[mainline] The North Remembers

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Whiskeyjack
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[mainline] The North Remembers

Post by Whiskeyjack » July 29th, 2015, 4:20 pm

Well since it´s exam time again and I should be learning, I finally took the time and sat down to formulate my problems with the storyline of some of the mainline campaigns between Heir to the Throne (HttT) and Son of the Black Eye (SotBE) which I have all replayed in the last weeks.

WARNING: spoilers for pretty much everything ahead

My main point of focus was the north and the Northern Alliance (NA) as the thing starting me on this journey was the prewriting for two campaigns on NA territory I was doing. For readability I have underlined all scenario titles of scenarios I consider to actually need a change. Other things are just rants from my side that do not need fixing. Sometimes I will suggest possible changes to the story anyway.
Over all most campaigns have quite a good and consistent story at this point, but the moment a Wesnothian army travels north of the Great River things start to get a little messy (HttT) or outright unbearable (Eastern Invasion (EI)).

Let´s start with Heir to the Throne ( with Northern Rebirth (NR) and The Hammer of Thursagan (THoT) included):
This campaign is mostly ok even in the northern scenarios with the few following issues:

Scenario 12: Northern Winter
Spoiler:
Scenario 14: Plunging into Darkness [and all following]
Spoiler:
Scenario 19a: Snow Plains
Spoiler:
Scenario 19c: Cliffs of Thoria
Spoiler:
Scenario 20b: Underground Channels
Spoiler:
Dead Water
Only a minor quibble on this one since the campaign itself is rather well written (and fits into canon far better than EI): Why are there necromancers and liches northwest of the Heart Mountains trying to raise undead minions while Mal Ravanal is playing all out war on Wesnoth? And how did they get there? The only good reason I came up with was that Mal Ravanal was not sending his people to specifically only the Mermen but that he was also attacking the whole north and that getting swimming undead was only part of the plan. The only problem this poses is that it would set Lintanir and the NA to fight Ravanal as well, furthering the problems with Gweddry & Co. travelling through the northlands without seeing anything of this, but at this point I´m almost willing to declare non-cannn on EI because it does not fit in with the rest anyway. More below.


Eastern Invasion
Finally we get to the heart of the problem. If one plays this campaign it soon becomes obvious that it was developed before any of the NA campaigns or at least before the canonization thereof. Thus the whole part with leaving Wesnoth does not fit at all with everything else. I would prefer to completely rewrite all scenarios between 5: Northern Outpost and 14: Approaching Weldyn as most of that story is weakly written. Nevertheless I will make an attempt to point out the problems and (the times I can think of anything) will make suggestions how this could be fixed.

Scenario 5: Northern Outposts & Scenario 6: Two Paths
Spoiler:
Scenario 7a: The Crossing
Spoiler:
Scenario 7b: Undead Crossing
Spoiler:
Scenario 8: Training the Ogres
Spoiler:
Scenario 9: Xenophobia
Spoiler:
Scenario 10: Lake Vrug
Spoiler:
Scenario 11: Captured
Spoiler:
Scenario 12: Evacuation
Spoiler:
Scenario 13: The Drowned Plains
Spoiler:
Scenario 14-18
Spoiler:
Son of the Black Eye
Some minor quibble to be added once I can get back to my own computer and find the time for it.

If you read all the way up to this point you are either a story nerd like me or really interested in Wesnoth stuff. Either way, you have my respect. :D
Last edited by Whiskeyjack on July 15th, 2016, 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by zookeeper » July 29th, 2015, 4:41 pm

Quick nitpick:
Whiskeyjack wrote:Scenario 12: Evacuation
So there is a bridge now over the Great River!?
It used to be, but now it's just a bridge off the island.

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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by Whiskeyjack » July 29th, 2015, 6:12 pm

Ah that explains my confusion. The difference between the campaign dialogue site and my playthrough. I remembered it coming from the island (I wondered what that bridge was doing on an abandoned island during my playthrough) I guess the movement of the bridge was done because of the above mentioned points, but this opened a new problem: Beforehand the Heart Mountains where dealt with by travelling through the Orcish cave system. Now we have a) a big cave system on an island in Lake Vrug and b) the second time of crossing the Heart Mountains by way of magical flying unicorns (or whatever the trick is).
If someone comes up with a decent explanation for a bridge over the Great River I´d actually prefer that one I guess. Another way would be to add a between scenarios dialogue that tells how they are found by Knalgan Dwarves and led through the tunnels after excaping Lake Vrug.
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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by lonebeast » July 30th, 2015, 11:33 am

This may be an offtopic and you may disagree with me, but I think that Eastern Invasion is totally the worst mainline campaign ever. (And that's not only because level designers hated their players' guts and wanted said players to restart a mission because they had to wander by guess looking for enemy base or a way out or because an undead force suddenly appeared on the battlefield). When I was playing EI, I did not understand why the main characters venture into Northlands instead of going to Wesnoth and warning their king... to me, it seemed like they were wasting their time (and mine, too) doing some unexplained stuff. Yes, eventually Dacyn explains that he knew since the very beginning that Mal-Ravanal is unbeatable, and all this journey was to reach the forgotten school of magic near Lake Vurg... but this raises even more questions. First, why Dacyn only briefly explains his actions and why Gweddry and Owaec follow him unquestioningly? Second, how did Dacyn know that in this particular forgotten school of magic he will find a clue to defeating Mal-Ravanal? (He must've been absolutely sure about that, or the risk of venturing so far into Northlands would be too great). Yes, Dacyn is wise and he knows Mal-Ravanal since he was still a human mage, but he does not bother to explain his actions and it looks like he is using Gweddry and Owaec (and me, the player) as his unwitting pawns. To me, the whole EI storyline makes no sense until a few last scenarios.

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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by zookeeper » July 30th, 2015, 12:05 pm

Well, add to that the fact that the school of magic and the null stone were 100% retcons to give at least some reason or payoff for their actions. :lol: Originally it was just completely random:
Dacyn in Wesnoth 1.0 wrote:[...]have all the villagers follow us into the northlands, and perhaps establish a new country. Wesnoth is no longer safe.
And then they go to Lake Vrug, because...
Dacyn in Wesnoth 1.0 wrote:There is a valley near here, past the northern mountains, where we may be able to live.
But oh no, who could have known that there are orcs in the Northlands? Luckily they manage to escape...
Gweddry in Wesnoth 1.0 wrote:Good, we have escaped from these orcs. Now we have to go south.
Several weeks later...
Gweddry in Wesnoth 1.0 wrote:Dacyn, so, what are we doing back in Wesnoth? I thought you said we had to escape from the Undead!
Dacyn in Wesnoth 1.0 wrote:Well, yes... but the orcs were stronger than I thought. We can't go north, to the east is where the undead came from, and to the west is the sea, but we have no boats. We don't have any escape routes. So, we might as well try to save Wesnoth, since we have no other choice.
Owaec in Wesnoth 1.0 wrote:That makes sense. It's what I wanted to do all along, save the homeland.

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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by Whiskeyjack » July 30th, 2015, 12:14 pm

@Ionebeast:
You will find most of your sentiments about story mirrored in my posts distributed over the different scenarios. The main reason I wrote that post is that I too feel that EI does not hold up to the standards of other campaigns and that it does not fit in with the rest of current mainline.
But my post was not meant as a complaint but to start a discussion how this could be improved. You are welcome to make suggestions how this campaign should be changed or what you think of my ideas. My overall goal is to strengthen the connections between campaigns and solve some inconsistencies that exist between them.

@zookeeper:
This was written before your post:
With the past activity in this subforum, my hopes that a lively discussion will take place are quite low (especially since my start post is a 3k word essay :? ). Should I later try to approach the maintainers of the different campaigns directly (since I´m willing to help as much on this as is in my ability) or would that be considered intrusive meddling and I just have to hope that they read this and are convinced by my points to take action? I do suggest some mayor changes based on my personal opinion so I´m really not quite sure how I should approach this.
About your post:
Hm, I guess the current version does hold quite some improvements over that :lol:
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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by lonebeast » July 30th, 2015, 2:13 pm

Unfortunately, the whole Northern Alliance stuff is terra incognita for me: I never got past the first mission of Northern Rebirth, where you have to fight orcs with 0lvl units and I don't know anything about the Alliance. :oops: It seems like the Alliance was supposed to be a major player on the map of Great Continent, but the whole Northern Alliance stuff was added like a fifth wheel in the cart and this caused contradictions to other campaign stories.

If you ask about my suggestions... I honestly don't know how to improve the EI campaign without completely rewriting a major part of the campaign and completely replacing several scenarios. But if I try to imagine the Eastern Invasion "as it should be", then I would suggest the following changes:

After Gweddry, Dacyn and Owaec abandon their outposts, instead of fleeing into Northlands, they go to Wesnoth to warn the king about impeding undead army. Dacyn tells the king about Mal-Ravanal, his teleportation ability and says that to defeat the lich he must find the abandoned school of magic near the Lake Vrug. With king's permission, the heroes venture into Northlands.
There, of course, they must meet the people of the Northern Alliance.
If the dragon's appearance in Drowned Plains seems too "deus ex machina"-esque, the obtaining of the Null Stone could be completely different. As far as I remember, this is the same dragon that appeared in Sceptre of Fire, so it would be only natural for him to be somewhere in Knalgan caves.

If we want to choose the "the less changes, the better" path, I suggest rewriting the dialogue lines. Namely: before going North Dacyn explains his plan: that Mal-Ravanal is unbeatable, and he must find that school of magic to learn how to defeat him. Gweddry and Owaec say that they must warn the king first, but Dacyn says that king Konrad won't give them the permission to go North (which sounds possible to me) and they must act without king's order. Eventually, the heroes return to Wesnoth in time to save the kingdom, but instead of reward they face tribunal for "going AWOL" and only for saving Wesnoth they are pardoned and not punished. Not every heroic deed gets rewarded. :twisted:

To my mind, the main problem with EI story is that Dacyn knows what he's doin since the very first mission but doesn't bother himself with explaining it to Gweddry, Owaec and, most importantly, the player, so I feel like, at the very least, Gweddry and Owaec should at least on several occasions stop and ask Dacyn: "What the hell are we doing, actually?"~or "Why can't we go to Wesnoth?".

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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by Whiskeyjack » July 31st, 2015, 11:39 am

@Ionebeast: You find a short summary of the NA campaigns stories in the spoiler. Read it or not, depending on your spoiler preferences ;)
Spoiler:
As I see it, we have the following 4 suggestions for restructuring the story of EI:

1. Completely overwrite the whole campaign between scenarios 5 and 14 and replace the whole Lake Vrug/Null Stone story line. (A lot of work)

2. Change the story so they travel first to Weldyn and consult the king, then travel to Lake Vrug afterwards, asking the people of the NA for help beforehand. (Also a lot of work but probably less than nr. 1)

3. Change the story so that Dacyn reveals his plan already in scenario 5 and they either decide it is more important to find a way of killing Ravanal than warning the king (they could also just send a couple of mounted messengers) or they conclude that the king won´t allow their quest for the wilderness and decide to travel north without asking. (Mostly dialogue work with some changes to the scenario problems I mention above like removing/reworking Xenophobia)

4. Change the story in scenarios 7a/b so that they are driven north by the undead forces and find themselves without a way to return to Wesnoth directly and the only option to cross the Great River at which point Dacyn decides that if they are forced into the northlands anyway they can take that as an opportunity to search for a way to beat Ravanal -> Lake Vrug. (About the same amount of work as nr. 3)

Options 2 to 4 might or might not include a different way of obtaining the Nullstone. I believe it could be done by rewriting some dialogue lines so that it seems like less of a deus ex machina.

At the moment I tend towards nr. 4 if one wants the easier option and nr. 1 if someone is willing to put in all the work, but that would probably exceed my current ability so I would only be able to assist with that.

@Zookeeper: And that still leaves the question what should be done at all and how far I´m overstepping my bounds here, not being the maintainer and all that. Are you the maintainer of EI at the moment (I think you answered my bug report on scenario 11: Captured)? What do you think of this?
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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by zookeeper » August 1st, 2015, 12:12 am

I've been meaning to write a reply all day, but always get side-tracked by something else. :doh: I'll try to do so the first thing tomorrow...

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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by zookeeper » August 1st, 2015, 6:51 pm

Whiskeyjack wrote:@Zookeeper: And that still leaves the question what should be done at all and how far I´m overstepping my bounds here, not being the maintainer and all that. Are you the maintainer of EI at the moment (I think you answered my bug report on scenario 11: Captured)? What do you think of this?
Officially, I guess I am. Although that's not because I actually work on it actively at all, but more because I'm usually available to fix serious bugs so I might as well be called the maintainer. Bumbadadabum has been doing lots of EI tweaking this year (balance, maps, etc), but I don't know if he has interest in or objections to bigger rewrites. Anyway, I agree that it'd be great if more sanity could be injected into EI's storyline, so as far as I'm concerned don't worry about bounds.
Whiskeyjack wrote:As I see it, we have the following 4 suggestions for restructuring the story of EI:

1. Completely overwrite the whole campaign between scenarios 5 and 14 and replace the whole Lake Vrug/Null Stone story line. (A lot of work)

2. Change the story so they travel first to Weldyn and consult the king, then travel to Lake Vrug afterwards, asking the people of the NA for help beforehand. (Also a lot of work but probably less than nr. 1)

3. Change the story so that Dacyn reveals his plan already in scenario 5 and they either decide it is more important to find a way of killing Ravanal than warning the king (they could also just send a couple of mounted messengers) or they conclude that the king won´t allow their quest for the wilderness and decide to travel north without asking. (Mostly dialogue work with some changes to the scenario problems I mention above like removing/reworking Xenophobia)

4. Change the story in scenarios 7a/b so that they are driven north by the undead forces and find themselves without a way to return to Wesnoth directly and the only option to cross the Great River at which point Dacyn decides that if they are forced into the northlands anyway they can take that as an opportunity to search for a way to beat Ravanal -> Lake Vrug. (About the same amount of work as nr. 3)

Options 2 to 4 might or might not include a different way of obtaining the Nullstone. I believe it could be done by rewriting some dialogue lines so that it seems like less of a deus ex machina.

At the moment I tend towards nr. 4 if one wants the easier option and nr. 1 if someone is willing to put in all the work, but that would probably exceed my current ability so I would only be able to assist with that.
It's hard to put your above suggestions in a particular order of preference, because the effort required varies massively. If the whole campaign could be rewritten from scratch, only keeping the main ideas and current characters, then that has the most potential to fix everything, but obviously that'd be a big task.

Aside from that, I'd very much want to avoid them heading to Weldyn first and then back and forth on a separate MacGuffin chase, and instead keep the current structure of the whole campaign being a long detour towards Weldyn. So, I'd avoid that part from 2.

As for 3 and 4... sure, those ideas could work. Some additional brainstorming you might pick some ideas from:

Lake Vrug seems like an odd destination to pick, regardless of whether there's a mage school there or not. Except if for example that's where Ravanal is from, and has sent one of his lieutenants there, meaning that there's something there that he wants, meaning that you have to get there first and then have a mid-campaign showdown with said lieutenant before returning to Wesnoth with the MacGuffin. Sounds like something the NA could tie into.

In addition to the Null Stone or whatever other MacGuffin they need to retrieve, another major point (or even the original objective) of going north could be precisely to get the NA to help. Since Ravanal waged a pretty quick blitzkrieg, they probably would be largely unaware of what exactly is going on in Wesnoth, but obviously they'd have a vested interest in not having a Wesnoth-sized undead empire as their southern neighbour. The last stretch of the campaign could then involve dwarves, drakes, orcs or whatever else fits the bill in order to make the final battles more varied.

If the northern detour is kept, then I'd definitely try to involve the NA somehow.

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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by Whiskeyjack » August 2nd, 2015, 1:57 pm

I like the idea of trying to get the NA to help. But I think they should not get it (or only temporarily while they are in the north) for the following reasons:
I feel like EI was designed with the clear goal of having an only human campaign with one other unit type, namely Ogers. That made it different from campaigns like NR, HttT or to a smaller extend TRoW. Those campaigns amass a big variety of units from which to pick and you can pretty much play whatever you want. EI is one of the few long campaigns with a very limited unit pool and I think it should stay that way. It was just different gameplay-wise because for example you had to carefully consider how to distribute the Ankhs you can find throughout the campaign, as doing everything with mages alone is quite hard (lacking the frontline).
But the NA could be a good way to explain the travels through the mountains (using the Dwarvish tunnels).

What is your opinion on a smaller scaled attack on the north? I think otherwise the attack on the Mermen in DW would be to separated from his all out offensive on Wesnoth. I also think this could give a credible reason why the NA does not help them on a larger scale: Most forces of the NA and Lintanir are bound by undead troops.
It could also be said (if we stick to that route) that two lieutenants of Ravanal were sent to the north separately from that force: One with the objective to deadify the Mermen and attack Wesnoth from sea later on and the other to lake Vrug to find the secrets hidden there/destroy everything that could be found (as I also said in my first post, I do not think in that case it should be a school of Human mages). While racing and fighting that lieutenant he could drop some lines boasting about the might of his lord "even resurrecting ancient dragons" (-> foreshadowing for Krahkrahs, if we stay with that route - I do not think it is bad per se, just needs to be better integrated).

I have two tests left tomorrow and on Wednesday, but after that I would be willing to do all the work you want me to do and I am capable of.
I do not have experience with balancing or WML at this point (one of the reasons I planned to write the campaign I mentioned a couple of times was to get more into WML with a "standard" project, before working on other ideas I have). Therefore I am not sure if I could build mainline quality scenarios from scratch and balance new scenarios in the campaign in detail. I am relatively confident that I can write dialogue lines and overall story if you want me to and do smaller tweaking on the WML side. I think I will propose one or two concrete new settings of the campaign towards the end of the week (following options 3/4 or a bigger rework respectively).
I am also willing to design maps and all the other stuff, but only wanted to say that they might not turn out good enough.

What do you think of my points on HttT (mostly the Arkan-thoria parts, see spoiler below)? I believe connecting the random Wesnothian army and the quest to Lake Vrug by a mysterious place of power in the heart mountains (could be old monoliths or something) and thus both strengthening the connection between the campaigns and the credibility of both stories. Setting Mal-Ravanals origin in the Heart Mountains (he could have learned the basics at the school of mages that is shown in THoT before coming to Weldyn) would also give a reason why he knows of that places existance and sends one of his lieutenants.
Spoiler:
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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by zookeeper » August 2nd, 2015, 11:56 pm

Whiskeyjack wrote:I like the idea of trying to get the NA to help. But I think they should not get it (or only temporarily while they are in the north) for the following reasons:
I feel like EI was designed with the clear goal of having an only human campaign with one other unit type, namely Ogers. That made it different from campaigns like NR, HttT or to a smaller extend TRoW. Those campaigns amass a big variety of units from which to pick and you can pretty much play whatever you want. EI is one of the few long campaigns with a very limited unit pool and I think it should stay that way. It was just different gameplay-wise because for example you had to carefully consider how to distribute the Ankhs you can find throughout the campaign, as doing everything with mages alone is quite hard (lacking the frontline).
But the NA could be a good way to explain the travels through the mountains (using the Dwarvish tunnels).
Right, I hadn't really thought about it that way. It makes sense that the player's recruit list shouldn't become too wide and varied. However, I don't think that rules out AI allies? They wouldn't even need to make an appearance in all scenarios.
Whiskeyjack wrote:What is your opinion on a smaller scaled attack on the north? I think otherwise the attack on the Mermen in DW would be to separated from his all out offensive on Wesnoth. I also think this could give a credible reason why the NA does not help them on a larger scale: Most forces of the NA and Lintanir are bound by undead troops.
It could also be said (if we stick to that route) that two lieutenants of Ravanal were sent to the north separately from that force: One with the objective to deadify the Mermen and attack Wesnoth from sea later on and the other to lake Vrug to find the secrets hidden there/destroy everything that could be found (as I also said in my first post, I do not think in that case it should be a school of Human mages). While racing and fighting that lieutenant he could drop some lines boasting about the might of his lord "even resurrecting ancient dragons" (-> foreshadowing for Krahkrahs, if we stay with that route - I do not think it is bad per se, just needs to be better integrated).
Sounds ok to me.

Additionally, I think large-scale assistance from the NA and elves could be written off simply due to news traveling slowly, them being rather isolated and especially elves being slow to mobilize. Ravanal's campaign is really quick and probably (correctly) calculated to take Weldyn before any such outside help would get there. Even if Gweddry and co meet one of the NA leaders in person, it could conceivably take too much time to amass a proper army, and even then you'd probably have elves insisting on pondering about it for quite a while, orcs just not being very enthusiastic about helping their traditional enemies, and so on. So they'd really just need to take whatever help they could get and head back to Wesnoth ASAP. The role of the NA could simply be to hasten the return journey by providing tunnels, scouts and escort, and to help Gweddry and co breach the undead lines to reach Weldyn.

The events of DW don't really seem to make much sense in context, but on the other hand, the undead detachment that attacked Jotha was probably pretty small and not of great importance to Ravanal's plan.
Whiskeyjack wrote:What do you think of my points on HttT (mostly the Arkan-thoria parts, see spoiler below)? I believe connecting the random Wesnothian army and the quest to Lake Vrug by a mysterious place of power in the heart mountains (could be old monoliths or something) and thus both strengthening the connection between the campaigns and the credibility of both stories. Setting Mal-Ravanals origin in the Heart Mountains (he could have learned the basics at the school of mages that is shown in THoT before coming to Weldyn) would also give a reason why he knows of that places existance and sends one of his lieutenants.
Spoiler:
I don't know, I'm not very enthusiastic about potentially compromising other campaigns' plots in order to accommodate that branch, especially when it's entirely possible it'll never be finished and might be permanently removed. If it happens that a plan which makes everything fit is as good as any other, then sure let's pick that one, but other than that I don't think it really warrants a cross-campaign explanation. There's all sorts of reasons one could come up with for why the Wesnothian army was there during HttT.

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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by Whiskeyjack » August 5th, 2015, 10:19 pm

Hey, I´m not making as much progress as I´d like but I hope I will make it until the end of the week. I´m replaying the campaign again and do my planning for the dialogues and other changes alonside this and I came up with the following solution to the whole Lake Vrug/Krahkrahs/teleport dilemma and would be very interested to get your thoughts on this:

In NR there are the two immortal mages Father Morvin and Sister Thera. In the scenario you first find them, you have to get their help to defeat the Lich Malifor who just happens to revive and teleport away every time you kill him with any unit other than those two. It is also said at the end of the campaign that they stayed with Tallin to advise the Lord Protector of the NA.
My setting is this: Mal-Ravanal grew up in the school of mages from THoT (or somewhere else on NA territory) before he came to Anduin. There he heard the stories of those legendary mages and their deeds. By the time he turns Lich they have retired from their job and built a small house somewhere in the Heart Mountains. He thinks that their knowledge is a threat to his personal defences and sends one of his most trusted lieutenants to kill them or at least render them harmless.
Through their encounters with said lieutenant and the info they get from the NA after their plea for help Gweddry & Co. discover this and set out to stop the lieutenant (this could be the one/couple scenario(s) with NA allies -> totally didn´t think about allies earlier, great idea!). After they succeed Dacyn learns from the two how to counteract the Lichs magic.

Since I´m currently trying to compose the lesser rework (I really lack the experience for a complete overhaul) I thought I´d mostly plan scenarios that are similar in scale and structure to the ones they would replace in the current version as this should help a great deal with balancing them.
One thing I plan to do for example is to keep Krahkrahs in the game and have him rampaging across the Plains. They have to confront him on their way south, but without the whole Nullstone thing.
Last edited by Whiskeyjack on August 18th, 2015, 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by max_torch » August 6th, 2015, 12:38 am

I would just like to share a suggestion I made on the 'Mal-Ravanal's Capital' thread:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 15#p584630
IMO Mal-Ravanal's character is really that of a cheater/backstabber ala Loki, like a sly devil whose cheating, dishonorable ways are really detestable. It would be nice if you could set up a story in such a way that by the end of it the players really hate him so much so that by the time we kill him it would be so much more satisfying when we kill Queen Asheveiere. If you could make it as satisfying as watching
Spoiler:
on game of thrones then that would be great.

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Re: [mainline] The North Remembers

Post by Whiskeyjack » August 6th, 2015, 1:24 am

max_torch wrote:IMO Mal-Ravanal's character is really that of a cheater/backstabber ala Loki, like a sly devil whose cheating, dishonorable ways are really detestable. It would be nice if you could set up a story in such a way that by the end of it the players really hate him so much so that by the time we kill him it would be so much more satisfying when we kill Queen Asheveiere. If you could make it as satisfying as watching
Spoiler:
on game of thrones then that would be great.
Ui, thats setting the bar rather high :lol:
Embracing the evilness of Ravanal more might be a good thing to do. There are some possibilities for this. I do not see him as a "cheater/backstabber" though. That dude is too powerfull and to "all out in your face" with his big offensive on Wesnoth. True, he does cheat a little in the duell, should the player so choose, but he does show up and fights it almost fair. (That is actually something I really like about the campaign, letting you choose for the last scenario, if you want a small scale challenge or a big battle).
Last edited by Whiskeyjack on August 18th, 2015, 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Under blood-red skies an old man sits in the ruins of Carthage contemplating prophecy.

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