First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

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H-Hour
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First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by H-Hour »

Here is the initial draft of First Cataract, my map entry for the 4p Map Contest. The map is inspired by Philae, a temple located on an island in the first cataract of the Nile.

This is my first attempt to make a multiplayer map. I've read the guide and done my best to think through the concept and all the details. But to be honest I'm not a very good MP player. I typically play coop or singleplayer. I don't know if this will really work -- I know MP balance is an extraordinarily delicate process. But I'd like to learn, so I'm hoping a few of you might take enough of an interest to give me feedback on this draft.

Concept - I've tried to design the map with distinct roles for team mates. Players 1 and 2 are enormous pressure from two sides: they must try to hold the island while being highly exposed on their flanks. Their partners (players 4 and 3) must balance the need to support their partner in the centre with the need to push hard on their enemy's flank.

Questions - I know the centre island is probably a nightmare for balancing. Can it be saved or is it hopeless?

If you guys think I'm on the right path and this map isn't beyond repair, I'll pack it up in an addon and upload it for testing.

(Map is made in 1.11.x, but I can backport it to 1.10.x if desired. The map contest didn't specify which version to build for, but I guess 1.12 will be out by August.)

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Wintermute
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Wintermute »

It's an interesting concept. I like the idea and I think it merits some testing. One problem leaps out at me: P1 can put a 6 move unit in the SE village before anyone else can reach it with primary units, meaning P2 needs to put a scout there if he wants to be sure to take it... and putting a scout in the middle first thing isn't something you want to be locked into. Perhaps making the SE and NW villages water based would work, but I'm just shooting from the hip on that. I don't have time to give it more of a look but it would be nice to see some replays. My hunch would be that some very bad combinations would be painful: drakes P1/P4 and UD P2/Knalgans P3 could be ugly but maybe not.

Overall, it's a fresh looking map so keep up the good work! One other suggestion is that there isn't really a need to keep things perfectly symmetrical (other than not driving OCD folks crazy!). Some of the best maps are wildly asymmetrical. So I'd say do some testing and see if some sides and combos feel strong and feel free to change up specific things to counteract issues that come up.
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Velensk
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Velensk »

Definately not bad for a first attempt. I like the general design shape.

Before I get too much further, I will comment that as a judge of the contest I feel like I should be fairly hands off on helping people with their map design. However, I am willing to give a basic critque to point out glaring flaws that would remove a map from the running without too deep an inspection. As my hands are a little tied, I'd encourage anyone else who has knowledge in the field to submit their feedback.

So some points:
-Having a central island isn't an inherant problem. The most common problem that it causes is one side or the other being able to steal villages alloted to the other side. As you have it set up, both players can reach the central villages initally on the first turn as long as they both recruit two 8 mp scouts. The other problem however is a dynamics problem of how to balance inital gambits when p2 is forced by virtue of this design to deploy two scouting units to the front and p1 isn't, and there's also the fact that the set-up you have gives you an incredibly short buffer between the fronts which can make rushes (or even just make pushes with a player who gets favorable ToD. In theory none of this is insurmountable (though I'd have a really hard time with the small buffer zone) but just know that you're going to have your work cut out for you to get it to work and I expect that your end result won't look much like that.
-Even though the central villages can be divied up as it is now, some of the villages in the corners I'm less certain about. I havn't counted it out but I expect you'd find that in certain match-ups the rushing players have the ability to steal from the flankers.
-The amount of drake favoring terrain on this map is more than worrying. Sand is great for both drakes and saurians, and water spaces also tend to work in drakes favor. Sand also can make terrain that normally would favor the other factions help them less (for example, orcs move quick in hills but not dunes) A trick you can use to keep the desert theme but not favor drakes as heavily is to use sand/mushroom terrain or more palace terrain.
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Alarantalara
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Alarantalara »

Since you mentioned it's your first map, I should point out that you do not need to use the default base for forest terrain. By holding down shift while painting the terrain you can replace the terrain under the forest with something else, so you can keep the palm trees but not have them all over desert but instead dry dirt or grass if it helps balance while keeping the feel of the map.
H-Hour
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by H-Hour »

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. I'll take another stab at this.
Wintermute wrote:One problem leaps out at me: P1 can put a 6 move unit in the SE village before anyone else can reach it with primary units, meaning P2 needs to put a scout there if he wants to be sure to take it... and putting a scout in the middle first thing isn't something you want to be locked into. Perhaps making the SE and NW villages water based would work, but I'm just shooting from the hip on that.
I see your point. I'll fiddle with this.
Wintermute wrote:One other suggestion is that there isn't really a need to keep things perfectly symmetrical
To be honest, I kept things symmetrical just to reduce the number of danger zones I need to balance. But I'll definitely be open to adjusting this once the core balancing is done.
Velensk wrote:as a judge of the contest I feel like I should be fairly hands off on helping people with their map design.
I am not terribly concerned about the contest. It was simply motivation and (hopefully) an opportunity to get more critical feedback on this type of map design. If anything you say invalidates my participation that's fine. I'd also expect it to continue revisions after the contest is over.
Velensk wrote:Even though the central villages can be divied up as it is now, some of the villages in the corners I'm less certain about. I havn't counted it out but I expect you'd find that in certain match-ups the rushing players have the ability to steal from the flankers.
Damn, it looks like a rushing p1/p2 can take the sw/ne corner villages. I tried to slow them down with impassable mountains, but obviously didn't work. They are also able to steal the villages at 28,2 and 10,25. I felt that this was ok, because those scouts would then be overextended and could easily be trapped by regular p3/p4 units. Thoughts?

Thanks to Velensk and Alarantalara for the terrain tips (dunes/forests). I thought I tested and found that dunes worked like hills and sandy forests like forest, but I'll go back and take a closer look. Obviously, if dunes don't work as hills they'll all need to be replaced.
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Velensk »

In general, assume that the ability to steal a village is always a problem. The over-extending principle does have some merit but you'll always run into a few problems once you try to balance every match-up and every starting ToD (2vs2 have random ToD by default).

One of the issues is a matter of opening gambit. In order for the village steal to be over-extending (and now that I've counted, I'll just tell you outright that in some match-ups it won't be), the other player must be in position to exploit the over-extending. This won't be the case if you're only sending one scouting unit around to gather villages (even if it's a horseman vs a overextended bat, at certain ToD odds are the bat gets away, takes a chunk out of the horseman, and steals income) and for some factions they just won't be able to make them pay (like undead whose scouting units are bats who don't have ZoC and ghosts who are slow for a scout, both of whom do insignificant damage to a unit on a village). Units other than scouts won't get there fast enough that the stealer cannot retreat. There is also the simple fact, that even if it is overextending, and even if the foe does have the units in position the exploit it (and the simple fact that their village could get stolen compels them to recruit in a way they probably rather not to counter), this still leaves the person whose village gets stolen open to other exploits. They must divert their units to the village to both trap and kill the invader which may make it so that they don't have enough to guard villages elsewhere to defend a rush. Alternatively if sufficiently mobile (drakes and first night timing saurian rushes come to mind). Once you've stolen the village you just have to rush the same village. Even if the rushing force gets there around the time that the enemy cleans up the scout that still puts your enemy in a horrible position and steals a little income.

It's just very messy and better that the potential for village stealing be avoided as much as possible. Now, to illustrate how the over-extending principle comes into effect I'll show you how the dynamic comes up in a mainline map.
-On the freelands, p1 can commit hard to a rush on the right side which will allow him to steal a village if p2 does not recruit a scout with sufficient movement to get to the outermost village. However, it will be costly to him to do so. In order to make this profitable he still has to grab all his villages in a timely fashion, and then he must have enough forces on the right side to be a credible threat (and the number of villages on that flank make it likely that there will be several defenders in the area). If you look at the positioning of the villages on that right flank, in order to grab the outer village he'll need an 8 mp scout. He needs another 8 mp scout who'll run forward towards the enemy village skipping his own village (unless he's elves and gets a quick scout) and then he'll need some unit to grab the village the scout skipped over. With this set-up you can steal p2 village and put at least two other units in range to support by turn 3. But you can see here, that this is already a massive commitment; Generally, recruiting scouts cuts into your breaking power and you're already having to recruit two of them for this maneuver (the outer village could be grabbed with a slower unit but this will slow down your rush considerably) and in the event that p2 did recruit a scout the gambit would put p1 in a worse position than if he'd opted for a slower rush not centered around the village steal. On the other hand, if p1 doesn't do a full commit and provide the support the village stealer needs then he's practically guaranteed to over-extend and not be able to make it worthwhile. An experienced p2 will be aware that he has this vulnerability but he'll also know that it's risky for his opponent to try to exploit it making it a case of blind bid rather than a problem.
-The thing that balances this though, is that it is costly in terms of position and actions to attempt such a thing on the freelands and even then it can be countered. If it isn't costly to even attempt it however, then it becomes a strong imbalance. For example, if you consider the options of a quick drake fighter for p2 starting on the northmost castle hex, he'll probably find himself wanting to grab the sand village between the two palm trees and then he'll want to steal the northeast village. This isn't really overextending and pretty much never will be because in most situations he'll only be attackable from one hex (most of which the village healing will take care of) and if so he'll have a retreat path). And it's not like drake fighters are squishy targets either, the counter damage would chew up wolf riders, ghosts/bats, cavalrymen, and even give griffons a hard time. This involves no risk for the drake player against several factions, doesn't require any other commitment (though it could be made much more deadly with some) and in fact, could be done without intentional preparation. If a player wants to do this he could arrange for follow up and he wouldn't even have to rely on getting a quick drake fighter, he could just recruit a glider.

EDIT: I'm aware that many people who enter the contest or who make maps for it may not take it too seriously. But out of fairness for those who do, as a judge I have not play favorites too much. Not that this stops me from elaborating on general theory.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
H-Hour
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by H-Hour »

Thanks, Velensk. That's very helpful. I have an idea that will hopefully address both the corner village stealing and the small buffer zone issue. I'll post again when it's ready.
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

I'd suggest switching P1 and P4 starting locations as now P1 and P2 could go for a more defensive faction to stand against early rushes, while the P3 and P4 will go offensive factions. Following this build-up P1+P4 side should take an advantage from having offensive player (P4) play first (P1 plays right after his teammate, P4) and then is covered by P1 while defensive P2 is followed by offensive P3 thus P3's attacking units aren't covered by defensive units by P2. Therefore switching P1 and P4 starting locations could do the trick.
H-Hour
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by H-Hour »

Here is v0.0.2. I've made several adjustments in response to your feedback. Sorry for the delay. I just don't have a lot of time these days. Still hope this will be in reasonable shape by the contest deadline.

Here's what's changed:
  • I switched the player start positions and teams as Battlecruiser_Venca suggested. Now it is P1/4 vs P2/3. At first it made no sense to me, but once I saw how it worked it fixed all sorts of village stealing problems I was having trouble with.
  • In order to address the "opening scout gambit" conundrum that Velensk raised, I widened the central island and moved the villages there back towards their keeps. I've also pulled the central start positions back to the edge of the map, to reduce exposure to TOD rushes.
  • I removed sand under several forest tiles (h/t Alarantalara), turned the sand hills into regular hills, and added some mushroom fields to reduce the terrain favourable to Drakes/Saurians.
  • I reworked several of the villages so there was less village stealing available. And in general there should be less pressure to recruit tons of scouts. All but one or two of the villages for each player should be reachable with a 6mp unit.
More feedback would be much appreciated.

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Velensk
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Velensk »

That looks like a vast improvement, though I suspect you misinterpretted what was meant by the turn order suggestion. Although it was intended that the teams be 1/4 and 2/3 I suspect that if you took it clockwise from the top he meant for it to look like this: 1 3 2 4. The one of hte village tweak I'd suggest would be to remove the swamp behind the sand villages in the center of the top and bottom so that N/S players can reach the outer village on turn 3 no matter what faction you're playing.

Other than that, I think this one is ready for heavy testing.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
H-Hour
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by H-Hour »

Thanks Velensk. I'll get that swamp tile moved out.

Are you sure about the turn order? I've read over Battlecruiser_Venca's suggestion several times now, and I still feel like it was supposed to be (clockwise from top) 1/2/3/4. As I understand it, the purpose was to ensure that both teams had the same team-mate turn flow, inside-to-outside. So the team-mate on the top/bottom will always take their turn immediately after the team-mate in the middle.
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Velensk »

Looking back at his post, it does indeed look like you interpreted his suggestion right. I don't happen to agree with his reasoning but that is what he was suggesting. Up to you how you want to take it but I don't think the thing he expressed concern over is a problem.
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

The main reason for this player layout was to prevent some kinds of early rushes and game stability when both teammates' distance from middle of map was not equal (thus there is a symmetry in first and second player of the team, note that P4 is the first and P1 the second of P1P4 team). Imagine teams made of Kangaln and Drake player.
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Velensk »

I am imagining it and I don't see a problem. Even aside from the fact that you'd have to pick your faction.
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Re: First Cataract - 4p Map Contest Entry

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

Velensk wrote:I am imagining it and I don't see a problem. Even aside from the fact that you'd have to pick your faction.
In other words this player layout makes the map symmetric (unlike the Isar's which is an asymetric map, the player layout makes the asymmetry there).
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