Fantasy creatures/historic units not in Wesnoth

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Noy
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Post by Noy »

playtom wrote:we must focus on selecting decent existing ideas and refining them, for example, further improve and balance creatures that's already being made in some user made add-ons. i'm sure we'll come up with a few good units if not dozens that will be implemented into the default era (like a new monster/wild creature faction, thats already been done somewhere).
We must? No we don't have to at all.

Edward V Riley wrote:
Tell me that those aren't adapted from Dragonlance Draconians....
Excuse me? No they aren't. Neither I nor zookeeper, read Dragonlance, and truth be told, I've got better things to do with my time than read pulp fantasy books.

Edward V Riley wrote:Seriously, the Drakes need a healer type. A battlefield Medic would sure come in handy playing these. Since I've been playing Drakes, I've basically had to be expendable with them, especially since the scenarios so far have the villages far apart, not to mention the fact that they all seem to lean into hits. By that, I mean the enemy units hit them very, very easily and often. What's the use of having more hit points if they're so hit prone? At least compensate for their tough, leathery hides by not doing as much damage.
God. They have something already to "compensate" with. Seriously. Its called mobility, probably their greatest asset. They also have some of the most effective attacks of any faction in the default era.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.

Edward V Riley
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Post by Edward V Riley »

I looked up Flight TO Freedom's page in a different forum thread, and I believe it was Zookeeper who said he was using Draconians as a basis. I've no problem with that whatsoever. He simply adapted an existing idea for Wesnoth purposes, making it unique as there's no game that I know of with Draconians in it. So I'm not griping about where he got it, just saying he did a good job with them.

The best stories/books with Draconians in them are by Richard Knaak. Weis/HIckman may have created them, but he gave them structure and style.

Between my last post, I've been playing the Drakes and getting the hang of using them. Yes, their mobility is good, and I've discovered actual military formations work best for them, especially flying wedges and box formations, not to mention solid lines with no gaps. I've learned to simply withdraw damaged units to behind the lines and formations and advance with the healthy units. I've also used hit and run tactics with the gliders and they work extremely well, better than Elvish scouts. So I no longer think a healer unit is necessary.

The Undead faction seems to be one of the most needing new types of units, at least for variety. Vampires and Werewolves are already widely discussed, but has anyone mentioned much about Wights, Banshees, and Mummies? If so,link me up.
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Noy
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Post by Noy »

I think you're under the mistaken impression more units = better gameplay. It doesn't. Default's attraction for gameplay is its balance and styles of play, not more cool units. Adding more units negatively affects both; it dilutes factional strategies by adding superflous units and just makes balancing all the more difficult. The Undead don't need "more units," as they do just fine as they are, having effective counters for all possible factions.

So no, more units are not needed/nor required.

Ps. something you might want to note: Drakes also have a healer. Its called the Augur.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.

Weeksy
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Post by Weeksy »

Noy, more units for option in campaigns can be more exciting. I think this is what Edgar is going for. Something edgar probably should check out is The EE unit listing, as this has quite a few more units. The EoM unit listing is also very varied, although it needs some work.
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Edward V Riley
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Post by Edward V Riley »

Thank you Weeksy.

More units also means more strategy and more options. I've played campaigns that were well written and done, but I tired of killing the same old orcs over and over again, same with most any faction.

I'm looking into developing some of these myself. Give me time as my eyesight isn't very good so I may be slow as molasses in wintertime.

oooo. Love these units you linked me to, thanks again.

Looking at them this way, I'm asking myself again why I should ever make a horseman become a Lancer at all. Perhaps a Queen's Lancer should be a level 3 for them. Or simply a Charger. Not from San Diego, of course.

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TL
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Post by TL »

Edward V Riley wrote:More units also means more strategy and more options.
More options doesn't always mean more strategy. If there are too many unit options, it just becomes a matter of choosing the best unit for each specific situation. Not really much strategy in that since it's usually pretty obvious. The strategy arises from having to build solutions to the problems you're presented with from a limited number of tools available.

A little bit more variety in longer campaigns would still be nice, especially when it comes to enemies. I think in some campaigns, also, the problem isn't that there's not enough unit options but that the unit options that exist aren't always supported well enough. e.g. getting mermen recruits but not many scenarios with enough water to make training them worthwhile.
Edward V Riley wrote:Looking at them this way, I'm asking myself again why I should ever make a horseman become a Lancer at all.
Because it's faster and capable of inflicting more damage than any other unit you can field? You should be using level 3 units sparingly anyhow. Do not underestimate level 1 and 2 units, especially when you have Leadership available.

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Post by Weeksy »

Lancer is a utility unit... search the forum for the topic... they die easier, but deal lots and lots of damage, and are fast... there are reasons to get lancers, there are reasons to get knights. I personally prefer Lancers most of the time, but you don't want too many in campaigns.
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Edward V Riley
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Post by Edward V Riley »

  • A little bit more variety in longer campaigns would still be nice, especially when it comes to enemies. I think in some campaigns, also, the problem isn't that there's not enough unit options but that the unit options that exist aren't always supported well enough. e.g. getting mermen recruits but not many scenarios with enough water to make training them worthwhile.
Very, very true. And go back to Warsong, the Merman units are practically useless after Scenario 10 due to lack of water terrain. ANd of course, variety would spice things up and make it more interesting.

No, the times I've used lancers I end up making them the equivalent of a slightly slower elvish scout and simply run from village to village, getting a hit now and then and sometimes, if I'm lucky, a kill. Put them anywhere near an enemy and they're sure to die fast, unless they're protected, and what use is their mobility when you have to have slower units around them for protection?
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

I split the pointless flamewar and related other off-topic (or whatever it was) posts to elsewhere, where it can be dealt with. Carry on.

Edward V Riley
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Post by Edward V Riley »

Has there been much mention of Mummies in other threads? Adding them to the undead faction would fit right in. Perhaps making them strong on melee, no ranged(possibly able to throw something, but I doubt it), slow on movement, but with a lot of hp. Perhaps have it as a mummy, then a blood mummy(I've actually seen this in DragonQuest 8), then maybe a Mummy King.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Edward V Riley wrote:Has there been much mention of Mummies in other threads? Adding them to the undead faction would fit right in. Perhaps making them strong on melee, no ranged(possibly able to throw something, but I doubt it), slow on movement, but with a lot of hp. Perhaps have it as a mummy, then a blood mummy(I've actually seen this in DragonQuest 8), then maybe a Mummy King.
I don't recall it really being suggested...sounds like something that'd fit as an undead monster unit - usually or never recruitable by anyone but something that could wander in a cave or act as a guardian of some sort. Lots of HP and probably good resistances too. It would be nice if it had some other specialty besides that and being strong in melee; we already have a lot of units and some monsters and such which are strong in melee but lack most other things. Some kind of a magical ability or weapon special would fit a mummy, I think, would just need to come up with one. Alternatively it could be an alternate advancement to the WC or just a lvl2 Soulless.

Edward V Riley
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Post by Edward V Riley »

Hmm. Of the existing magic specialties, I see lightning fitting for some odd reason, don't ask me why. Perhaps rename it "curse" for him but with the same effects used. I don't see a weapon specialty, but it's melee with simple fists could be enough. Usually,in fiction, the mummy is depicted as having phenomenal strength.

Yes, making it or several of them guardians for special scenarios instead of recruitable units makes more sense. Of course, Barrow Wights could also be used in the same way.
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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

Hmm... just sketching posible mummy stats

lvl 3 (undead monster)
HP 70
chaotic
undead
movment 4
move table (same as a walking corpse)
defence table (same as walking corpse
Attacks
Fist:melle:impact: 20-2 plauge (souless)
Curse:ranged:arcane: 10-1 poison

Resistances
Blade 30%
peirce 40%
Impact 10%
Cold 60%
Fire -40%
Arcane -50%

EDIT reversed attack statistics (dam/strikes)
Last edited by Velensk on August 10th, 2007, 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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joshudson
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Post by joshudson »

You really want to watch that fight? 20 melee strikes and 10 ranged strikes?
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Edward V Riley
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Post by Edward V Riley »

Perhaps it could be 10 strikes, 4hp damage each? The cuttlefish's Swarm does sometime seem to last a while and 20 strikes might be too many.

I do like the stats you proposed though. THanks for posting them.

I'm reminded of a quote from a movie where two kids were referencing The Mummy: "Oh no! Here comes the Mummy!. Let's walk faster". Point being, that 4 is an apt movement for this creature.
Who Knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?
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