How to play: Loyalists vs. Loyalists

[monochromatic]

Ok, the biggie. Was stumped for a bit, then figured this out. Comment as usual

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Loyalists versus Loyalists

A mirror match. You two are using the same units, so you know each others' strengths and weaknesses too well. Both sides are lawful, so ToD is not as relevant. At day you will push to be prepared to take massive causalities. At night you won;t take as much damage but you won't be able to push as much. Well, stumped? What do you in a match like this? Well here's what to do:

units you will be using

Mage - A necessity. To break through your opponent's defenses, and to deal damage to much needed places, like against a Fencer or Heavy Infantryman. He's 20 gold though, so recruit as needed and keep them shielded. Rating: *****
Spearman - You need this unit to defend against enemy units. He is cheap meat and will cover up your more vulnerable units. To offensive role, however, is limited by the fact that most of the Loyalists defensive units are resistant to pierce. These will also help defend against incoming horse units. Rating: *****
Fencer - When the horse units are less useful because they are less resistant to pierce, you need an alternative fast unit. The fencer, although it has low resists in general, he has high defenses on most rough terrains and good mp. These guys can easily hold a village through the night. But even with it's high defense enemy Mages will tear them to shreds. But Mages are vulnerable to him as he is a skirmisher.Rating: ****
Heavy Infantry - A great unit in this match-up. Though it's slow, most of the Loyalists are slow. It resists pierce and blade, the main weapons for the Loyalists. Be careful as enemy Mages as dawn/day/dusk with ripped these units apart. It's 19 gold; do not over-recruit. Recruit mainly for its defensive properties. Rating: ****
Merman Fighter - A sea unit. Nothing more. Useful in that, but not really anything else. Rating: ***
Horseman - Useful as a scout, as these will rip Bowmen, Mages, and Cavalrymen apart. Watch out for those spears though. Losing this unit will cost you a lot. Do not over-recruit. Rating: **
Bowman - Useful against to horse units, but this is not really a great buy. Spearmen will also do the job really well and have hp to survive. But while Spearman have some other offensive roles like in attacking Fencers, Mages, and enemy Bowmen, the Bowmen does not have a good use beyond killing horse units or stray Spearman/Fencers. Rating: **
Cavalryman - Recruit sparingly. Cavalrymen will lose to Horsemen. Rating: *

units to watch out for

Mage - These guys will blast your units and rip apart your Heavy Infantrymen. Kill these first so your frontline is be less susceptible to fireballs derailing your line. Rating: *****
Spearman - These will defend Mages and hold key spots. They have firststrike, so your firststrike will be nullified when they attack you. Kill these with Mages or Heavy Infantrymen. Rating: *****
Fencer - Fencers will slip behind your lines and steal your villages. As he is a skirmisher, protect your Mages from him. Don't let him take your villages! Send a Cavalryman after him or blast him witha Mage if he is within safety range. Try not to gang p upon him as the enemy may be using him to distract your troops as sneaks by and attacks your safety zone. Rating: ****
Heavy Infantry - He will be hard to take down without a Mage. As he has low mp, avoid him until you can strike him with Mages and clean up with Cavalrymen or Spearmen if you need to. Rating: ****

at the start of the match

At the start of the game, recruit 1 Fencer to scout, and 1 Cavalryman if the map is huge. Then recruit 1-2 Mages, 1-2 Spearmen, 1 Merman Fighter if there is a significant amount of water, and maybe another Fencer, Spearman, or Cavalryman. Start slowly, the enemy Loyalists units will punish you if you strike too early. Advance your units in a line and protect vulnerable/wounded units in the back. Push during the day, but be prepared to take losses. At night neither side will accomplish much. Use that time to steal villages with your Fencer/Cavalryman combo and threaten his units to retreat to take back those villages so your units and advance further.

when attacking/advancing

-Use the Mages to attack first in this order: Heavy Infantryman, Spearman, Fencer
-Then use your Spearman and Cavalrymen to finish off the units your Mages couldn't and cover the exposed units.
-Use your Spearman and Cavalrymen to attack the protected Mages and Bowmen.
-Place Heavy Infantrymen in crucial places of ZoC to block off the enemy.
-Be prepared to retreat at any time. Have a backup force ready to help the main force retreat.

when defending/retreating

-Place your Spearmen and Heavy Infantrymen in the front, wounded/weak/low hp units in the back.
-Give up a village if you have to; losing 2-3 gold is better than losing a 14+ gold unit.
-Now is the perfect time to village-steal. If done effectively, your retreating/stalemate force will be safe for the time being.

basic flow of the match

The match will move very slowly for most of it, but be patient. Try to advance your Mages and Spearmen to gain an advantage over your opponent. Do not rush unless you want to get pummeled. Generally, day will be bloody, and night will be a stalemate.

[5dPZ]

My rank order of usefulness:

Spearman (for everything there)
Mage (for killing spearman in a village along with lots of other stuff)
Archer (for killing spearman outside a village and mounties)
Cavery (for scouting and killing archer, mage, HI, fencer)
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Fencer (for skimishing)
Horseman (for killing mage and archer)
Heavy Infantry (for a waste of gold)

Merman (usefulness according to water/swamp on the map)

Above the dashline are "good units" that are required to win this match up. Below the line are "bad units" that are only required for certain situation, waste of gold otherwise.

[monochromatic]

Hmmm...the cheap spearman (and bowman) can easily take down the horse units, and even if you trade, the one using spearmen would gain 3-9 gold, so I find them less useful here. Yes, the horse units have speed, but the spearman (and bowman) are such core units it's not unlikely you'll find them everywhere. They (the horse units) are only good at attacking fencers, bowmen, or mages. So I don;t think it;s worth the extra gold.

Now since, you do not have that speed from the horse units, both yours and your opponent's forces will be dramatically slower. So what's the mobile unit in the force left? Fencers. That and a cavalryman can do a fast and furious village grab, an should be the mobile units you uses, particularly the fencer, on good terrain, of course.

And because your force in general is not mobile, I think HI have a much greater use here than in other match-ups. Unlike the ranged rebels, or the cheap(er) dark adept, or the cheap orcish archer, the fast and powerful drakes (and the cheap augur), and the highly resistant drakes, the mage is the only loyalist unit that can reliably take out an HI. And it's more expensive. A bowmen at day does a mere 5-3, and any other unit (except for other HIs) will not do any significant damage without taking significant retaliation. Even a mage at day does only 10-3; even at day, unless you have leadership, it takes at least two units to take down one HI. That's 20 + 14+ = 34+ gold vs 19 gold.

[Velensk]

I'd say that cavalry are generally a poor choice due to just how many spearmen there will be around. I find horsemen to be more useful simply due to the fact that even if they die to the most common enemy unit they have enough damage to take out a wounded heavy infantry or mage whereas the cavalry are only good against units that will likely be behind protection (and fencers but I generally don't see many of those in this match(. Cavalry are not at all good at killing heavy infantry. They make a decent wall against them however your enemy isn't going to choose to attack them with the heavy infantry while they have spearmen around to do the job.

[Mabuse]

in general horseman is better than cavalry in this setup
because:

both players send out their scouts to grab the outer villages quickly ...
and the horseman is a big threat to the cavalry, so horseman wins the "scoutbattle"

both units are equally useless versus spearman (pretty much useless)
horseman can kill a mage in one round, cavalry cant

so if you need a scout get a horseman, cavalry has really no point in this setup

if you recruit cavalry instead of horseman scouts you are at a disadvantage
(in a random enemy setup i would get cavalry any day, but if you know the enemy has loys then you really have to think this over)

[psychic]

Is a guide even required for mirror? Especially the units to watch out for section given that you already explained what to recruit. Even the tactivs and strategies used sections are theoretically poinless since, if they stick to the guide, neither of the team can win.
And the players will very well know what units they will be facing hence writing a guide about mirror is like spoon feeding.

Just some points to ponder over, I dont want you to waste your efforts on something which does not happen quite often.

[Huumy]

Is a guide even required for mirror?

I think guide for mirror is useful. Lets say you are new player (they usually read these guides). You just had tough game with some other new player. Maybe you both only recruited spearmen and game was all about luck and now you want to know how to beat "spearmen" strategy which you think is imba.

Even the tactivs and strategies used sections are theoretically poinless since, if they stick to the guide, neither of the team can win.

I would say knowing strategies to (any) matchup is not pointless. Why? Here's 2 possible scenarios when you know the matchup strategies:
1. Your opponent don't know the good strategies you have the edge.
2. You both (you and your opponent) know the good strategies now you just have to play better than him.
----> You know the good strategies, you know their strenght and weaknesses making the scenario "2" easier.

And the players will very well know what units they will be facing hence writing a guide about mirror is like spoon feeding.

When I started playing multiplayer (I played like 2 scenarios of first campaign before I got bored to it) I wanted to get good at it. I found the best way to get better was after crushing defeat come read JWs guide and think how I played compared to the guide. Point being: Even if some1 thinks it's obvious what works and what don't some of the new players simply don't know. Making the voluntarely spoonfeeding sometimes good thing.

Just some points to ponder over, I dont want you to waste your efforts on something which does not happen quite often.

In wesnoth the players that expect every outcome usually do better than players who only expect the most likely ones.


With all respect.

[5dPZ]

in general horseman is better than cavalry in this setup
because:

both players send out their scouts to grab the outer villages quickly ...
and the horseman is a big threat to the cavalry, so horseman wins the "scoutbattle"

both units are equally useless versus spearman (pretty much useless)
horseman can kill a mage in one round, cavalry cant

so if you need a scout get a horseman, cavalry has really no point in this setup

if you recruit cavalry instead of horseman scouts you are at a disadvantage
(in a random enemy setup i would get cavalry any day, but if you know the enemy has loys then you really have to think this over)

I totally agree that Horseman is a better unit than cavary as you described here. However, there is a 6g cost difference, does that justify the quality between the two?

For the "scoutbattle" you mentioned, these battles are usually 1 vs 1, and horseman has only 36% chance killing a scout, which means 2/3 of time, cavary will survive and deal good retaliation damage to the charger.

No doubt horseman is better against mage. But against a 7hp spearman, cavary gives a safer kill than horseman. The adventage here can hardly justify the 6g cost difference.

[Huumy]

No doubt horseman is better against mage. But against a 7hp spearman, cavary gives a safer kill than horseman

Against 20HP spearman horseman gives safer kill

[Yoyobuae]

No doubt horseman is better against mage. But against a 7hp spearman, cavary gives a safer kill than horseman

Against 20HP spearman horseman gives safer kill

Unless horseman has 17~21HP or less. It's funny when a horseman comes charging to a spearman/clasher just to get instantly killed, before even attacking.

[monochromatic]

Sorry for the delay. Edited first post.