You can kill an army with an Ancient Lich

[Arrogancy]

After slogging my way through the last adventure in Descent into Darkness, I noticed that after I'd killed the enemy mages, their (melee-only) units wouldn't attack either Malin (by now an ancient lich) or any of my spectres. The enemies in question had only blade or pierce weapons, so in a fight with a spectre or an ancient lich, the lich/spectre was more likely to gan hp than lose it.

That was the last fight before the adventure looped. When I saw the Orc hero again, I decided to have some fun. Against spectres, the enemy would still attack with their ranged guys, knowing the ranged attackers were likely to survive the spectres' terrible ranged attack. Against an ancient lich, however, they would not.

I discovered that by standing Malin on a village I could actually kill the entire orc army with just him. The AI just doesn't know what to do-- some turns it will actually stand all of its troops back so none of them are adjacent to Malin. By the end of the fight I wasn't even bothering with the village anymore.

Thing is, the AI should have killed me no prob. It just needs to suicide run with archers-- Malin will eat like 10 of them, sure, but he won't heal. Then, he'll die.

As it is though, I have a 95 hp ancient lich. I'm kind of curious as to how far I can take this.

[Joram]

Try to get some sort of error because you have too many hp would be my suggestion.

[turin]

This is why ancient lichs are amazing. I remember back when you could get them as a normal advancement of the DA->Necromancer->Lich path. It made MP games vs the AI loads of fun - just pick Lich as your leader, plant him on a village, slay the oncoming hordes until he levels up, keep playing till you get bored.

Wow, I just noticed how long ago this had to have been - not only was it before Necromancers were renamed to Dark Sorcerers, it was before you got level 2 units instead of level 3s as leaders in MP.

[JW]

Wow, I just noticed how long ago this had to have been - not only was it before Necromancers were renamed to Dark Sorcerers, it was before you got level 2 units instead of level 3s as leaders in MP.

Um....you mean like in Age of Heroes?

Level 2 traitless units (for non-dwarves) are the standard leaders in default era play.

[turin]

Wow, I just noticed how long ago this had to have been - not only was it before Necromancers were renamed to Dark Sorcerers, it was before you got level 2 units instead of level 3s as leaders in MP.

Um....you mean like in Age of Heroes?

Level 2 traitless units (for non-dwarves) are the standard leaders in default era play.

I think you mis-read me. I said "it was before you got level 2 units instead of level 3s as leader is MP". I.e. you used to get level 3s as your leader in standard MP matches (this was a LONG time ago) but now you get level 2s (of course you could play an AoH match if you wanted to, I guess, but that's not what I was thinking of).

Or maybe I misread your post. *shrug*

[JW]

I think you mis-read me. I said "it was before you got level 2 units instead of level 3s as leader is MP". I.e. you used to get level 3s as your leader in standard MP matches (this was a LONG time ago) but now you get level 2s (of course you could play an AoH match if you wanted to, I guess, but that's not what I was thinking of).

Or maybe I misread your post. *shrug*

Hmm. I guess that was even before my time (slightly after 1.0). I don't remember having lvl 3 leaders ever outside of AoH. I think I misread something somewhere, because what you wrote is pretty clear.

/edit: so what level leaders did AoH have, or did that era not even exist yet?

[turin]

Hmm. I guess that was even before my time (slightly after 1.0). I don't remember having lvl 3 leaders ever outside of AoH. I think I misread something somewhere, because what you wrote is pretty clear.

/edit: so what level leaders did AoH have, or did that era not even exist yet?

Yeah, this was back in, oh, probably 0.8 or so, though I don't remember exactly.

IIRC, AoH existed, but they had level 3 leaders just like default, the only difference was being able to recruit level 2 units.

[TheGreatRings]

Would this work vs all default factions, or only orcs? I mean, orcs hardly have the best units for countering a lich.

Hmm, I guess I'll just have to try lich vs each different faction in multiplayer and see the results.

[Sangel]

Yeah, this was back in, oh, probably 0.8 or so, though I don't remember exactly.

IIRC, AoH existed, but they had level 3 leaders just like default, the only difference was being able to recruit level 2 units.

That fits with my recollection too.

Also, back in those days L2 and L3 elves were... significantly better... than they currently are... like, 10-5 melee for an Elvish Avenger better...

[Joram]

Yeah, this was back in, oh, probably 0.8 or so, though I don't remember exactly.

IIRC, AoH existed, but they had level 3 leaders just like default, the only difference was being able to recruit level 2 units.

That fits with my recollection too.

Also, back in those days L2 and L3 elves were... significantly better... than they currently are... like, 10-5 melee for an Elvish Avenger better...

lol, I remember those days to.

IIRC, the Elvish Champions used to be 9-4 bow and 16-4 sword.

[turin]

IIRC, the Elvish Champions used to be 9-4 bow and 16-4 sword.

I think it was 14-4 sword, strong ones would get 16-4, though perhaps I'm wrong. And Sharpshooters would get 14-4 ranged or something like that. Or maybe it was 12-5... I'm pretty sure it was better than 10-5 though.

[Joram]

I think it was 14-4 sword, strong ones would get 16-4, though perhaps I'm wrong.

You're quite possibly right. Though that would mean that the Champions had 56 max damage with the Avengers having 50, plus a better bow.

I also remember that units you recruit could have "loyal" as a trait; but as it didn't have an explanation when you hovered over it, and I don't think that the manual explained it (either that, or I just didn't check), I didn't know what it did, and didn't care if one of those units died.

[turin]

I also remember that units you recruit could have "loyal" as a trait; but as it didn't have an explanation when you hovered over it, and I don't think that the manual explained it (either that, or I just didn't check), I didn't know what it did, and didn't care if one of those units died.

Well, loyal wasn't as powerful back then either; just -1 gold to upkeep, not upkeep -> 0 (so, level 1 units are free, level 2s cost 1g/turn, etc - still overpowered, but not amazingly so).

[Jetrel]

Hmm. I guess that was even before my time (slightly after 1.0). I don't remember having lvl 3 leaders ever outside of AoH. I think I misread something somewhere, because what you wrote is pretty clear.

/edit: so what level leaders did AoH have, or did that era not even exist yet?

Yeah, this was back in, oh, probably 0.8 or so, though I don't remember exactly.

IIRC, AoH existed, but they had level 3 leaders just like default, the only difference was being able to recruit level 2 units.

Yeah, the L3 leadership units for loyalists and elves in default had some MAJOR balance implications; they were overpowered, because you got an across-the-board 50% damage boost to anything they could reach. But that said, you virtually had to get them, period, because at the time our opposing factions like northerners and undead were grossly overpowered.

It was some semblance of "balanced", but it was a much sloppier (and most importantly) more volatile balance than it is now. Volatility in balance tends to me to seem to be a bad thing. It's usually much easier to design with, and more enjoyable, if you have more stable of an equilibrium point in the "chance to win" for each faction.

[Iris]

Try to get some sort of error because you have too many hp would be my suggestion.

AFAIK it'll just wrap around and at some point you'll have negative hitpoints, which will be reset to 1 HP on the next turn if your unit is resting or being healed.