Copyright Issue with PhantasyRPG.com

[freim]

As far as we know they are conforming with the GPL. They don't have to release the code. We even asked the FSF and they agreed.

I don't see what everyone's problem is. If they want to use our graphics, what's wrong with them doing so, so long as they conform with our license? The GPL doesn't require them referencing us, so why should we be demanding that they do so?

David

Personally, I don't have a problem with them not referencing us (although that would be the nice thing to do). However I have a problem with the way they have formulated themselves as I have pointed out above, because it implies that the images released under the GPL license isn't copyrighted, which is plain wrong.

[tigrezno]

mmm i thought their project was over SDL, but it's php. You have reason, they follow the GPL, but as a "human feeling", they should put a link to wesnoth, by providing all images, what a idiots!!

[enki]

What licence have those neo images? GPL? if they are GPL, they must release their source code because they load GPL images in memory, joining with the rest of code.

I don't think loading images make them part of the program that loads them (think of web browsers, image viewer) and thus the program doesn't have to be released under GPL. I believe it similar to the issue of binary kernel modules, Linux distribution using none-GPL fonts and graphics and so on.

[eugenelim]

I think the discontent here is the lack of acknowledgement by PhantasyRPG.com, the fact that they did not inform the artists and ask for their permission, and that they just use other people's hard work without contributing anything back to Wesnoth.

[turin]

I think the discontent here is the lack of acknowledgement by PhantasyRPG.com, the fact that they did not inform the artists and ask for their permission, and that they just use other people's hard work without contributing anything back to Wesnoth.

all of which is allowed by GPL... if we didn't want to let others do that, we shouldn't have used the GPL.

[Circon]

It seems a bit weird to just say "Graphics are © their respective owners, or are licensed under the GNU GPL" IMO.

As Miyo pointed out, these cannot be exclusive things.

I've pointed this out too. They are breaking the law.

-EITHER use non-GPLed work, and make a © notice

-OR include GPLed work, and the whole game must be GPL.

Here's my sketch of an email to send to them:

Dear PhantasyRPG Administrator,
This message is sent on behalf of the Battle for Wesnoth community. (http://www.wesnoth.org) You may remember us from a previous conversation.

It has come to our attention that your game uses images from Battle for Wesnoth that are licensed under the General Public License (GPL). Including such graphics is perfectly legal and encouraged, but any work containing images licensed under the GPL must be entirely under the GPL, as stated in thedetails of the GPL. Contrary to this, your game is not fully licensed under GPL and includes images from such games as Final Fantasy. We request that you either license the whole game under the GPL or remove all images taken from Battle for Wesnoth.

The post at http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2014 demonstrates that also images posted to the Battle for Wesnoth forum rather than included in the game, are licensed under GPL except when explicitly listed as examples of previous work.

[Dave]

Everyone:

I contacted the Free Software Foundation (the guys who wrote the GPL) about this, and they essentially said that what Phantasy RPG is doing now conforms with the GPL.

Remember, the GPL is about Freedom. The freedom to do what you want, as long as you don't restrict the freedom of others. PhantasyRPG is not restricting the freedom of others to use images as they see fit. PhantasyRPG is not distributing binaries without source code.

Also, in Wesnoth we have used some images from FreeCiv. I don't believe we contacted FreeCiv and asked/told them about our use.

If any individuals who have had their art published in PhantasyRPG still feel that they are being wronged in some way, they are welcome to contact PhantasyRPG directly, and/or consult with the Free Software Foundation. If they would like to private message me, I can give them the address of someone at the FSF who will help them.

David

[Gafgarion]

Everyone:

I contacted the Free Software Foundation (the guys who wrote the GPL) about this, and they essentially said that what Phantasy RPG is doing now conforms with the GPL.

Remember, the GPL is about Freedom. The freedom to do what you want, as long as you don't restrict the freedom of others. PhantasyRPG is not restricting the freedom of others to use images as they see fit. PhantasyRPG is not distributing binaries without source code.

Also, in Wesnoth we have used some images from FreeCiv. I don't believe we contacted FreeCiv and asked/told them about our use.

If any individuals who have had their art published in PhantasyRPG still feel that they are being wronged in some way, they are welcome to contact PhantasyRPG directly, and/or consult with the Free Software Foundation. If they would like to private message me, I can give them the address of someone at the FSF who will help them.

David

My problem is that they are using Final Fantasy images (copyrighted images) and our images (GPLed).

Perhaps the person to bring this up to is SquareEnix?

[AT]

My problem is that they are using Final Fantasy images (copyrighted images) and our images (GPLed).

Perhaps the person to bring this up to is SquareEnix?

Yes, it would be SquareEnix's probelem, as they are the copyright holder. However, the Westnoth team will not be contacting them, as whatever obligations PRPG has with them are not our business or concern; they could have permission, or whatever.

Having proprietary images on the same site is OK, so all obligations to us are fullfilled. So whats the problem?

[Na'enthos]

My problem is that they are using Final Fantasy images (copyrighted images) and our images (GPLed).

Perhaps the person to bring this up to is SquareEnix?

Yes, it would be SquareEnix's probelem, as they are the copyright holder. However, the Westnoth team will not be contacting them, as whatever obligations PRPG has with them are not our business or concern; they could have permission, or whatever.

Having proprietary images on the same site is OK, so all obligations to us are fullfilled. So whats the problem?

Perhaps the fact that Wesnoth and the artists who made those graphics may be linked to a game which uses stolen images? If I was one of those artists, I´d seriously consider notifying SquareEnix.

[eugenelim]

If anyone wants to contact Square Enix, it should be on their personal / group capacity and not officially represent Battle for Wesnoth. Do organize and go ahead if you want.

[Gafgarion]

Yes, it would be SquareEnix's probelem, as they are the copyright holder. However, the Westnoth team will not be contacting them, as whatever obligations PRPG has with them are not our business or concern; they could have permission, or whatever.

Having proprietary images on the same site is OK, so all obligations to us are fullfilled. So whats the problem?

Perhaps the fact that Wesnoth and the artists who made those graphics may be linked to a game which uses stolen images? If I was one of those artists, I´d seriously consider notifying SquareEnix.

I think that is indeed what is bothering me, but since I'm not the artist of the BfW images used on PRPG (and I'm not a SquareEnix fanboy), I don't feel the obligation to contact SquareEnix.

[Dave]

For everyone's information, since some of our artists seem concerned about the way in which their work is being used, I have written to the Free Software Foundation, and asked them if they can suggest whether a different license for art etc would be appropriate. They said they are running it past some lawyers...

David

[Darkmoon]

I think,

that a lot(at least some) of people that provided art to this project meant it to be specifically to be used here. I know, that leading reference to donation of art on some place on the site(not forums), in one of the manuals it could(depending on your understanding of grammar) lead to believe someone that they are simply granting Wesnoth community use of the art as if they were and GPL(or such) but without actually doing so, simply giving Wesnoth rights to use the images freely. Can’t reference it at the moment but is directly on Wesnoth.org site.


Personally, if I did art work for Wesnoth I would like it to be unique to Wesnoth… we are not talking a source code here. If suddenly many sites adopted Wesnoth graphics for their use… and so did many games…. It just takes away from Wesnoth. It diminishes it. A player coming to Wesnoth would simply say… “O, look... this game has the same graphics as PhantasyRPG.com� ((and most might go straight thinking… what a rip off while thinking that it was Wesnoth that did ripping)). And an image itself is not a source code by itself.


A link from Wesnoth site to http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

Here is part 10, that I believe is referring to art work(AS part of the program)

10. If you wish to incorporate parts of the Program into other free programs whose distribution conditions are different, write to the author to ask for permission. For software which is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation, write to the Free Software Foundation; we sometimes make exceptions for this. Our decision will be guided by the two goals of preserving the free status of all derivatives of our free software and of promoting the sharing and reuse of software generally.

Also

5. You are not required to accept this License, since you have not signed it. However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or distribute the Program or its derivative works. These actions are prohibited by law if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so, and all its terms and conditions for copying, distributing or modifying the Program or works based on it.

In example of phantasyrpg.com, they work is based on graphics based on our program.

Further below it says…
This General Public License does not permit incorporating your program into proprietary programs.

In addition near the top it says,
…
We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and (2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the software.
…


In all, the license mainly refers to the actual source code not graphics, and it is my believe that it was intended to refer mainly to the source code by itself.

Further, do to the ability of people to create campaigns with custom pictures(like my headshot, or something else) and more… I think it would be good idea if it would be understood that art is nothing but extras used by source code,… with source code being licensed as it(the source) is and merely referring to the images... but art is still copyrighted by authors normally. That distinction can be even easier to understand considering how easy it is to switch one picture for another in Wesnoth. ((one could, if they wanter… use images of real personas)). However, if you do not consider pictures a part of program… then they are/should be still copyrighted normally, in which case PhantasyRPG would be in trouble(mainly redrawing).


On the PhantasyRPG.com site…

COPYRIGHT AND COPYRIGHT NOTICES
GamersBrand Entertainment respects the intellectual property of others, and we ask our users to do the same. (it continues for one or two more sentences)

But read quoted #5 earlier in the post… did they send letters asking authors for permission to use their art? But if not... read number 10… it says... Nothing else grants you permission to do much of anything

On a side,.. distribution of Phantasy’s rpg are different… not only program itself is copyrighted(without GPL or anything like that added to it) by them… but also it does not operate in any form of open source paradigm(nor is the source available). Hence, number 10 and 5 should apply. It seems,.. they should either make their project GPL… or not use parts of Wesnoth without permission of authors. ((Of course, they are free to modify Wesnoth without that permission, as license states, for as long as it obeys GPL as well)).


Anyhow… these are just some thoughts by someone who found this game not so long ago and considered helping (by means of art, or perhaps some pieces of writing) Wesnoth a bit… and since I personally was involved in similar dispute(although, not really including software but images and stories written by people as a part of a community) I thought I would add my couple cents.


By the way, did you see new holiday banner on phantasyrpg.com? And their “link to� banners?

They seem to mainly use Wesnoth graphics…. And not even a link to Wesnoth itself. Anyhow, If I donated art to Wesnoth, I would not mind likely anyone using it… for as long as it was not for profit type of thing/organization. And GamersBrand Entertainment, is definitively for profit type of organization even if their phantasyrpg is supposedly free.

((forgive me for such a long post, initially I meant it to be at most 2-3 paragraphs long… but there was always another thought in waiting – and that also might be why some parts might be poorly joined, ))

[Circon]

My friend saw this and suggests:

a) Complain to them
b) Flame them
c) Hack into their database
d) Sue them
e) All the above simultaneously

"SUE DER ASSES, MAN!"

So... what to do now? I really don't feel like ignoring this. They've obviously ripped off a lot of stuff that you'd have to creatively interpret the GPL to consider "legal".

/me walks away angrily