit, killing a valuable unit. Played more cautiously the second time, but still attribute the frawless victoly more to luck than anything.

cph
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by cph » April 12th, 2010, 10:25 pm

(1) High Lord (Challenging), 1.8.0
(2)

Trolls to left of them,
Trolls to right of them,
Into the valley of Death,
Rode the... 9 Elves.

I'll give it an 8.

(3) Clear.
(4) Good.
(5) This is a scenario, like Valley of Death, which requires a few restarts to find out where you are and try out different strategies. Initially I was thinking, due to the shroud, that I would need to scout and collect villages while finding the enemy, so I was scattering units out to grab villages and explore - bad idea.

Getting the strategy right took a few tries, but is satisfying once you have a plan that works.

I wish my scout had lived on the successful run, as it would have improved my income a lot; as it was, a troll got lucky and killed it on turn 3.

(6) 6
(7) It is quite a step up from the previous level, and so perhaps trying to smooth the gradient of the difficulty would improve the campaign. But I like this level as it is and making it easier would remove the need to get the strategy right, which is what makes it interesting currently.

(8) Losing the leader. Maybe 5 forced reloads due to losing the leader, including at least one save-load on the successful run; the AI is ruthless in throwing stuff at the leader if you leave him visible, and trolls' attacks have a high variance.

cph
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by cph » April 14th, 2010, 11:23 pm

cph wrote:I like this level as it is and making it easier would remove the need to get the strategy right, which is what makes it interesting currently.
So, my suggestion to make it easier is to make it easier to play the right strategy. Forest tiles next to and east of the two bridges would make it easier for the elves to swarm the east cave while stalling the west troll forces; easy could have hints suggesting this use (although I guess the shroud makes it hard to give such a hint at the start).

Jabie
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by Jabie » December 2nd, 2010, 9:00 pm

G-$ wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Losing an apparently impossible scenario that is supposed to be easy mode. Apparently easy campaigns are impossible while the harder skill levels are playable? I'm not sure what is going on but I think it is highly possible that this scenario was never even tested on easy mode. Quality craftsmanship there. As far as I am concerned, the very MINIMUM that should be done to test a campaign is make sure that every mission on every skill level is passable. It should also be passable by someone of that skill level...
I have to concur. I think part of the problem is the assumption of high levelled units. I had noticed this on the previous levels. I stormed through the first scenario, but, because I faced so few troops, didn't level my units up. In the second I got my butt handed to me, partially because I hadn't levelled up a Druid to cure the poison and so couldn't hold any kind of line. My opponent and I levelled units at about the same rate and usually ended up trading them.

In the third scenario I found I was routinely coming up against Level 2 units, whilst most of mine were Level 1. Thankfully this scenario wasn't too bad, as I could hide in the forests, screen my Shamans and heal whilst my opponent had to fight in the open (mostly) - which I guess is the whole point. I still lost took losess, but kept them to an acceptable amount and finally managed to level up and retain a few of my own Level 2 units.

And then onto Scenario Four - Valley of the Trolls. I'd previous tried this in 1.4 and got swarmed by Troll Whelps. The online guide recommends bottle-necking the trolls in, the scenario recommends fighting in daytime on the plains. Bottlenecking doesn't work - you can't get your units in position in time and a couple of lucky . Fighting on the plains isn't much better, as you tend to get swarmed too easily, and don't have much choice about time of day. You could let the enemy come to you, but they'd have so many villages - and regeneration is such a large advantage - that you'd be swimming against a tide of unending enemies - enemies that you pretty much need to kill when you target them, as otherwise they'll regenerate.

I might have stood a chance if my opponents, who are already at the advantage in this scenario, couldn't recall Rocklobbers. This would at least give me an edge (Ranged attacks) to counter my opponents advantage (Regen). With the Lobbers, even my cursory advantage is rendered redundant. Do I really want to risk attacking, knowing that one successful hit - even at 70% defence - will render me highly vulnerable to a counterattack?

My recommendation is, on easier levels, do not presume that players have an abundance on high level units. Assume that they will get their butts kicked and may sometimes scrape through the harder scenarios - and trust me, speaking as a beginner, if you only just scrape through a scenario, you really, *really* don't want feel like replay it just to "do a little better" I've done well enough completing the scenario without being penalised for not completing to a satisfactory level that will only become apparent in two scenarios time.

As a consquence, the casual player is unlikely to have high level units, especially early on in the campaign. Therefore, do not allow enemies to recall high level units early in the campaign either; later on, limit their capabaility to do so, based on difficulty level. The choice of skill level clearly indicates that the player has a lack of technical polish, so such assumptions are not unrealistic. By all means the end-of-level boss can be a tough scumbag - that's expected behaviour for an end of level boss gig - but on lower difficulty levels his troops should be cannon fodder.

monochromatic
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Re: Scenario Review: AOI 4 - Valley of Trolls

Post by monochromatic » December 2nd, 2010, 10:43 pm

Jabie wrote:
G-$ wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Losing an apparently impossible scenario that is supposed to be easy mode. Apparently easy campaigns are impossible while the harder skill levels are playable? I'm not sure what is going on but I think it is highly possible that this scenario was never even tested on easy mode. Quality craftsmanship there. As far as I am concerned, the very MINIMUM that should be done to test a campaign is make sure that every mission on every skill level is passable. It should also be passable by someone of that skill level...
I have to concur. I think part of the problem is the assumption of high levelled units. I had noticed this on the previous levels. I stormed through the first scenario, but, because I faced so few troops, didn't level my units up. In the second I got my butt handed to me, partially because I hadn't levelled up a Druid to cure the poison and so couldn't hold any kind of line. My opponent and I levelled units at about the same rate and usually ended up trading them.

In the third scenario I found I was routinely coming up against Level 2 units, whilst most of mine were Level 1. Thankfully this scenario wasn't too bad, as I could hide in the forests, screen my Shamans and heal whilst my opponent had to fight in the open (mostly) - which I guess is the whole point. I still lost took losess, but kept them to an acceptable amount and finally managed to level up and retain a few of my own Level 2 units.

And then onto Scenario Four - Valley of the Trolls. I'd previous tried this in 1.4 and got swarmed by Troll Whelps. The online guide recommends bottle-necking the trolls in, the scenario recommends fighting in daytime on the plains. Bottlenecking doesn't work - you can't get your units in position in time and a couple of lucky . Fighting on the plains isn't much better, as you tend to get swarmed too easily, and don't have much choice about time of day. You could let the enemy come to you, but they'd have so many villages - and regeneration is such a large advantage - that you'd be swimming against a tide of unending enemies - enemies that you pretty much need to kill when you target them, as otherwise they'll regenerate.

I might have stood a chance if my opponents, who are already at the advantage in this scenario, couldn't recall Rocklobbers. This would at least give me an edge (Ranged attacks) to counter my opponents advantage (Regen). With the Lobbers, even my cursory advantage is rendered redundant. Do I really want to risk attacking, knowing that one successful hit - even at 70% defence - will render me highly vulnerable to a counterattack?

My recommendation is, on easier levels, do not presume that players have an abundance on high level units. Assume that they will get their butts kicked and may sometimes scrape through the harder scenarios - and trust me, speaking as a beginner, if you only just scrape through a scenario, you really, *really* don't want feel like replay it just to "do a little better" I've done well enough completing the scenario without being penalised for not completing to a satisfactory level that will only become apparent in two scenarios time.

As a consquence, the casual player is unlikely to have high level units, especially early on in the campaign. Therefore, do not allow enemies to recall high level units early in the campaign either; later on, limit their capabaility to do so, based on difficulty level. The choice of skill level clearly indicates that the player has a lack of technical polish, so such assumptions are not unrealistic. By all means the end-of-level boss can be a tough scumbag - that's expected behaviour for an end of level boss gig - but on lower difficulty levels his troops should be cannon fodder.
In my opinion, false. This even level even on Hard is doable without any leveled units, though it is true it is much easier with leveled units.

The trick is SHAMANS. Those tiny kittens that can turn any monster into a kitten. For a turn. Slow is so powerful and useful here. Follow the usual tactics: Attack at day and retreat at night, your units are much faster than theirs so you can't complain. Stay in 60/70% def in the forest to attack them in their 30% on flat. Stick a shaman out and slow the trolls and range them out with archers and your leader (his name escapes me atm). Use fighters for defense and scouts to harass them from around and lure them to traps. I'd say the ratio between archers, fighters, scouts, and shamans should be something like 2:2:1:3. Of course on minimum gold you can't afford all that, but if you play aggressively one should be able to afford all that (it's only 125 gold, 25 more gold than minimum on easy).

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