Combatting anti-social behavior on the mp serv

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Viliam
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Post by Viliam »

Can we all agree on this?

* there should be a way to register usernames
* players should play also without registration, but it would be displayed who is registered and who is guest
* players should be able to do their private blacklists and whitelists

If yes, I think we should try this first, and then see what effects it will have. Later we will know more about the advantages and disadvantages of the system.

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La_vie_en_Wose
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Post by La_vie_en_Wose »

I liked what Taurus said about the spirit of the open minded community of Wesnoth and I like the proposal of Viliam saying that - as Dave refered to the eBay karma system - there should be registered users and, if not, guests.
A good point that we shan't forget :
As someone leaves the game after loosing two units - the MP system is well done - you are proposed to lead the leaving player if no one else whishes to share it. That's a very good point against bad MP behavior.
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Eleazar
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Post by Eleazar »

Taurus wrote:This problem isn't as big as a problem as many people seem to think it is.
Whatever the magnitude of the problem, it's reasonable to expect it to increase. Wesnoth's download count has skyrocketed in recent months, and upcoming releases should make many aspects of the game (including the MP lobby) feel much more responsive.
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Post by bert1 »

Viliam wrote:Can we all agree on this?

* there should be a way to register usernames
* players should play also without registration, but it would be displayed who is registered and who is guest
* players should be able to do their private blacklists and whitelists

If yes, I think we should try this first, and then see what effects it will have. Later we will know more about the advantages and disadvantages of the system.
Yes, I certainly agree with those. I think the registering of user names is most important. This won't stop rude behaviour (and is it even the developers job to do so?), but it will allow one to recognise friends without fear of dopplegangers and ignore everyone else.

I don't know how possible the following is, but perhaps some system of different 'rooms' with invitation only access might please some. Then the savages can rampage all over the common unrestricted area, but only the high and noble wesnothinans can enter the paved courtyard. I actually don't like this idea much, but if people want to insulate themselves from the 'Yah, dude, you suck' mob this might be one way to do it. (One guy said that to me when I said I only like playing with fog. I'm not sure what he meant.)

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La_vie_en_Wose
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Post by La_vie_en_Wose »

That was probably someone from the No fog of War clan.. I guess... :wink:
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Post by Noy »

Eleazar wrote:
Taurus wrote:This problem isn't as big as a problem as many people seem to think it is.
Whatever the magnitude of the problem, it's reasonable to expect it to increase. Wesnoth's download count has skyrocketed in recent months, and upcoming releases should make many aspects of the game (including the MP lobby) feel much more responsive.
Yes but you keep ignoring that the proposals won't do a thing to stop anti social behavior. The people who are the problem won't register their nicks and certainly don't care about "reputation." Actually I think it will probably foster MORE resentment and further anti social behavior, as people will see highly ranked players and taunt them or rebel against the whole system. Pushing these changes won't do a thing to alter the problem and I wish you'd stop trying to make it seem like they will.

I think the point I'm trying to get across is that we have been EXTREMELY fortunate to have the community we have today, because we've got a culture that emphasizes respect and fun. You and others seem to focus on the fact that the problem is getting worse, when you should question why we are fortunate that the problem is so minimal. You can't expect to remove this element completely, and in all honesty, many of the changes suggested here will actually encourage bad behaviour, and ruin the culture we have. Having Karma ratings, games played ratings, exclusive rooms will only push more people to act antisocially, not less, and its completely open to abuse. Registering nicks I think has bad elements and good elements, but its not going to help the problem. I think we'll have to accept it for the way it is, and maybe be a bit more strict on moderation, which I and others have been lately.

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Post by mrchadt »

I think a rules of behavior list might be a good idea. This although not easy to enforce will give people an idea of what is acceptable behavior and what isn't.
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Post by commanderkeen »

Viliam wrote:Can we all agree on this?

* there should be a way to register usernames
* players should play also without registration, but it would be displayed who is registered and who is guest
* players should be able to do their private blacklists and whitelists

If yes, I think we should try this first, and then see what effects it will have. Later we will know more about the advantages and disadvantages of the system.
I can agree with this. I dislike the star system, as it rates players based on how many games they have played. If there is such a system, I think it should be like this:

At the end of every game, people vote on whether each player was polite and friendly.
All this is converted into a percentage of Good vs. Bad votes for each player.
Each player has a face next to their name. The faces expression changes based on their Good-Bad vote percentages. So for example, people with a happy face have got at least 75% good votes. People with angry faces have got under 50% good votes and lose the ability to vote on other players.

This way, people get reputations not based on the number of games they play, but how friendly they are in those games that they do play.

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Post by bert1 »

Noy wrote:
Eleazar wrote: Whatever the magnitude of the problem, it's reasonable to expect it to increase. Wesnoth's download count has skyrocketed in recent months, and upcoming releases should make many aspects of the game (including the MP lobby) feel much more responsive.
Yes but you keep ignoring that the proposals won't do a thing to stop anti-social behavior. The people who are the problem won't register their nicks and certainly don't care about "reputation." Actually I think it will probably foster MORE resentment and further anti social behavior, as people will see highly ranked players and taunt them or rebel against the whole system. Pushing these changes won't do a thing to alter the problem and I wish you'd stop trying to make it seem like they will.

I think the point I'm trying to get across is that we have been EXTREMELY fortunate to have the community we have today, because we've got a culture that emphasizes respect and fun. You and others seem to focus on the fact that the problem is getting worse, when you should question why we are fortunate that the problem is so minimal. You can't expect to remove this element completely, and in all honesty, many of the changes suggested here will actually encourage bad behaviour, and ruin the culture we have. Having Karma ratings, games played ratings, exclusive rooms will only push more people to act antisocially, not less, and its completely open to abuse. Registering nicks I think has bad elements and good elements, but its not going to help the problem. I think we'll have to accept it for the way it is, and maybe be a bit more strict on moderation, which I and others have been lately.
I agree with your assessment that the trend is from civilised to normal, rather than from normal to barbaric, and that it is inevitable and perfectly OK.

However, there are some of delicate sensibilities that would like not to get into games with the slavering Orcs. They want to finish a game they play, and not have to put up with verbal abuse along the way. Well, they don't have to get into these games, provided they can recognise their human friends reliably. Hence the importance of registration of nicks.

It is not absolutely necessary to make special provisions for these sensitive gamers, but they may certainly appreciate it. And if these provisions were not publicly viewable (say, some kind of private setting such that only people on your 'friends list' may join or observe your game) then even if it did lead to resentment from the mead swilling berserkers, the delicate player need never know about it.

The only time a sensitive soul need be exposed to extreme savagery is when they log into the lobby. As soon as they have located friends and started a game then they are ensconced in their own cocoon, particularly if they turn off observers.

Noy seems to have come to the conclusion that there is only one realistic option: to just get used to playing with and tolerating rudeness (albeit more heavily moderated). While that is a perfectly good option, I don't see why it is necessarily the only one.

Noy said that none of the proposals will stop anti-social behaviour. This is clearly true. But there might be ways for people to PRIVATELY avoid it or filter it out. And registration of nicks would be an essential prerequisite of this.

Where I do agree completely with Noy is his rejection of any PUBLICLY viewable popularity, politeness, skill, or experience rating. Such a thing is in danger of being either preachy, patronising, cliquey, pretentious, or MySpace-ish. We'll all become popularity seekers and social climbers. It would be an example of a good intention paving the road to hell, IMHO.

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Post by Truper »

Bravo bert1!

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Post by Eleazar »

Noy wrote:
Eleazar wrote: Whatever the magnitude of the problem, it's reasonable to expect it to increase. Wesnoth's download count has skyrocketed in recent months, and upcoming releases should make many aspects of the game (including the MP lobby) feel much more responsive.
Yes but you keep ignoring that the proposals won't do a thing to stop anti social behavior.
I simply disagree with your opinion, which is quite different from ignoring an inconvenient fact. I make no claim to know our MP community nearly as well as you do, but your claims don't mesh with my understanding of people in general.
Noy wrote:The people who are the problem won't register their nicks and certainly don't care about "reputation."
I find it hard to believe that all trouble-makers are alike. Some people are only obnoxious if they feel they have nothing to loose, or if they believe they cannot be identified, later. A registered identify on the MP server isn't much, but it's a little accountability, and a little bit to loose, especially if the black/white list is attached to registration. I make no claims it will solve all problems, but it should be a nudge in the right direction.
Noy wrote:Actually I think it will probably foster MORE resentment and further anti social behavior, as people will see highly ranked players and taunt them or rebel against the whole system. Pushing these changes won't do a thing to alter the problem and I wish you'd stop trying to make it seem like they will.
You realize there are more than 2 options? Your reply seems to assume that i endorse nearly every security measure proposed here, which is not the case. I agree some of the ideas in this thread (esp. private "rooms" available only to the elite) would probably cause resentment. But any attempts to limit people (including heavier moderation) could cause resentment. In some causes (but probably not private room) the resentment caused is outweighed by benefits provided.
Noy wrote:I think the point I'm trying to get across is that we have been EXTREMELY fortunate to have the community we have today, because we've got a culture that emphasizes respect and fun. ...when you should question why we are fortunate that the problem is so minimal. You can't expect to remove this element completely, and in all honesty, many of the changes suggested here will actually encourage bad behaviour, and ruin the culture we have.
I agree that Wesnoth is an unusually good online culture. Wesnoth is not my favorite type of game, but most of my contributing time is here, because IMO we have an extremely productive, healthy, and pleasant community, especially if you consider the size. Preserving what is good should be a high priority, but is probably possible while also making some adjustments— unless we have already reached the peak of MP gaming perfection?


So, why are we so fortunate?
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Post by turin »

Eleazar wrote:I find it hard to believe that all trouble-makers are alike. Some people are only obnoxious if they feel they have nothing to loose, or if they believe they cannot be identified, later. A registered identify on the MP server isn't much, but it's a little accountability, and a little bit to loose, especially if the black/white list is attached to registration. I make no claims it will solve all problems, but it should be a nudge in the right direction.
But the people who are the problem will simply not register.
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Post by greywolfexcel »

Then add an option to disallow unregistered players from joining/observing a game. I don't think that would foster any resentment, because people already disallow observers and make private games amongst themselves and their friends.

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Post by Taurus »

Well said Noy. I think he brought up a very interesting question - exactally why is the Wesnoth community as great as it is? I think if we start finding answers to this question, then we would be able to keep the community that way.

I am not that well versed in all the different gaming communities, but it is interesting to note that some communities have all sorts of systems in place to combat anti-social behavour: big fancy regrestration processes, friends lists, privite rooms, ratings and all the rest of it. Despite all this, their community is really bad and anti social. Wesnoth on the other hand, currently has none of this, and the community is for the main part polite, casual, mature and intelligent. Anyhow have any idea as to why this is?

About registering nicknames, I think Eleazar has a piont in Wesnoth becoming more and more popular, and thus I don't really see the harm in having a SIMPLE sort of regrestration. A simple way of doing it, without detracting from the whole mood of wesnoth openness would say to have a four feild regrestration: (a) Your desired nickname (b) Your pasphrase (c) Confirm your passphrase, and (d) an optional email. Another thing, we shouldn't call it regrestiring your name. That whole word just reeks of red tape, complications, hidden conditions and all that junk. I would reccomend something more open and casual such as "Reserving" or "Holding" your nickname.

However, I don't think we should make a public distinction between those who have, and those who haven't reserved their nicknames. In aggreement with Noy, it would make a gap between the 'elite' with their 'special reserved names' and the casual newcomer just kind of surfing on. When I first came onto multiplayer, that was one of the beauities I found with it - weither new or old, pros or newbs, we were all looked equil. I can just see it now - people with their 'reserved' names looking down on those with unreserved names, "Oh, those guys are so green, or unconfident, or whattever that they don't even reserve their nicknames.' In essence, making a clear distinction would go against Wesnoth's open, relaxed casual mood. And last but certanly not least - it would make it more difficult for Doc to log on with all his phony aliases :-P

About privite blacklistls/whitelists, I also don't see the harm as long as they are not publically noticable. I definatley think it would be conterproductive if a person on somene's blacklst tries to log into a game, and it comes up with the message, "You are on this person's blacklist so get lost!" It would just create more resentment and perhaps make that person more prone to abuse. If there will be automatic ways of preventing people on your blacklist. they should be discreet. In essence, they should simply be an extension of the mental whilte/blacklist that a person makes.
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Post by Imp »

I like Taurus's idea of calling it reserving a nickname instead of registering it. It's like the red tape suddenly turned blue!

The stars and coloured lists system might be getting a bit complicated, but a basic way of recognising logged-in users and guests will make everything so much more pleasant. A lot of people here log onto Wesnoth to relax after work - perhaps after a bad and frustrating day - and we just want to chop some pixels up. The last thing we want is to find that Friend's_Name is actually an imposter and does things that only further frustrate us and waste our time. It's happened to me before, spending an hour on the first few turns and having them leave without notice. But I know a fair few regulars who are always fun (and challenging!) to play against, and know that when playing somebody new I am taking a risk of that happening. The last thing I want is to play against somebody I do know and then find it's some pretender. There have been a few issues with this.

Have a star next to a reserved name and no star on unreserved names. That way, people will want to reserve their name after noticing, "Oooh! Star!" Well, some will. Others will reserve their name because they want to be a part of the community and have other people be able to recognise them as the real deal. :-)

And after they reserve their name, they're much more likely to behave!

Sure, there may be some bad seeds, but at least the good seeds will be easier to recognise!

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