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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson » February 21st, 2008, 1:40 pm

Something that I think would be great for the ladder:

Maintain a "friends list" file with all of the names of the ladder players. The list could be downloaded from the ladder site and would replace the appropriate text file that the "friends online" list accesses. That way, people will see the exclamation mark near a ladder player's name, and won't have to go down the list, thinking "Hmm, is he on the ladder? Better go check the list...." (a very tedious process).
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eyerouge
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Post by eyerouge » February 21st, 2008, 4:41 pm

Doc & Leo:

Great ideas. I'll check to see what I can implement and get back here once it's done.

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Post by eyerouge » February 22nd, 2008, 12:55 am


Soliton
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Post by Soliton » February 22nd, 2008, 1:35 am

eyerouge wrote:Doc:

List is now fixed.
http://ladder.subversiva.org/friends.php
Several of those nicks aren't legal though. Spaces and parenthesis for example are not allowed. (Doesn't break the preferences file but will never match.)
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Post by eyerouge » February 22nd, 2008, 11:21 am

Soliton wrote:Several of those nicks aren't legal though. Spaces and parenthesis for example are not allowed. (Doesn't break the preferences file but will never match.)
Yes, you're correct. I thought of that and tried out the list as well to see if it would cause problems for Wesnoth. From what I could see, nothing scary happened & it works.

I could make it so all nicks that aren't Wesnoth legal don't get included if somebody wrote what I should sort our (nicks with space would be one apparent, but the rest?) and if it really matters for Wesnoth in any way. You guys tell me - you're the devs = P

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Post by eyerouge » February 22nd, 2008, 5:07 pm

Soliton: Problem should now be fixed. The only nicknames that appear in the list are those that only have standard A to Z alfanumerical characters and/or the signs - or _

I donät know which additional characters Wesnoth allows in the usernames. If I've missed out on any specific please post them here and I'll fix.

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Post by Soliton » February 22nd, 2008, 8:55 pm

eyerouge wrote:Soliton: Problem should now be fixed. The only nicknames that appear in the list are those that only have standard A to Z alfanumerical characters and/or the signs - or _
That's all that is currently allowed indeed.
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krotop
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Post by krotop » February 26th, 2008, 4:04 pm

I just met someone who wanted to report results, his problem is that he didn't find how to log in.

Maybe making a clear flashing button in the report section would be slightly more user-friendly. Or just remind the player where to login when they get into that section.
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Post by eyerouge » February 26th, 2008, 4:47 pm

Thank you for the surprising feedback :P
krotop wrote:I just met someone who wanted to report results, his problem is that he didn't find how to log in.

Maybe making a clear flashing button in the report section would be slightly more user-friendly
Not trying to be rude, and please don't take this the wrong way: It's virtually impossible to not understand where or how you login at the site. There are two text boxes and a button with the text "login" beneath them. Any average internet user who has ever logged in anywhere at all would be able to figure it out. If the user has never been on the net before you are however correct - it's not as apparent as it could/should be for such users.

Thus, I won't change it or make it more flashy. A loginbox should be placed in a standard place, easily accessible and easy to find and use. All that is a fact already. I'm sorry that 1 player of 178 didn't get it within 5 seconds, but I'm sure he'd figure it out if he really bothered to try and look at the front page / index, where any normal website would place it's login.

One might argue that many sites use the exact same system as I do but that they add the little words "Login" at the top, to give a hint about what the text boxes actually are used for. I won't add that as it already is hinted in the button and would just be repeating what's already there. [Beside, if a person doesn't understand the text Login he won't understand it easier because it's repeated]
Or just remind the player where to login when they get into that section.
The text they currently see when they press Report and they're not logged in is the following:
Access denied...

Please log in to report a game. Only members of the ladder can make reports. Become one and get plenty of loving...
From my point of view it's easy to imagine that a player can find out where to login on the site. Then again, you are correct that the message should refer to the actual url so it's easier to get to it.

I've now changed it so that the words "log in" link to the index where the login box is, and also changed "become one" so that it links to the registration page. Hopefully this is in line with what you mean... :)

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Post by krotop » February 27th, 2008, 10:39 am

eyerouge wrote:
Access denied...

Please log in to report a game. Only members of the ladder can make reports. Become one and get plenty of loving...
From my point of view it's easy to imagine that a player can find out where to login on the site. Then again, you are correct that the message should refer to the actual url so it's easier to get to it.

I've now changed it so that the words "log in" link to the index where the login box is, and also changed "become one" so that it links to the registration page. Hopefully this is in line with what you mean... :)
Yes, you got exactly what I meant, and the link is even a better idea than what I had in mind (something like a short sentence to tell 'go to news section to log in').

Ok, so no disco dancing over-saturated coloured button, that's good enough with the link. The only concern was that the logger had to understand he had to go in the news section to see that button. You're right, though, that with little research through the site it's easy to find. Now lazy or 'noobish' users won't even have to do that effort, thanks for them.
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Post by enclave » February 27th, 2008, 1:42 pm

eyerouge thanks for organizing something like this. it is great

my posts are never hostile (if you somehow find they are, its just my english s*cks)

what i am saying is never a demand, it is always only a question.

when i ask something, i only would like to know if my idea is acceptable or good for any moment of the future, i never ask for something "here and now".

somehow i decided to describe myself first, because my posts are too often locked in the forums :)

1) Somebody asked for 2v2 ladder, i want it much. Because i only play 2v2s.
You asked for more people to ask it, i am here to ask :) i will definitly find somebody for my team as soon as the 2v2 ladder would be complete.
2) Some people play only small maps like isar, some people only play bigger like clash. Would be nice if ladder had something like... heavy weight etc.. so that people who play only small maps could be ranked separatly from big map players.. and maybe also not separate ladder..
maybe 3 ladders where 1 is big maps, 2 is small maps, 3 is overall.
3) i peronsaly enjoy playing small maps 2v2, but if there were small maps like isar for 1v1 i would join 1v1 competition too.. i like it close combat more..

thanks

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Post by eyerouge » February 27th, 2008, 2:54 pm

enclave wrote:1) Somebody asked for 2v2 ladder, i want it much. Because i only play 2v2s.
You asked for more people to ask it, i am here to ask :) i will definitly find somebody for my team as soon as the 2v2 ladder would be complete.
Isn't there an inherent problem with ranking teamms: The members must always stay the same if the ranking is to actually work as it's supposed to and fill a function at all. If the member(s) change then it's not really the same team nor does the rank apply anymore.

Now, how many permanent teams will there be? Not to many I guess. Maybe I'm negative here, but I just want it explained to me - how do you imagine it would work since the permanent team membership thingie seems like a rather harsh condition to meet, and at the same one which is unavoidable?
2) Some people play only small maps like isar, some people only play bigger like clash. Would be nice if ladder had something like... heavy weight etc.. so that people who play only small maps could be ranked separatly from big map players.. and maybe also not separate ladder..
maybe 3 ladders where 1 is big maps, 2 is small maps, 3 is overall.
Some people only play mirror matches, some only rebels vs undead, some only play on one map, and so it goes on. How would I justify what you suggest but not the rest that I mention? There's no apparent preference of play that's declared as official in Wesnoth. People can play on whatever maps they want with whoever and whatever race etc. It makes it complicated to start having different ladders just because people have different preferences. It would also decimate most of the ladders and in effect kill them off probably.

Because of the amount of possible combinations and variations (or as the Vulcan proverb reads almost "Infinite diversity in infinite combinations") it seems as it's not really motivated to rank players on the basis of their personal preferences. The problems associated with that are many, but the most important ones have already been mentioned above.

What could be done, once the save game parser is implemented, is that you can set certain conditions and get a ranking for those specific conditions. Say you want to get to know who the best player is on map x or with race x etc. All that will be possible with the save game parser, but it would be just information and not affect your real and only ladder ranking / rating. Still very useful and informative though. So, once the save game parser is in place all that can be done. However, even if I have at least rylar, Funzi (which did plenty already on it) and another person looking at the save game parser at the moment, nobody seems to actually code on it for various reasons. Hence I can't tell when it will be implemented since we'd need a php coder working on it before getting anywhere with it.

Lastly, I know it may sound as if I oppose the 2vs2 idea. I don't. I just don't see it working or being used, in my imagination. I may be wrong, but I simply must ask the questions and for the solutions to the pronblems before anything actually happens. Also, please notice that all code we use is open source and that all I've done myself is the same, so if you want to code on the 2vs2 ladder or set one up with the already existing code (possible but not made for 2vs2 yet, but can be done with little effort.)

My recommendation is however to not split the project in separate factions since we're already undermanned. (we lack an active php coder). If we have a coder it's easy to integrate the 2vs2 in the current system... but, the issue with the team persistence still remains, doesn't it?

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Post by eyerouge » February 27th, 2008, 3:01 pm

enclave wrote:3) i peronsaly enjoy playing small maps 2v2, but if there were small maps like isar for 1v1 i would join 1v1 competition too.. i like it close combat more..
Well, the ladder leaves the official map releasing to the Wesnoth developers and their map developers (don't know if they're the same, probably in some cases). There's nothing hindering you or anyone else from creating an action packed 1vs1 map and trying to get it included in Wesnoth as an official map, hence making it legit on the 1vs1 ladder.

Give it a shot. Put some effort into map mapmaking and/or have the discussion with the developers or whoever decided which maps are incldued or not. They'd probably appreciate it if you did a decent job. :) ..but, be warned: Map making isn't as easy as it may look at first, and, they would probably demand rigorous testing before it's included, not to mention that you keep it up to date with every release and balance changes etc.

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Post by Doc Paterson » February 27th, 2008, 3:52 pm

enclave wrote:3) i peronsaly enjoy playing small maps 2v2, but if there were small maps like isar for 1v1 i would join 1v1 competition too.. i like it close combat more..
I guess this is as good a time as any for the following once-per-week post: :P


Isar's Cross is not held to the same standards of balance as other maps in the official pack. It is far and away the least balanced 2v2, and is kept in the pack only because it is very popular among certain groups of players.

That's great that you like micro maps, but don't expect any real support for that sort of thing from any other default map. The factional balance issues are numerous, and the low village/gold/unit counts make luck much more influencial.

A 1v1 of that sort would be even less balanced than Isar's is.....At least with a 2v2, you tend to have a greater variety of units available to the team (for example, a loyalist who prevents their undead teamate from being pushed so far back at day that they are pinned and finished).
eyerouge wrote: Well, the ladder leaves the official map releasing to the Wesnoth developers and their map developers (don't know if they're the same, probably in some cases). There's nothing hindering you or anyone else from creating an action packed 1vs1 map and trying to get it included in Wesnoth as an official map, hence making it legit on the 1vs1 ladder.
I'm the one to talk to about submissions for inclusion in the map pack. I'm the designer of the 1v1s (though people are free to interpret the transformations of Blitz to Weldyn Channel and Charge to The Freelands as they will. ;)), some of the 2v2s and a number of other miscellaneous "officials." I also take care of all of the balancing modifications to all of the current maps, and decide if a map should be cut, added, etc.

It's very difficult for a map to make it into the pack, but I would not hesitate to add something if I found it to be distinct (in playstyle, aesthetic, etc.) and balanced (for all playersides and factional combinations).
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
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Post by enclave » February 27th, 2008, 6:01 pm

thanks for friendly replies, really nice of you

1) yes i know how to make 2v2 ladder work
what i can code is only -> program which would generate certain HTML code or even save it to some certain ftp address overwriting previous version. I can do that yes.. and it wont be hard.
You could use it to input the data manualy or just copy it from the forum or from somewhere, and it will generate the ladder with updated scores.
in this case you wouldnt need PHP coder if scores would be posted just in the forum. However it is much easier to find coder of PHP who will create same program to work on web.. no manual inputs.. no forums.. more simple.

http://www.enclave.valsts.lv/tebasga/
http://www.enclave.valsts.lv/zaraz/
examples of my ladder (from my long long ago past) (if interested in manual decision -> money free, i will do it slow but for pleasure)

how to make 2v2 ladder work:
It is not obligate to register teams.. ladder name could be "best team players" and...
when you play 2v2, when 1 team wins, both winners get + ranks
so if 4 players were "enclave" "noy" zookeeper" "noob" and noob+enclave won vs noy+zookeeper, then ranks show

enclave | 1 pt
noob | 1 pt
Noy | 0 pt (or -1pt depends on what kind of ranking you want)
Zookeeper | 0 pt

basicaly.. you can find any player to play in your team.. and if your team wins, you both get ranks.. for good team play..

if your imagination is different from mine, i dont mind it.. it was just an idea for 2v2 ladder. You the boss, and im just trying to help.

2) small map and big map is like light weight and heavy weight in boxing.. other settings would be already like american boxing and english boxing.. fighting with gloves or without... if you knwo what i mean.. but whatever, im not insisting on that part of my idea.

3) many people who play only clash lose like babies to players of isar on isar map.. same if reverse.. if same experienced players. but its ok, i dont mind your answer either.

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