A new IDEA for scouting units

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turin
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A new IDEA for scouting units

Post by turin »

First of all, this is the IDEAS forum, so don't get mad at me if you really hate this idea.

I have always thought that advancing scouts (as in the Elvish Scout unit and the Cavalry unit) was not really worth it, since the upgrade is not much better, and the experience was better used on other units. also, all scouts really do is flag villages, right?

my idea is to give the upgrades of scouting units a 'scouting' ability, which would make it so they did not lose all of their movement when they flagged a village. for example, if there were three villages next to each other, an advanced scout could flag all of them on the same turn, without waiting a turn after flagging each village. thus, the 'scouting' ability would be similar to the 'skirmishing' ability.
The main advantage of this is it makes it more worth it to advance scouts. I do not think it would make the advancements too powerful, but there is always that possibility. Well, what do you think?
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Bad idea

Post by Insinuator »

Foolish and puny mortal, how dare you impune upon the dignity of this forum with your pathetic and hopeless ignorance?! Just kidding.

Seriously, though, I beleive that that may be dangerously unbalance the game. You are correct, scouts are not that powerful, but they are not supposed to be powerful. Giving them the ability to capture multiple villages in the same turn would extremely enhance their value. With only two of these units, on average, probably four villages could be taken. Whoever had these units would have a serious advantage.

Because of this advantage, the type of play would become predominant. If that is obviously the best way to go, why do it differently? One of the plusses of Wesnoth is deciding what to buy, and that mattering.

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turin
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Post by turin »

correct, and currently the only way to play is by NOT using scouts, as far i can find out. scouts do not prove useful to me, and i think this would enhance their usefulness. remember, this would only be for second level units, not first level units.
it would be useful, yes, but no overly powerful. most villages are too spread out to flag more than one a turn anyway, at least on large maps. On small maps this would prove useful, so perhaps a two-village maximum should be imposed, or flagging a village should take two movement.
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Dave
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Post by Dave »

I think this is a reasonable suggestion. One that should be considered for a new ability.

Personally, I like scouts, and I like advancing them. I think that a unit that can hit reasonably hard at speed is invaluable.

That's not to say there is no room for this idea though -- it could make the game interesting to have a unit with such an ability. It'd probably have to have movement that isn't too fast though (or make taking a village cost substantial movement points).

David
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turin
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Post by turin »

my idea is to have it so advanced scouts can flag a village and it only takes 3 or 4 movement, not their whole turn. they would have movement of about 9, so it they started out 2 hexes away from a village, they would be able to move three hexes after flagging the village. since most vilages, i think, are not three hexes or less away from each other (at least on larger scenarios), this would not allow them to flag more than one village a turn. at most they could flag three villages a turn, if they were a adjacent villages and he started next to one of them.

the reason i proposed this is on most maps, increased movement from 9 to 10 is not going to matter, since you flag a village each turn anyway. thus the upgrade from scout to outrider is not worth it if you are going to use outrider as a scouting unit.
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Christophe33
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Post by Christophe33 »

I also like Turin proposition for second level scout unit. Very rarely you have 3 villages clustered within 3 hex of each other, so most of the time you will not get more than 2 villages. Mostly you will be able to move a bit after going through a village. When using scout I often decide to bypass a closeby village because it ends the move and I prefer to 'scout" around instead to find out more villages or enemy units (in fog of war). A cost of 2 or 3 for going through the village should be enough to avoid abuse...or setting a maximum of 2 village/round.
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Kamahawk
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Post by Kamahawk »

I understand this kind of upgrade for Outriders who realy don't benefit much from upgrading, but the other scout units Wolf Rider adn Cavalry are worth leveling with out this kind of abillity. Maybe we could have scout level 2 branches of these units.
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miyo
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Post by miyo »

Scout already has more value when you are playing with FoW. If you don't play games with FoW, then you most likely do not need to use scouts.

Scouts are good as they are. If you don't like them, don't use them. I use them, Dave uses them.

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lala

Post by lala »

I like them. In the princess scenario for example they cut down on number of turns to reach villages in the north. Advancing a elf scout isn't usefull and hard to achieve however, because there is a great risk of losing them in a full scale battle.
I like the idea as proposed, where it costs x movement to 'visit' a village for 2 lvl. Exclude scouts specialising in fighting from this, like wolf rider/paladin.
One thing I'd like to mention though. The teleporting mages can directly make use of the village, which is a great advantage, say, in Gryphon mountain

Just my 2 ct.

aSosoMan

Post by aSosoMan »

I like the idea of the new ability, don't know if for the 2nd lvl outrider or implemented as a reward for the next extra 150xp (as discused on other board) on the 2nd level unit.

This would benefit the use of this unit at lvl2. As now, I don't get the benefits of lvl 1 versus lvl 2. Really they are better, but I would prefer getting the xp on another unit rather than on scouts. (That's doesn't mean that I don't like the scouts, I use them almost always and I level them always, but once leveled, I prefer using new lvl 1 units... :)

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Post by Dave »

Reasons why Elvish Outriders are powerful imo (discounting FoW/Shroud):

- if an Elvish Outrider is capturing villages, and meets some enemy advanced scouts (say two-three wolf riders) who are also capturing villages, the Outrider can contend with them. The Elvish Scout will have to retreat or be killed, either way letting the enemies capture the villages.
- Outriders can enter the battle from a long distance back, hitting that enemy that you just couldn't quite kill, and threatens you next turn.
- In general, any place on the battle field that needs some assistance fighting, the Outrider can arrive at with speed.

That said, the 'scouting' ability could be added to the Outrider as a possible 'upgrade'.

David
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Post by Insinuator »

Scouts are good units. In fact, adding to Dave's comment, Scouts/Outriders can at least hang up the enemy long enough to get better guys up there, or provide a screen for heavily weakened leaders. In addition, the sight range for scouts is tremendous in Fog of War missions, giving you the extra edge needed to anticipate the AI's next move, a powerful enough ability by itself.

cobretti
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Post by cobretti »

Scouts are very useful units, but usually you don't realise until you can't use them :wink: . I realised when I tried to play multiplayer games with the Knalgan Alliance when they had no scouts (they have now).
Even without fog of war, they allow you to speed your strength up at start of the game, getting towns far away from your keep. And in the heat of the battle, having three or four scouts at second line and using them to lock escaping heavily damaged units without deorganizing your first line so you can kill him with the unit you want, but probably would not reach it in time is unvaluable.

In fact, same applies to leadership. At first, you can be tempted to dislike it, preferring upgrades with better attacks. Maybe in campaign it is worth, but in multiplayer, where is difficult to get many upgraded units, you'll learn it the hard way. :twisted: .

BTW, I had a multiplayer replay which showed it very clear, among other game concepts, but it got corrupted when upgrading to latest version. :cry:

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Post by Eponymous-Archon »

I like Scouts too. Good to distract the enemy (often) and to get villages. And they can do fairly well in small groups.

As to the suggestion, maybe we could try it out? Would it be really hard to code, Dave and others?
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Dave
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Post by Dave »

No, it wouldn't be hard to code. Perhaps after 0.7 is out we will try it.

David
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