How to avoid economy loss with drakes vs loyalists? [SOLVED]

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Zaroth
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How to avoid economy loss with drakes vs loyalists? [SOLVED]

Post by Zaroth » January 30th, 2011, 4:08 pm

A question inspired by my latest ladder game. I want to ask more advanced players for feedback about the following game:
Zaroth_Dr_Yohel_Lo_-_Hamlets.gz
Dr vs Lo on Hamlets
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From the very beginning I was outnumbered - that's a thing to expect when playing Drakes. I was also killing tons of Loyalists, so it wasn't that bad. However, at one point things started to look worse - I lost a village, then another and couldn't efficiently regain them (I was also kind of disappointed at the speed with which my Drake Clashers were dying to enemy archers). My drakes fought fiercely and killed a lot of humans (and advanced a few times on the way), however, their numbers seemed to be infinite... and I lost.

I would very much appreciate any feedback on my mistakes in this game, because apart of the last attack (I was quite desparate at this point) I can't tell, what my mistakes were. Some general tips on Drakes vs Loyalists (How to play... series lack them) are also welcome.

And if somebody has a bit more time, I would also appreciate comment on this game (Elves vs Loyalists on Fallenstar Lake), however here I'm pretty sure that trying to restlessly attack on the south was the cause of my defeat.
Last edited by Zaroth on February 2nd, 2011, 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Alfginnar
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Re: How to avoid economy loss with drakes vs loyalists?

Post by Alfginnar » January 30th, 2011, 7:13 pm

well there are a few things tha might have happened if you played with shroud you might have missed some villages that eventually were taken by the loyalists another thing is to use the right units check the help for weaknesses and strenghts of the different units different units have different weakness for example:ghosts they have good defence against almost everything but if you use magic on them you will win easily

Velensk
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Re: How to avoid economy loss with drakes vs loyalists?

Post by Velensk » January 30th, 2011, 8:38 pm

For the game against loyalists (I'll get to the other one later):

Turn 1: I do not know if you knew you were fighting loyalists, however if you did it would have been better to start with a saurian heavy build. In any case I find your choice of units to be a bit on the expensive side which can make it rough to handle rushes. Your build is not optimized for quick village grabbing but that might not be a problem on this map.

Turn 2: Your village grabbing could have been a bit more efficient, you had a drake that could have captured 7,26

Turn 3: No Comment

Turn 4: Although your advance on the right is not something I can definitely say is a bad idea, but I can say that it does not actually give you very much leaverage and does allow him to attack you in a way that does not expose himself overly much. you do have a saurian which might give you an advantage if the fight draws out but it might not be enough if he shifts correctly. I'd pick up another saurian before getting a clasher. Clashers play a defensive role in this match-up.

Turn 5: With the conflict going as it is you really didn't need to have to shift forces off your left flank village. In essence, you made it really easy for him to steal that village for no real reason and considering the units he can steal it with, easy to get away with them.

Turn 6: No Comment

Turn 7: I generally would not pick up too many drake fighters in favor of saurians. Drake fighters take extra damage from the piercing weapons so commonly available to loyalists whereas saurians resist it. In this case, the drake fighter is probably not a bad choice.

Turn 8: Bit of bad luck losing the clasher in one turn. I'd have kept the saurian on the swamp village because it can hold it decently, and even if they kill it they'll have put their units in position for a brutal counter attack. This way they get to take advantage of the terrain.

Turn 9: Keep those saurians out of the open until using them will make a difference. You need to get some saurian augers on the map to force them out of villages and freeze the heavy infantry.

Turn 10: Try to be polite.

Turn 11: Save the terrain for the saurians. Drakes go from 30% to 40% defense and being tough but easy to hit either way, saurians go from 40% to 60% and being fragile and easy to hit to fragile and hard to hit. Also remember that you can skirmish around to get 60% defense from the swamp.

Turn 12: No Comment

Turn 13: No Comment

Turn 14: Your counter attack was on the risky side, it paid off for you this time, but it could have bit you hard with a tap of misfortune. Watch which of your units are experienced and be careful when putting them into risky situations, units leveling can be game turners.

Turn 15: No Comment

Turn 16: Attacking with your leader before you insured that the horseman would die could have been fatal. It wasn't in this case, but if you don't manage your risks it will kill you occasionally.

Turn 17: Again, attacking with your leader there could have killed you if you'd failed to kill him and he'd gotten a 3/3 against 40%. Your leader was not needed to ensure that he be killed and it could have ended the game for you right there even with the considerable advantage you've curried.

Turn 18: No Comment

Turn 19: Going into the open field just as day is breaking (as p2) with expensive piercing vulnerable drakes against loyalist infantry with terrain cover is a good way to get yourself killed. It may have been better to wait out this day and gather strength forcing them to either fight you from the open or wait till you can easily force them off at night.

Turn 20: No Comment.

Turn 21: I think you would find it to a greater advantage to get a reinforcement than to attack with your leader, there is absolutely no unit on the right flank to keep that horseman from stealing like crazy.

Overall: The first big mistake I saw was that you abandoned the left flank for very little reason, you were then forced to respond to the village steal you made easy which in turn made you lose villages on the other side. You managed to turn the situation around and level up a couple drakes only to lose them to an ill timed attack.

Advice: Watch the distribution of forces and don't shift forces away from an enemy presence unless you are retreating or know that it will be advantageous (especially when it costs you a village that quickly). Try using saurian heavy builds and avoiding conflict at day when possible (defending with clashers when needed). Using them instead of drakes will mean that you will not be as badly outnumbered, and they are still mobile enough to stay out of range at day and strike at night. At night the combination of skirmisher melee and magical ranged can let you crack tough loyalist formations with ease, nighttime and piercing resistances will let you survive most of their units even when standing in the open but from cover they will have little power over you (you can use skirmishers to snipe mages that might present a problem). Saurians also provide healing and are quickly leveling.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Zaroth
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Re: How to avoid economy loss with drakes vs loyalists?

Post by Zaroth » January 30th, 2011, 10:10 pm

@Velensk
Wow! Thanks for your extensive review, I think you said everything (or nearly everything) that could be said about that game. Some comments from me:
  • I didn't see saurian skirmisher as a village-holding unit (turn 8). However, as you pointed it out, sacrificing him in the village would probably be worth more then keeping him alive (can't believe I didn't see the clear terrain advantage I'd get)
  • I really didn't notice how bad it looks to move your leader befor everything seems safe (turns 16,17). Thanks for opening my eyes here :-) However, when no such risks are involved, I guess I will still prefer to attack with leader first, so other units can get experience for the kills.
  • the "I hate you" phrase used after losing yet another clasher without him having any real impact on the battle was rather in the jocular tone and without any ill intention (as in used with ;-) ). However, since I didn't use the emoticon this time to make it obvious, I guess some people would feel offended (and some surely would even with the emoticon). My bad.
  • attack in turn 19 looks just painful now, especially after looking on kill statistics and knowing that he didn't have that much forces after all... I went a bit paranoid here. After that many turns with having just 4-5 villages out of 14, I imagined he had some kind of colossal army in the fog prepared and was going to attacked me on the both sides. I probably decided (with my paranoid mind) that if I don't get a village fast, I'm gonna lose for sure. Now when I look at it... there's not much he could do to a wall of 2 lvl drakes while standing on bad terrain, so my attack was like a birthday present for him... Oh, well. It's over.
All in all, thank you very much Velensk for taking your time to give me this very useful and detailed advice! (and thank you Alf as well for your general advice ;-) ) I surely learnt a lot from it. I guess if it was expanded a bit, it could make a decent chapter in "how to play..." series as drakes vs loyals advice, most of information is already here :-)

Edit: Oh, I forgot to comment on my leaving the village on one of the early turns. Yeah, I agree that was probably my biggest mistake here, and let's not talk about it more, I'm so ashamed... I solemnly promise I won't do it again.
Edit2: I think I knew I was fighting with loyalists, however lots of clashers seemed like a such good counter for his cavalry... and they also didn't have pierce weakness. I guess I overestimated their value a bit (especially since he didn't recruit that much cavalry). For completeness sake: my faction was random.

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