Wesnoth music and the future

Create music and sound effects for mainline or user-made content.

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SouthernOracle
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by SouthernOracle » May 3rd, 2009, 6:11 am

I just wanted to chime in here and say I completely agree with Jetryl. I understand that some people want to protect/receive due recognition for their work, but to offer works for use only to set snares of red tape around it is pointless.

Also I've been playing Wesnoth since 2007. It was the sprite work that got me hooked, but believe me I noticed that quality music on day one. I have never turned off my speakers on a game - it never gets boring. 8)

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gmlion
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by gmlion » May 3rd, 2009, 8:37 am

Jetryl wrote:

You should be able to do the work off the record, and not have it protected by SACEM. You don't need the protection if it's a gift; it's contrary to the entire nature of gifts. If you're not allowed to do that - if SACEM owns all of your music and prevents you from working on free hobby stuff, you've been had.
It's not a gift.
It is the actual situation here in Italy. I think it's supposed to be a sort of protection from unfair music publisher, but it ends to be a serious issue with projects like Wesnoth. In fact, I actually *have* to submit to SIAE everything for public use, commercial or not.

The most I could do would be not to obey. I don't know what would be the risks for me and Wesnoth, tough :(

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Jetrel
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by Jetrel » May 3rd, 2009, 9:21 am

gmlion wrote:
Jetryl wrote:You should be able to do the work off the record, and not have it protected by SACEM. You don't need the protection if it's a gift; it's contrary to the entire nature of gifts. If you're not allowed to do that - if SACEM owns all of your music and prevents you from working on free hobby stuff, you've been had.
It's not a gift.
It is the actual situation here in Italy. I think it's supposed to be a sort of protection from unfair music publisher, but it ends to be a serious issue with projects like Wesnoth. In fact, I actually *have* to submit to SIAE everything for public use, commercial or not.

The most I could do would be not to obey. I don't know what would be the risks for me and Wesnoth, tough :(
You're kidding me. :shock: What kind of "protection" is this?

That removes one of an artist's basic rights. Surely there's some way to tell them "anyone has permission to use this however they please?" I mean, if you can give permission for an individual group, you've gotta be able to make that group be "all humans"? Can't you?

These guys sound dangerously like the kind of "protect your right to earn money" that the RIAA offers. :( There's another term for that, and it's 'indentured service'.
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West
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by West » May 3rd, 2009, 12:52 pm

Jetryl wrote:These guys sound dangerously like the kind of "protect your right to earn money" that the RIAA offers. :( There's another term for that, and it's 'indentured service'.
France and Italy are two of the most repressive countries in the world when it comes to copyrights (in fact, the IFPI has its roots in fascist Italy). President Sarkozy is doing everything in his power to make the EU regulate the internet and Italy has far reaching plans for internet censorship, so the fact that French and Italian musicians are more or less forced to join these "protection" organizations, which have close ties with the IFPI, comes as no big surprise.

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gmlion
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by gmlion » May 3rd, 2009, 5:35 pm

Jetryl wrote:
gmlion wrote: It's not a gift.
It is the actual situation here in Italy. I think it's supposed to be a sort of protection from unfair music publisher, but it ends to be a serious issue with projects like Wesnoth. In fact, I actually *have* to submit to SIAE everything for public use, commercial or not.

The most I could do would be not to obey. I don't know what would be the risks for me and Wesnoth, tough :(
You're kidding me. :shock: What kind of "protection" is this?

That removes one of an artist's basic rights. Surely there's some way to tell them "anyone has permission to use this however they please?" I mean, if you can give permission for an individual group, you've gotta be able to make that group be "all humans"? Can't you?
Of course, they would be more than happy for collecting royalties from "all humans" :(

Well, West has said it all. We aren't having great times concerning freedom here :evil:

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West
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by West » May 3rd, 2009, 7:32 pm

Kirk wrote:However, I think you're shooting yourself in the foot by generally not allowing loops. Many programs allow you to adjust loops, edit tempo and key. It just takes a good musical ear and some music theory to make it happen. We need to know what your idea of a loop is. Do you feel Pachelbel's Canon, or the timpani in Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra" loops?
What do you mean, 'what your idea of a loop is'? Obviously it's you who doesn't know what a loop is, otherwise you wouldn't say something like that.

Also, at the risk of sounding like some stuck up, grumpy conservativist, making music is not supposed to be easy. Same as writing a novel is not supposed to be easy. Good music requires hard work and knowledge of the tools at your disposal. I know there's some musicians who do incredibly creative things with loops, but most people see loops as a shortcut to making professional-sounding music. Look ma, I made a song! Moreover, we don't allow music built from loops because that's not orchestral music.

But as I've said several times before, things like percussion loops are fine if it's done tastefully. It's the idea of putting together whole songs from loops that I'm objecting against. If you can't make music any other way you're not a musician, and you have no business trying to contribute music to the game. Period.

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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by Jetrel » May 3rd, 2009, 9:44 pm

West wrote:
Kirk wrote:However, I think you're shooting yourself in the foot by generally not allowing loops. Many programs allow you to adjust loops, edit tempo and key. It just takes a good musical ear and some music theory to make it happen. We need to know what your idea of a loop is. Do you feel Pachelbel's Canon, or the timpani in Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra" loops?
What do you mean, 'what your idea of a loop is'? Obviously it's you who doesn't know what a loop is, otherwise you wouldn't say something like that.

Also, at the risk of sounding like some stuck up, grumpy conservativist, making music is not supposed to be easy. Same as writing a novel is not supposed to be easy. Good music requires hard work and knowledge of the tools at your disposal. I know there's some musicians who do incredibly creative things with loops, but most people see loops as a shortcut to making professional-sounding music. Look ma, I made a song! Moreover, we don't allow music built from loops because that's not orchestral music.

But as I've said several times before, things like percussion loops are fine if it's done tastefully. It's the idea of putting together whole songs from loops that I'm objecting against. If you can't make music any other way you're not a musician, and you have no business trying to contribute music to the game. Period.
Yeah. Making a decent song with loops is a little like making a decent portrait via frankensteining. Theoretically possible, but if you're actually good enough to pull it off, you'd have the necessary skills to make music without it, and you'd be better off doing so because it'd be an incredible amount of work to hide the telltale signs of being slapped together from readymade parts - moreso than it would to just make something from scratch.

To all the nerds out there who see this as a point they're just dying to nitpick, stop already. :P We know.
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by Spi » May 4th, 2009, 7:00 pm

AFAIK I'm in France and French, yet this is the first time I hear about such abusive control over artistic publications. If Mr. Sarkozy tries pulling that one on us you can be pretty sure there'll be a lot of grumpy manifestations from plenty of artists, French or not... today he justifies the "measures of protection" against "piracy". If he takes a step too far it's all going to run out of his control: nobody wants to be controlled like that and when people controlling others realize they're being controlled by an even bigger entity, they're going to be grumpy. There's enough of them as it is.
These kinds of laws you are evoking are direct abuses of the unalienable right of Free Speech which is supposed to be in the Universal Rights of Man (I think). Do news reporters and authors have to report to that same organisation in Italy? Do little schoolboys who make drawings have to scan them and send them? It seems a bit illogical in my opinion...

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Aleksi
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by Aleksi » May 4th, 2009, 11:15 pm

The problem with the Sacem, Siae, and the other European protection facilities, is that they do everything to protect your rights! I mean the goal is to PROTECT, so they DO IT, but it excessively!

So, about the Sacem, which i know about because i am a member (and soon won't be anymore) is that it works great if you are in the CD , film and commercial industry. If you want to work in videogames, internet or similar medias, then Sacem is not for you. Why? Because they use the same system they did 30 years ago. But things have evolved, and not them. It will happen trough time, but it isn't for now... unfortunately!

If only they gave the possibility to be more flexible and donate music (rights), then it would be perfect...

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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by Boucman » May 9th, 2009, 8:06 pm

Aleksi wrote:
So, about the Sacem, which i know about because i am a member (and soon won't be anymore)

Yay :)

more music from Aleksi coming ?
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Aleksi
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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by Aleksi » May 9th, 2009, 9:46 pm

Boucman wrote:
Aleksi wrote: more music from Aleksi coming ?
He he he... maybe... maybe... :)

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Re: Wesnoth music and the future

Post by JLS » May 9th, 2009, 11:33 pm

Wow, Aleksi... I just sampled some of your work from your website. I really hope that you find a way and decide to contribute some more. :)

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