Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
JakeCWolf
Posts: 20
Joined: March 13th, 2011, 9:02 pm

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by JakeCWolf » March 14th, 2011, 10:54 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Easy, Version 1.6.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Kill 25 Clansman, only a 6. kill all four Grand Knights without killing more then 24 clansman, a 10.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear, witty and intresting.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Killing the four Grand Knights without killing more than 24 clansman, and keeping all my good units and heros from being one shot-ed by lancer and knights.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

I give it a 4 out of 10.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I would personally add when you defeat a Grand Knight, all of his remaining troops and villages should be given to the player, turn non-hostile, or disappear, to making getting the bonus for the mission much easier, or atleast remotely feasible.

User avatar
Faello
Posts: 441
Joined: June 7th, 2005, 9:01 am
Location: Holy Office

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Faello » June 21st, 2011, 11:57 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Challenging (Champion), 1.9.6, no saves/reloads, 839 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5.<for killing 50 units in offensive>
X?<for defeating all 4 knight lords>

This map bonus objective is hard to achieve not because Lords of the Clans are undefeated or it's too risky to deal with them, but because even with a sharp offensive against them, player will most probably kill more than 46 units before he will be able to defeat them all. Even tho' I've attacked at full speed, I was forced to enter the combat vs. so many units that I wasn't even able to defeat 2 of 4 Lords <altough it was close>. It seems that bonus objective requires containing weaker wounded units like bowmen and killing only the necessary amount of opponents <all lvl2's>. Still, forcing player to play it ninja-style when 90% of functional terrain is grassland, with so many knights and lancers using kamikaze style attacks, isn't really how this bonus objective should be resolved.

Regarding Lords forces strenght - it's a dangerous combination of archers <lvl1&2> and knights/lancers. Their army is initially worth about 1000gp and their total fixed income is around 60gp per turn, so it's really hard to kill less than 46 units before taking down all 4 lords. I wasn't really interested in replaying this scenario to achieve it.

Finished in turn 19/47.

8 losses, 50 kills.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

It was good, I liked the idea of fighting the horse lords for their support.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Keeping my units safe from kamikaze charge-type attacks <succeded> and killing all 4 lords <failed>.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8.

It's difficult but I like it, unfortunately I'm a little bit too tired by HttT campaign at this point, so I'm not interested in replaying this one to complete the bonus objective :)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Raise the amount of Lords units killed before they surrender. At this point killing all 4 of them would require wearing down some of their units to 1 - 3hp points and ZoCing them with some lvl1's - sounds like a lot of work and bonus, especially when you can finish earlier and grab a lot of gold so necessary for a final battle, seems to be unworthy of player's attention.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.

Replay attached:
Attachments
HttT-Test_of_the_Clan_replay.gz
Test of the Clans replay, Challenging (Champion) difficulty level, 1.9.6, no saves/reloads
(89.68 KiB) Downloaded 255 times
The yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.

shadowblack
Posts: 368
Joined: April 15th, 2010, 3:03 pm

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by shadowblack » June 24th, 2011, 6:22 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.9.7, Normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 – if you just try to win
2 – if you want to win without losing any experienced units
5 – if you want to defeat all 4 enemy leaders at any cost
7-8 – if you want to defeat all enemy leaders without losing any experience troops

Initially I tried to avoid losses, but near the end gave up on that and killed them all, so overall difficulty was 6

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Killing all 4 enemy leaders.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I think it’s fine as it is

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No

Thoughts:
The main challenge here was to kill all 4 enemy leaders before I kill the required number of enemies. In the final turns I actually stopped killing enemy archers and just ran from them. Even so I barely did it – the final leader was also the final enemy unit I had to kill.
Attachments
HttT-Test_of_the_Clan_replay.gz
(70.4 KiB) Downloaded 260 times
You are a Dark Adept: You immerse yourself in the dark arts... potentially with great rewards...

podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by podbelski » June 29th, 2011, 3:25 pm

1.9.6, Normal

I find this map very annoying :( I started the campaign after playing Wesnoth for a few days, liked (most) everything but lost all my mood to continue after I just saw the map. I played several other campaigns on Hard difficulty w/o reloads, and finally forced myself to finish off this map. As Faello noted, you already grow tired from the campaign and it's a good spot to give a player just a final battle, but not another big map, pointless from benefits perspective, just with a great chance to lose many of your beloved units. Also, it's almost impossible to achieve additional objectives.

I end up reloading like 20 times, saying to myself screw it, I just want to finish this off quickly.

Not sure what's the best thing to be done. Probably, you can make this map optional, of course tweak it so beating all 4 leaders is perfectly achievable. If the player choose to not play this scenario, then clan lords join Ashevire forces in the final battle.

Skaithe
Posts: 25
Joined: July 13th, 2011, 8:41 am

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Skaithe » July 13th, 2011, 12:22 pm

(1) What difficulty level and Wesnoth version have you played the scenario on?
v1.9.7 Champion - Challenging

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8 - Because I realized I was killing the clan members too fast and wanted to recruit all the knights. I managed to send out some strike forces to pick off a couple and would've gotten them all but I didn't realize even a commander counts as a clan member, so when I left myself on one kill, killing a commander ended it. :P Oh well, 3/4 ain't bad. Not to mention, cavalry tears up the squishes, was tough keeping some of the squishier vets alive.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, I just should've paid attention to them a bit more. :D

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Another parallel with Tolkien. (Riders of Rohan)

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?
Getting all the knights to join.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None.
Attachments
HttT-Test_of_the_Clan_replay.gz
(69.95 KiB) Downloaded 252 times

User avatar
Maiklas3000
Posts: 532
Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Maiklas3000 » July 19th, 2011, 8:19 pm

(1) Difficulty and version? Hardest; 1.9.7
(2) How difficult? (1-10) 6 or less to win, but I lost all my non-critical loyals.
(3) Objectives? Clear.
(4) Dialog? Okay.
(5) Challenges? Not having critical units skewered.
(6) How fun? (1-10) 8
(7) Changes? None.

Screenshot and replay attached. My plan was to send a large heavy army to the enemy to the south, while a small elite mounted squad raced to dispatch the main leader in the southwest and Gryphons headed over the lake to assassinate the northwest leader. The plan did not survive contact with the enemy. The Gryphons were frustrated in their attempts to get at the northwest commander, as his large income allowed him to recuit a constant 1-2 units per turn. The mounted units took heavy casualties on contact with the enemy's terrifying charges, so the survivors aborted their mission and merged with the main army. The main army was forced onto a small rocky outcrop after defeating the first enemy leader, as shown in the screenshot. Although the plan to defeat all the enemy leaders was thwarted, the required headcount of 50 was reached on turn 20 of 47, ending the scenario. All non-critical loyals were lost in the process, but it doesn't really matter, as there is only one more battle ahead, so loyals don't count for much, and you need only 2-3 Gryphon Masters to win that battle anyway.

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Attachments
HttT-Test_of_the_Clan_replay.gz
(90.99 KiB) Downloaded 264 times

ayearhasgone
Posts: 56
Joined: October 28th, 2010, 5:36 pm

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by ayearhasgone » August 28th, 2011, 12:34 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Normal, 1.8

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Getting the required amount of kills, 7. Killing all enemy leaders, 10.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was alright.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not getting my important units blown away by lances.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. Trudging across the huge map really sucked, and watching the level 3's that have fought with me all this time getting blown away sucked even more. You could see my army shrink with every turn... it was sad.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Smaller map

jonadab
Posts: 148
Joined: October 7th, 2005, 2:33 am
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by jonadab » August 31st, 2011, 3:33 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Most recently, hardest difficulty setting, Wesnoth 1.8.whatevercomeswithdebianstableatthemoment. In the past I have played on the medium difficulty setting under rather earlier versions.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9-10, if you expect the last battle to be the hardest and are trying to preserve all your good units for then. If you've played the campaign before and know that the last battle is actually anticlimactic, and if you can emotionally stand to let yourself lose some good units now because there's not a lot of future to save them for, then that makes it significantly easier.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
That's all good.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The kamikaze lancers just keep coming. You stick out your expendable units' necks, and the lancers kill them, and you run in with your real army and range-attack the stuffings out of 'em, but now you need new expendable units for the next round of lancers. Every turn you need new expendable units to distract the next round of lancers. If I fought the way these horse lords do, I'd have won a couple of battles but lost the campaign a long time ago.

If you don't have at least eight hundred bazillion gold coins, you're going to end up having to stand your main army of not-so-expendable units in a traditional battle line and pray some of them survive the lancer charges. Some of them won't.

Covering the overwhelming amount of distance involved would also be pretty hard if you're trying to kill the enemy leaders, but you really only need to do that if you want some extra grand knights in the final battle (a boon of fairly dubious utility) or if you're one of those people who just feels compelled to achieve the bonus goals on all scenarios just because they're there. So I don't see that as a big problem. It's perfectly possible to finish without ever visiting the western two thirds of the map -- which is good, because the map is enormous.

Another thing about the kamikaze lancers: it can be hard to see when they're coming, because if your screen resolution is anything less than 1600x1200 you can't fit one of the lancers and the edge of its movement range on the screen at the same time. This is annoying mainly because it draws the player's attention to the game interface, when it should be focused on the game. I'm not sure what to do about it, other than maybe provide a zoom-out mode where all tiles and units are scaled to half size. If such a mode existed, this scenario should turn it on by default.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Maybe a 6? It's not *bad*, and the dialog at the beginning is interesting, but it's a fairly long scenario to slog through without a lot of variety, and the whole time you feel like you're losing even if you're actually doing well.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
IMO, this scenario would be a lot more fun if you had a few level-three gryphon riders. You could get around the map a lot more, for one thing. Also, a level-2 gryphon is currently just about the only thing that can keep up with a lancer on this kind of map. If the level-3 one could actually outrun them, that would open up interesting tactical possibilities.

So, if I wanted to breathe some fresh fun into this scenario, I'd try adding a level-three upgrade for the gryphon masters (gryphon lord, perhaps), and either restore one or two of the excised senarios (e.g., the one with the two mages, or let the player have the gryphons in Northern Winter again) or write in some replacement gryphon-exercising scenarios (something with a lot of mountains would be good) so that you have some good chances to get a number of them leveled up.

Oh, and maybe give the player that first gryphon rider (that shows up when the gryphons break their ropes in recent versions of the campaign) as a persistent loyal character (one that keeps getting auto-recalled if it doesn't die), so it can maybe AMLA a couple of times and possibly be tough enough to actually survive a lancer attack. And maybe give it (that one only) a bow. That would be a way more useful bonus artifact than the flaming sword.

The level-three gryphon rider wouldn't have to be a core unit. It could be available only in this campaign. It wouldn't be the only campaign-only unit.
I write Bible School materials:
http://bibleschoolmaterials.blogspot.com/

User avatar
PorkSol
Posts: 54
Joined: August 23rd, 2011, 2:10 am

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by PorkSol » August 31st, 2011, 11:30 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on? Hardest, 1.9.8, no save load.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5-6 to defeat 50 units
8 to defeat the leaders - took about 2-3 restarts, but I didn't want to let Moremirmu and my Avenger die so I restarted rather than continuing.
9 to defeat the leaders with really minimal losses - took about 4-5 restarts and I still lost one loyal merman, but I'm not a particularly efficient player. I think a better player could easily avoid losing any loyal units. (I probably could do it myself, but with full attempts on this map taking a couple hours, I'm not going to try again).
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? No complaints.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? Above average.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario? Preserving my veterans, not reaching 50 kills, lancers in the day time are a good challenge in general
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10) 8.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun? None. The requirement to defeat the leaders before reaching 50 kills is kind of gamey and can be a bit frustrating, but overall I think it still makes the scenario more fun by forcing you to play differently.

Image
After I ended up with ~1200 bonus gold from Underground channels, it felt cheap, so I went back and played the path to get Lisar the void armor instead. Little did I know that Lisar with void armor takes the difficulty of this map down a full 2 points. With Void armor and scepter of fire she intimidates the AI (rightfully so). The AI is so intimidated that they only attack her a) occasionally when they have several knights or lancers that can hit her in the same turn or b) in desperation, once their leader has been damaged.

That allows the following strategy to kill the leaders pretty reliably:

1: Lisar heads south with a very light escort to kill green. Once the initial wave of recruits is thinned out the escort can leave.

2: Lisar immediately heads over to kill black, no escort needed. Multiple routes work here, avoid big clusters of lvl 2 horse units, just in case.

3) Dwarves and expensive high damage units are recruited late and form a rearguard to make a stand here, wiping out the enemy's most threatening cavalry units. Dwarvish Guardians die to keep enemy lancers from focusing down the Dwarvish lords. Merman assist with finishing off the cavalry but don't accept charges during the day. After this battle enemy density drops greatly and you can usually deal with knights and lancers individually, rather than many at a time.

4) Light units + one dwarf + some fodder unit kill blue by baiting him out during the day. Opposition for this force is usually light. These guys are recruited early on.

5) Merman, light units and rearguard all converge on purple. At this point less threatening units are given targets to shoot at to make sure we don't go over 50 kills.
Attachments
HttT-Test_of_the_Clan_replay.gz
Hardest, 1.9.8, no save load, kill all leaders, only lose one loyal unit
(84.14 KiB) Downloaded 262 times

User avatar
Ninjuri
Posts: 167
Joined: April 28th, 2012, 2:59 am
Location: California

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Ninjuri » May 10th, 2012, 4:03 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
100%
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The fact that the clans want to test konrad before following him adds to the image of an independant type of people.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Keeping villages long enough to keep recruiting. They are kinda far so getting and keeping income became a problem.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
More spots for creative defensive formations like patches of hills and mountains.
Fate is against me.

devavrata
Posts: 79
Joined: August 30th, 2012, 8:59 pm

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by devavrata » October 25th, 2012, 10:57 pm

Content Feedback wrote:(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.3, Easy/Medium/Hard
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 - Not very difficult, but big, with many enemies - it takes some thinking to develop a strategy
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear, uninteresting. At the end of the scenario a secret is revealed and Li'sar is chosen to be the future Queen - the same treacherous, Li'sar from previous scenarios. Maybe in a medieval world Li'sar's right to the throne would be remembered - but then, it would also be remembered its previous treachery, and the blood she spilt fighting Kalenz, causing the loss of lives.
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Dealing with so many enemy troops, specially the knights because of their speed. It is hard to protect your weakest units when they are so much exposed to attack from the enemy knights.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
-

User avatar
naomi
Posts: 13
Joined: February 17th, 2013, 6:19 pm

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by naomi » March 2nd, 2013, 10:04 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

Easy and Medium.


(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10 - this was by far the hardest scenario in the campaign, and I was nowhere near pleased in knowing that all my guys would end up dead right before the final battle.


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear.


(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

I developed a fondness for the stubborn, proud enemy knights (even if they kept killing all my dudes).


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Keeping money and units was terrible. By the end of it, half my recall list was gone, and I had no gold.


(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

This was one of my least favorite scenarios in the whole campaign, and merits a 3 at the most. Because I really liked the horselords, I decided from turn one that I was going to defeat all of them, not only because I thought they might be useful in the last battle, but because I liked the dialogue and I get attached to pixels sometimes. I ended up with a ton of dead guys and one horselord to show for the innumerable sacrifices I'd made. The map is enormous, and with such a large number of fast level-2 units, the enemy can recruit a few tough units, grab a ton of villages, and have the gold supply to continue recruiting onward into infinity. The enemy units weren't too hard to kill, since I had Li'sar outfitted with Scepter and Void Armor, but they just. Kept. Coming.


(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Make it easier to get more villages at the beginning of the campaign, make it harder for the enemy to get villages, and maybe shrink the map a little? Please? The map is ridiculously large, and an army made entirely of gryphons just isn't reasonable, especially considering what an easy time the enemy has just murdering them all.

User avatar
Elfarion
Posts: 139
Joined: January 26th, 2013, 4:29 pm
Location: Göttingen, Germany

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Elfarion » March 2nd, 2013, 10:37 pm

@Naomi: I understand that this scenario can be kinda frustrating. I usually don't aim for all the Grand Knights. I only kill the one in the south with Li'sar using the Sceptre of Fire and Delfador. I recall/recruit as much horsemen as I can afford (and absolutely no unit I want to have in the final battle) and have them charge towards the enemy. If you don't mind losing most of your recruits, it's somehow funny watching all those mounted units crashing into each other. Optionally you can recruit a few Elvish Scouts or recall their advancements to soften enemies with their ranged attacks.
With this strategy, the only thing you have to worry about is keeping Delfador and Kalenz away from those Lancers during day-

Edit: It took me several restarts (medium difficulty, no savescumming) though.
"Each of mankind's steps towards tomorrow is a breaking of today's laws."
- Sergej Lukianenko

User avatar
naomi
Posts: 13
Joined: February 17th, 2013, 6:19 pm

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by naomi » March 2nd, 2013, 10:50 pm

Elfarion wrote:@Naomi: I understand that this scenario can be kinda frustrating. I usually don't aim for all the Grand Knights. I only kill the one in the south with Li'sar using the Sceptre of Fire and Delfador. I recall/recruit as much horsemen as I can afford (and absolutely no unit I want to have in the final battle) and have them charge towards the enemy. If you don't mind losing most of your recruits, it's somehow funny watching all those mounted units crashing into each other. Optionally you can recruit a few Elvish Scouts or recall their advancements to soften enemies with their ranged attacks.
With this strategy, the only thing you have to worry about is keeping Delfador and Kalenz away from those Lancers during day-
Thanks for the advice :)
I'm probably going to go back and retry this scenario, because I don't want to have to face the last scenario with a lonely Elvish Fighter and 6 gold to my name. I guess if I leave all but the green leader alone, it'll get a lot easier... I appreciate the help.
Goodbye, sweet horsemen. Oh, the life we might have had together... :cry:

User avatar
Elfarion
Posts: 139
Joined: January 26th, 2013, 4:29 pm
Location: Göttingen, Germany

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Elfarion » March 2nd, 2013, 10:54 pm

If you have any close-to-levelling-Knights, you can have almost as many Grand Knights by the end of this scenario as you would if you defeated the Clan leaders. (If you are smarter than I was and manage to keep them alive after levelling.) Also 1-2 Shydes to slow down lancers and heal your units come in handy. And don't forget to have Li'Sar providing leadership (She's Level 3 isn't she?)!

And note that (imho) a huge early finish bonus is worth more than 4 Grand Knights.
"Each of mankind's steps towards tomorrow is a breaking of today's laws."
- Sergej Lukianenko

Post Reply