[mainline] Melee "marksman"

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revolting_peasant
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by revolting_peasant » April 27th, 2018, 3:54 pm

beetlenaut wrote:
April 22nd, 2018, 9:16 am
It's a weapon special, so none of those others make any sense.
Not really: We see it as a trait of the _character_, without weapons being mentioned. Thus we have "Strong", which is about Melee damage.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 28th, 2018, 1:19 am

I'm not in favour of a poll, at least not at this point in time. I haven't seen any suggestions that I really like enough suggestions that I feel could actually work.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 28th, 2018, 3:41 pm

I'll summarize the suggestions so far, with my own comments on each of them.
  • accuracy - Works perfectly, but would also work perfectly for ranged, which might be confusing if it's not actually used for ranged; on the other hand this might not work so well for non-physical attacks (like a drain touch)
  • (weapon)mastery - Too long, plus not all attacks are necessarily a weapon
  • mastery - Too generic; Master-at-arms won't have it, creating irony
  • precision - Works pretty well, but would also work just as well for ranged, which might be confusing if it's not actually used for ranged; however it's still a little vague.
  • duellist - There's already a unit with this name, plus this doesn't have the right connotation
  • proficiency - Might work
  • prowess - Could work but feels a bit too vague to me
  • ninja - Much too specific, the units with this ability aren't stealth-based
  • mêleur - Doesn't have the right connotation (just means a fighter, nothing about precision)
  • wrangler - Same problem as above
  • deft - Too vague and wouldn't typically apply to weapon use
  • adroit - Same problem as above
  • master-at-arms - Same problem as duellist
  • riposte - Has more of a counterattack type meaning, rather than accuracy
  • focus - Too vague, doesn't really imply accuracy in my opinion
  • devoted - Same as above
  • disciplined - Same as above
  • hawk eye - Could work for ranged but doesn't really apply to melee; the connotation is more that you have good vision
  • unerring - Works but doesn't sound that good; plus it would also work for ranged, which might be confusing if it's not actually used for ranged
As you can see there have been a lot of suggestions but none that clearly work well for melee only. On the other hand, there are a couple that would work well for both ranged and melee if we want to actually rename the existing weapon special.
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Bitron
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Bitron » April 28th, 2018, 5:06 pm

Accuracy works perfect for both and adding something existing with a different name seems a bit rendundant to me, as is keeping marksman just for historical reasons.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Pentarctagon » April 28th, 2018, 5:13 pm

Though shouldn't it instead be "Accurate"?
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 28th, 2018, 8:19 pm

Yeah, probably.

I don't really like dropping the use of "marksman" as the name of the ranged weapon special, but if we can't come up with anything good for melee-only, I guess it's acceptable. The term "marksman" will still be used in some of the unit names (and maybe descriptions), anyway.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by monochromatic » April 28th, 2018, 9:54 pm

Why are we not using the same name for melee and ranged, again? It's a weapon special that affects chance-to-hit: if we have two names for this weapon special, why not have two names for 'magical'? Seems anti-KISS to have two terms for the exact same effect.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 28th, 2018, 9:56 pm

There were no melee marksman units in mainline until the khalifate were added. That's why the name is so range-oriented. The name is really good for a ranged attack, but not so great for a melee attack, so now that khalifate are mainlined (as dunefolk), we need to figure out how to deal with it.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by monochromatic » April 28th, 2018, 9:59 pm

I understand that 'marksman' is a wonderful name—I like it too, plus the fact that it has been around for a long time—but shouldn't we value clarity and simplicity over legacy?

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Ravana » April 28th, 2018, 11:02 pm

Alternate option might be to again remove marksman from that attack and use accuracy= to have unnamed similar effect.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by beetlenaut » April 28th, 2018, 11:21 pm

Strangely, this has not been mentioned yet: expert.

I would not be opposed to seeing that on both ranges either. If master is out, none of the others sound that good to me.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 29th, 2018, 12:00 am

Just noting that using accuracy= won't have the same effect as the current marksman special, as accuracy is purely additive while marksman is max(60, normal_CTH).
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Spixi
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Spixi » May 2nd, 2018, 11:31 pm

Well, Wesnoth is not Reality. I think “marksman” is a simple and easy to understand name for that trait. Having two different abilities with the same effect may unnecessary confusion, especially to new players. We could agree that the term “marksman” in the Wesnoth world has a broader meaning than in the real world.

Other round-based RPGs have similar issues. Example: the Water Pokémon Seaking is a goldfish and it learns Peck, which is a Flying move, because it is normally used by bird-like Pokémon, which have a beak. Although Seaking pecks with its horn, it is still a Flying move. It is all about the recognition value. In Pokémon, Peck is always a Flying move, independent of the user, so in Wesnoth, “marksman” is always a trait which improves the accuracy of an attack, independent whether it is melee, ranged or whatever. It is just a name.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Vulpine » May 3rd, 2018, 2:24 pm

hrubymar10 wrote:
April 15th, 2018, 8:47 pm
Much bigger problem is it in other languages.

For example Czech have 'marksman' translated as 'odstřelovač' which means somebody very skilled with bow and only bow...
And:
Spixi wrote:
May 2nd, 2018, 11:31 pm
We could agree that the term “marksman” in the Wesnoth world has a broader meaning than in the real world.
Does anybody else think it's a good idea?

The main problem that I can think of is people wouldn't naturally assume such, which means somebody has to explain, which in turn means it's not a good solution... unless you come up with a Wesnothian word that you can use; the description could read something like: "loosely translated it means 'Marksman'.
Though I'm all for keeping Marksman.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Caladbolg » May 3rd, 2018, 3:10 pm

I don't think it'd be a problem if we keep it as Marksman. First time players will have to look at the attack special description anyways to know what it does. I mean, slow and magical are also not obvious without looking them up. Once someone gets into the game, they will know what possible specials attacks in mainline can have, like for example halving target's attack dmg and doubling movement costs, always having 70% cth, healing the attacker for half the damage done, etc.

All that the name for a special needs is a stronger association to one effect than to others. If you know the effects, it's pretty clear which one 'slow' refers to. And which one 'poison' refers to. 'Magical' and 'Marksman' are arguably the most similar as they both affect the cth, but the association is still pretty clear- 'magical' will hit/miss at the same rate regardless of any influences which is... well, magical; and marksman lets you hit more often when you have time to aim at the target, like when you're attacking.

So I don't have a problem with Marksman. It might not be the most accurate (pun not intended), but neither is the 'poison' as it can push a unit to the brink of death but it won't ever kill it. However, I'd also have no problem with it being named 'precise'/'accurate' or some variation thereof. Maybe 'Aim' would also work well.

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