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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Alright.

http://star.walagata.com/w/paterson/feb ... tlehopping

Now, I realize that some people may wince at the inclusion of cave terrain- I too found the prospect rather unpleasant at first. The truth of the matter is, there is no other way to ensure that every leader in the game reaches their center keep on turn 3 (remember that in upcoming versions, the shocktrooper is cut from random leader selection). If not for the Drake Warrior leader, the problem is easily solveable; a hill in the middle of the standard path would prohibit any non-Warrior leader from reaching on their second turn of movement, and would allow all of them to reach on their third.

As you can see, I tried to blend the cave into the map's aesthetic, and I think it looks quite alright; not nearly as ugly as I'd have imagined.

So, give it a try- It's not set in stone yet. Feedback is encouraged.
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IB
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Post by IB »

Cave...Think we need to burn you at the stake. :)

Nah, looks okay.

PS: Is your inbox full?

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krotop
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Post by krotop »

I think players can still reach in 2 turns with a saurian leader (although I couldn't check if cave hills cost 2 MP for saurians). A forest hex on the way might prevent that.

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JW
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Post by JW »

This is just 1 excellent example of why we need a terrain that slows down
drakes that isn't cave. It looks alright....but does it make much sense?

One major limiting factor of map development when it comes to working
around Drakes is obviously their movement. That's one reason I could
never get into map making - I had to consider flight far too much for my
taste.

R121
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Post by R121 »

Thanks for taking the time to do this! I look forward to trying out the new version.

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Baufo
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Post by Baufo »

Gameplaywise I think this one looks by far nicer than the old one. I will give it a try when I find some time.
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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

krotop wrote:I think players can still reach in 2 turns with a saurian leader (although I couldn't check if cave hills cost 2 MP for saurians). A forest hex on the way might prevent that.
wesnoth unit tree wrote:Cave= 1 MP, 60% defense
Mushroom Grove= 1 MP, 60% defense
The saurian can still make it, as it also has 6 movement. I suggest a forest hex after the cave. Still, you get serious drawbacks with having a saurian leader- only 26 hp, weak attacks, and no further level-up.[/quote]
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JW
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Post by JW »

F8 Binds... wrote:The saurian can still make it, as it also has 6 movement. I suggest a forest hex after the cave. Still, you get serious drawbacks with having a saurian leader- only 26 hp, weak attacks, and no further level-up.
I agree. Remember that he is removed from random leader, so this must be taken into consideration as well.

No need to balance out if someone wants to display their faction and leader by choosing the Saurian mages.

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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

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jb
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Post by jb »

Ok Doc, I want to talk about two maps. (I thought I posted this last night, maybe there was some data loss, lol)

Castle Hop:
While it is a well known opinion that the cave in the center of each quadrant is ugly, I generally feel that gameplay should come before looks. That being said, I fear that gameplay has actually suffered here. Initial village collects are awkward at best (though not impossible)..and initial battle flow is very jerky. I am not at all saying it is unbalanced, I’m just suggesting the possibility that in the micro-management quest for perfect balance (based on a rare and less-than-significant problem) that the map has actually lost some of it’s fun value.

Blue Water Province:
I like this map…the way it looks and plays. . I do think there is a potential for stalemate games here though. The battle flow is really pushed to the hard edges of the map, where there are two thin strips of “good terrain”. A problem I’ve encountered several (less than half) times: players quickly rush to grab the strips of good terrain and the large expanses of grass become too dangerous to advance…creating a stalemate situation. Like I said, it doesn’t always happen, just my observations based on about 10-12 games.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

jb wrote:Ok Doc, I want to talk about two maps. (I thought I posted this last night, maybe there was some data loss, lol)

Castle Hop:
While it is a well known opinion that the cave in the center of each quadrant is ugly, I generally feel that gameplay should come before looks. That being said, I fear that gameplay has actually suffered here. Initial village collects are awkward at best (though not impossible)..and initial battle flow is very jerky. I am not at all saying it is unbalanced, I’m just suggesting the possibility that in the micro-management quest for perfect balance (based on a rare and less-than-significant problem) that the map has actually lost some of it’s fun value.

Blue Water Province:
I like this map…the way it looks and plays. . I do think there is a potential for stalemate games here though. The battle flow is really pushed to the hard edges of the map, where there are two thin strips of “good terrain”. A problem I’ve encountered several (less than half) times: players quickly rush to grab the strips of good terrain and the large expanses of grass become too dangerous to advance…creating a stalemate situation. Like I said, it doesn’t always happen, just my observations based on about 10-12 games.
I know what you're saying about Castle Hopping....I've not been able to find a way to improve the flow without sacrificing too much of the balance. Care to take a crack at it? (This goes for anyone who wants to give it a go.) I'll take a look at it; maybe with a bit of teamwork we can find the ideal solution.

As for Bluewater, that's an interesting observation about the stalemates- It may very well need a bit more "cover terrain" in the flatter areas. I'll study that further and post any updates in this thread.
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Becephalus
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Post by Becephalus »

jb wrote:Ok Doc, I want to talk about two maps. (I thought I posted this last night, maybe there was some data loss, lol)

Castle Hop:
While it is a well known opinion that the cave in the center of each quadrant is ugly, I generally feel that gameplay should come before looks. That being said, I fear that gameplay has actually suffered here. Initial village collects are awkward at best (though not impossible)..and initial battle flow is very jerky. I am not at all saying it is unbalanced, I’m just suggesting the possibility that in the micro-management quest for perfect balance (based on a rare and less-than-significant problem) that the map has actually lost some of it’s fun value.
I agree, I also think that the easiest solution is to just remove the warrior from the leader list. I'll work on getting that done and then perhaps we can revert it back to its pristine self :)

Both that and the sergeant are out of place as leaders IMO.

Also I will be posting minor revisions to all my maps within the month of May, perhaps some major revisions too who knows, and I am working on a few new things, but who knows when I'll have 8 hours to sit and work one fully out.
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Yogin
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Post by Yogin »

jb wrote: Blue Water Province:
I like this map…the way it looks and plays. . I do think there is a potential for stalemate games here though. The battle flow is really pushed to the hard edges of the map, where there are two thin strips of “good terrain”. A problem I’ve encountered several (less than half) times: players quickly rush to grab the strips of good terrain and the large expanses of grass become too dangerous to advance…creating a stalemate situation. Like I said, it doesn’t always happen, just my observations based on about 10-12 games.
If Doc agrees this is a problem, I think a possible step to take is to make the middle area a little bit more accessible. Maybe hills instead of mountains. I don't think it should be extremely accessible, eg. all ford, but a little bit less mountains and unpassable mountains. It just rarely seems to come into play.

-Yogin

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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

I have played the new Wilderlands twice now, and here are my initial impressions:

1) I like the fact that it now includes random monsters like the Yeti,

2) but players one and three take the brunt of the monster damage,

3) player two tends to get held up,

4) and player four gleefully takes advantage of the situation.

Has anyone else had this experience?

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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Temuchin Khan wrote:I have played the new Wilderlands twice now, and here are my initial impressions:

1) I like the fact that it now includes random monsters like the Yeti,

2) but players one and three take the brunt of the monster damage,
A human was playing as the monsters, right? This is an FFA, and I'd expect the players to be at least somewhat aware of which other teams are weakening/being strengthened, etc., and adapt accordingly (by, for example, weakening the strong team(s), making alliances to kill the monsters and the like). It may be though that the placement and "threat levels" of the various monsters need a little tweaking, to avoid predictable situations. I'd love to see a replay of what you described, to try to discern how much of the situation was brought about by choices, and how much of it was players following the easiest/most obvious (though not necessarily the best) path to victory.

Player one really only has the Skeletal Dragon as an immediate threat, and the dragon is fairly slow. It may be that his path to player one should be slowed a little, by closing one or more of his exits from the cave.
Temuchin Khan wrote: 3) player two tends to get held up,
Could you elaborate on this?
Temuchin Khan wrote: 4) and player four gleefully takes advantage of the situation.

Has anyone else had this experience?
I think that perhaps the monster team should have easier access/increased pressure into and around player 4's area.

Note that it takes the Yeti a very long time to get out of the mountains, and the other monster with early/mid game access to player 3's area is the sea serpent, whose striking zone is somewhat avoidable. The pressure on player 3 seems alright to me. This is assuming a computer-style monster player with no set strategy, who will just attack whoever is closest- I don't think that we should assume the monster player will play in this way, but regardless-

Replays demonstrating your points would be most helpful. Thanks for serving your country by giving feedback. :wink:
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