Balance changes for Wesnoth 1.20

[Kapiork]

And even if I understand why the Elf archer get the blade resistance, I agree with who said that thematically it makes no sense, unless the depiction get changed with him wearing some sort of leather or chainmail armour,

Honestly if the sprite got changed I could maybe get behind the blade resistance. The Elvish Fighter got a makeover some time ago, so why not the Archer?

It can't be chainmail however since elves are hurt by iron, which is what chainmail rings are made of. Notice how no elvish unit wears plate armor, only leather.

But the proposed HI has a larger problem. It violates the KISS principle and produces bad UX because the basic defences of this unit are never applied now. In the UI and in the help menu there are some dodge percenatges but the actual ones are either lower or higher. HI has 50% on castle, it's written in the help menu, it shows when you hover your mouse over a castle hex, but it's never 50%: it's either 40% or 70% depending on the range. So the actual defense is now useless and confusing for that unit. And it's still extremely weird and counterintuitive that a heavily armoured unit dodges arrows with 70% chances in a castle.

This. This is the biggest reason why HI's parry is a bad idea with the current proposal. The fix to lower all baseline defenses by 10%, remove the negative melee parry and increase the ranged parry to 30% seems good in my eyes if we want to go with the "give parry to HI" idea. After some thinking I can kinda get behind the reasoning for the parry, since is IS called "parry" and not dodge. It doesn't make sense for all ranged attacks (most notably fireballs and what not, but those have a flat 70% chance to hit anyway, so the parry doesn't affect them).

That does not mean I am fully on board with adding parry to mainline. I'm simply not completely againast it either.

[Tez]

I don't understand, will this be something that will be added to the mainline, like ectra faction or as a variant of the default era ?
Or are these changes that affect directly the default era ?
Because In that case I think it will be a bad idea, because it will also affect all the campaigns.
If it's just a different era selectable in the game I thinks it's perfrctly ok, it will add more variety to the game and people cam chose if to use the defaut era or the sub-factions variant.

[Hejnewar]

I cause great confusion cuz Im too lazy to split stuff into parts and im proud of myself for doing that. The answer is both yes and yes.

[DuncanDill]

I wont respond to the same point 5 times since people use the same argumesnt I already responed to - read. Thats just waste of time.

Hej, the whole reason you've got the same point alot of times is because the community doesn't like it. It doesn't matter how much you explain it, we still don't want the change.

[Anekron]

I use it for three reasons, it preserves the most (as I can actually contain changes within single unit) (especially since half people here dont want to change resistances cuz thats not thematic), access itself to it simplifies my wrok and limits changes because I can just use different approach and finally imo escpecially negative ranged and positive melee parry does create more interesting matchups.

I totally get the reasoning behind it. And I'm very aware that it's always easier to shoot down proposals than to actually make your own. That being said, I still absolutely think the inclusion of parry (and, to a lesser extent, accuracy) really detracts from the game's simplicity.

The only problem with this I have is that I stream and as I mentioned earlier I get first time players just due to the fact that they want to be on stream or something. Yes they do struggle and lose but they dont really have a trobule understanding units and their weaknesses. Maybe its just magic of MP and if someone logs in they passed some kind of check that instantly grents them knowledge but I doubt. So thats my experience.

There's no need to be sarcastic, we both know that Wesnoth is and should be easy to learn, hard to master. What I've tried to convey is that in my experience, noobs have their hands full already just trying to keep track off the terrain defence, the resistances and special abilities. Many people play Rebels at first to lessen the impact of day and night cycle, many others ignore traits or can't really deal with the more "advanced" mechanics such as poison. It's a learning curve, and the addition of parry and accuracy makes it much steeper while being extremely confusing.

To illustrate, let's just focus on a simple question "how easy it is for my unit to hit an enemy unit?"

In 1.16, it's quite simple. Your chance to hit is equal to 100 minus the enemy's terrain defence, unless you have either marksman or magical / the unit has steadfast.

In 1.18, your Elvish Champion gets +10 %, which kinda works like marksman, but not really. It's worse when the chance to hit is really really low, but better when it's high.

In 1.20, it would a total mess. You get parry, which is kinda like steadfast, but not really. In fact, it works very differently and shows in a different part of the UI entirely (much like acc vs marksman / magical). You can also have a separate melee and ranged parry, further confusing things up.

If Wesnoth had acc / parry from the start, I would be against adding steadfast, marksman and magical. Since Wesnoth has these, I'm against adding acc / parry.

I really mean this in good faith btw. I know I'm now focused on a point of contention, but I really really like some of the changes, especially the Ghoul rework and Thunderer discount.

[Refumee]

Before I state my opinion on that.

I need to say, that I really appreciate how much work and effort Hej spends to improve wesnoth and his MP side of this game.

We also need to consider how much that impacts SP.
My first kind of thought was Liberty where we have to fight off a bunch of HI. That will be hard in the future.

I tested nothing and have no clue about all of this things.

Anyway, as I remember right Hej, stated pre 1.18 that no one cared for the upcoming changes. I count that as a complain and acknowledge that. I didn't care, sorry .
Now, people care and Hej is still unsatisfied. That is that I don't understand. We can discuss about the ongoing changes and now he doesn't want to? Seems weird to me.

So we should engage, but stating criticism isn't allowed?
To be honest, then I see no point in engaging then.

Just my opinion on this topic. Maybe I misinterpreted something wrong. I'm open for corrections.

[Roge_Tebnelok]

On Ghoul - they are essentially skeletons in wet skin, which protects them from mysticism and fire and contains poison, but it does not make them more resistant to bone breaking, the remains of muscle simply protect their bones from vulnerability. So their half of the skeletal and human resistance, as it is now, makes the most sense.
On Elf Archer - they already have an advantage over humans in toughness, perhaps because they are elves, their bodies do not require such heavy armor as humans use, and therefore they train more in the use of weapons than in wearing actually heavy leather. This and their vulnerability to iron is part of their culture. Why, by the way, do units with iron weapons not have damage bonuses against elves? Increasing resistance to slashing damage without piercing and impact does not make sense, because in essence it is something in between the two types. Archers are already the strongest fighters of the first level, and making them even more durable means completely breaking the balance in favor of the elves. That's a bad idea.
On Thunderers - Flavorwise, making them cheaper doesn't make sense because thundersticks are difficult to produce, although the way they actually work encourages improvement. Maybe instead of making them cheaper, make them stronger, like 20-21 damage from a shot, and make fighters, scouts and guards cheaper?
On Mages - they are even rarer than Horsemen, and these are the strongest human units; here, as with the Thunderers, rather than make them cheaper, buff their melee attack to like 5x2 and make Horsmen cheaper.
On Heavy Infantry - I actually practiced wearing heavy armor and fighting with big shield, and I can tell that it helps in melee as well as against archers. And armor and shield really helps against impact weapons, so maybe instead of parry, maybe change their physical resistances to 40/40/20, so that the Ghost and Dwarvish Lord were happier? I agree on making them cheaper, but not faster or dodgier, though their armor isn't that heavy, it restricts movement non the less, and their current state is in their name and flavor.
On Fencer - thats the whole point that they don't wear any armor, so it's natural that their human bodies are vulnerable to physical damage. I find it strange that all human units without armor are vulnerable to slashing damage more than to piercing or impact, the second is the most dangerous type in terms of injuries, slashing brings more pain for sure, but not that much more to make the difference. Also, are their scarfs enchanted to provide them warmth, protecting them from cold damage of DA and Augur lines?
On Orcish Slurbow - I would agree on their nerf only if all their damage will be nerfed as well, like to 7x3 in melee, so that the Strong trait make sense, and 10x3 on piercing ranged, and also nerf Crossbowman's XP to Level 3 to 48 and damage to 5x3, 8x3 and 9x2 respectively, and buff Archer's melee damage to 4x2, or even 5x2, though that way they will outmatch human archers completely, so 4x2 is better.
On Dunefolk - I don't really care.

[lhybrideur]

Only responding to the new rebel mage.

It looks nice. We will finally not have a unit that is in two different factions anymore.
LVL1 seems fine.
I am not found of the skirmisher LVL2. What about ambush instead. Feels more elvish. Or give him directly teleport at lvl2.
For the lvl3, either just improve the lvl2 or add ambush/teleport depending on which one is missing.
For the second LVL3, I fell like having a vanilla mage like the archmage would be fine.

I worked on the matter too and, although my results are a bit different than yours and probably not balanced, I also went for a vanilla mage on one of the branch.

[Hejnewar]

Anekron

Well my goal is to make the best balance I can. If you show that the balance or engagement is worse with either arguments or in some other way I will study it, learn from it and repeat it but better. People here keep demanding changes for either UI or lore reasons but no solutions (with exception of Dalas who actually tries to provide solutions).

In that case would ability be better? Actually we already have ability in mainline that does the same thing. So I could use that with different magnitude. I maybeeee could use absorb as well instead however that ability is wague and it doesnt state the magnitude (kinda unfair that no one complains about them but when I do something people suddenly freakout).

Archers are already the strongest fighters of the first level, and making them even more durable means completely breaking the balance in favor of the elves. That's a bad idea.

I dont agree here, if archer was the best it would have been used as main unit instead of figher who would be used in matchups in which pierce damage is bad. But thats not the case and figher is main unit anywhere.

On Thunderers

I very much get the point, the problem with it is that 20 damage thuderer suddenly two shots even 40 hp units and units most of the time have less hp. Maybe it would be balanced but I just dont think it would feel fun.

On Mages - they are even rarer than Horsemen, and these are the strongest human units; here, as with the Thunderers, rather than make them cheaper, buff their melee attack to like 5x2 and make Horsmen cheaper.

It would require quiet big changes for horseman and i already deal with enough lore problems. If you can convince others, maybe but still likely no.

maybe change their physical resistances to 40/40/20

That would make it even worse against dwarf since they already rely on impact damage to deal with it.

Also, are their scarfs enchanted to provide them warmth, protecting them from cold damage of DA and Augur lines?

Yes. It also was that they have expensive clothes that can stop some impact damage.

On Orcish Slurbow

This has one very good point, buffing level 1 would increase the xp requirement for leveling. I think that might be important for others to know.

Or give him directly teleport at lvl2. / I am not found of the skirmisher LVL2.

Teleport would be OP. I like skirmisher as I envisioned it as sorta mage that chases enemies a lot.

I worked on the matter too and, although my results are a bit different than yours and probably not balanced, I also went for a vanilla mage on one of the branch.

I will try to look at it but no idea when.

Anyway, as I remember right Hej, stated pre 1.18 that no one cared for the upcoming changes. I count that as a complain and acknowledge that. I didn't care, sorry .
Now, people care and Hej is still unsatisfied. That is that I don't understand. We can discuss about the ongoing changes and now he doesn't want to? Seems weird to me.

So we should engage, but stating criticism isn't allowed?
To be honest, then I see no point in engaging then.

Just my opinion on this topic. Maybe I misinterpreted something wrong. I'm open for corrections.

Honestly slandering me because you missunderstood doesnt really make you look good. It might be even worse, it might be for the public. I dont even know what statement you are refering to. The one about playing? Well Im still unsatisfied that people dont play. The one about responding? Why should I respond to the same argument that already was made and has my response? You can convince me with arguments not with number of them.

It doesn't matter how much you explain it, we still don't want the change.

If you cant convince me you get the change. It doesnt matter how much you demand it. Any kind of numbers preasure doesnt work no me at all anymore. How can I know that you arent just coordinated to [...] with me after last events? :sip: You either have arguments or you dont, numbers dont do anything. But honestly Im satisfied with interactions with anyone but 3 people so far. So thank you for keeping it civil and nice. However it seems that some people start to try and preasure with preasure and not arguments.

[Kapiork]

I definitely agree with Hej that Teleport on lvl 2 Mage would've been too strong. I also think gold is the least lore-breaking stat you can modify (unless it gets extreme enough that a mage is the base 14g unit while a regular-if-skilled guy with a sword costs 20+ gold). I disagree with Roge that we should buff Mages and scale down Horsemen instead of simply making Mages cheaper. Horsemen's Charge makes them a bit tough to scale down and they're scary enough as-is with their high damage per hex, even if I don't think they're used that much. 19 is still pretty costly, so if the "feel" is so important, then I don't think it would be ruined by such a change.

I maybeeee could use absorb as well instead however that ability is wague and it doesnt state the magnitude (kinda unfair that no one complains about them but when I do something people suddenly freakout).

I think it's because Absorb (and Accuracy +10 on Elvish Champ for that matter) is on a level 3 unit, so you're less likely to run into it. Meanwhile putting it on a level 1 recruitable like HI makes it much more likely to pop up and thus complicates the "base experience". At least that's how I see it.

Worth noting that I'm not good at balancing at all. That's why I only chime in when it comes to what "feels right".

[ForestDragon]

Honestly slandering me because you missunderstood doesnt really make you look good. It might be even worse, it might be for the public. I dont even know what statement you are refering to. The one about playing? Well Im still unsatisfied that people dont play. The one about responding? Why should I respond to the same argument that already was made and has my response? You can convince me with arguments not with number of them.

If you cant convince me you get the change. It doesnt matter how much you demand it. Any kind of numbers preasure doesnt work no me at all anymore. How can I know that you arent just coordinated to [...] with me after last events? :sip: You either have arguments or you dont, numbers dont do anything. But honestly Im satisfied with interactions with anyone but 3 people so far. So thank you for keeping it civil and nice. However it seems that some people start to try and preasure with preasure and not arguments.

Remember who the game is made for - the players. They will be the ones playing the game. If too many players are unhappy with the changes, then it is a clear indicator that the changes are not what the playerbase wants or needs.

If the end result of multiple stable versions' changes is alienating large chunks of the playerbase, then what is the point of all the effort?

It is a developer's responsibility to convince the community that his ideas are worth implementing, rather than the community's responsibility to convince him to stop.

It seems to me like when people stay silent with their opinions, you treat is as acceptance of your ideas. When people make their voice heard, you assume people are just convinced to criticize you by someone else. Do you assume your ideas are so infallible that only people convinced by someone else would criticize them?

[Hejnewar]

When people make their voice heard, you assume people are just convinced to criticize you by someone else. Do you assume your ideas are so infallible that only people convinced by someone else would criticize them?

No but I also assume that I can convince people that my ideas are good if they are silent on equal level and I also do get feedback from other sources (that I already talked about and asked to check) other than here so I dont threat everyone here as entirety of the community because thats simply not true.

[Mirion147]

Hey Hej.
I think the idea of putting this out as an add on is a great idea. Fully support it! I feel like you listened to us from some previous issues, but you're still going your own way. That's respectable. Nicely done. (No attitude, this is completely genuine)

I would like to offer 2 suggestions, take them or leave them.

1. I suggest a schedule (Not a hard schedule, but general guideline) i.e. every 3 months you can drop a balance patch that takes player feedback into account. This will allow players time to play, give feedback, and for you to work on updates (this is an example, if you do this obviously you would pick a time frame that works for you)

2. For HI, rather than parry which feels odd to many, I suggest a block ability. One that allows the HI to, if hit, have a percentage chance to only take 50% (or whichever number you desire) damage. I'm not really seeing why it needs to be different for ranged and melee, I think it would be much easier to understand if it was all the same level (either for a block ability, or parry)

Thanks for hearing me out. Keep up the good work. I'm curious about how the mage would work and I'll be keeping an eye on it, but I don't have anything to say about it now other than I agree with anekron on pretty much all his points about it.

[Hejnewar]

1. I suggest a schedule (Not a hard schedule, but general guideline) i.e. every 3 months you can drop a balance patch that takes player feedback into account. This will allow players time to play, give feedback, and for you to work on updates (this is an example, if you do this obviously you would pick a time frame that works for you)

Yep sure. It would probably be kinda random tho cuz yeah I usually have time somewhat randomly. Edit: Actually now I think about it I wonder if we are thinkig about the same thing... But anyway IMO balance paches can bring some interest while nothing else happens I guess.

2. For HI, rather than parry which feels odd to many, I suggest a block ability. One that allows the HI to, if hit, have a percentage chance to only take 50% (or whichever number you desire) damage. I'm not really seeing why it needs to be different for ranged and melee, I think it would be much easier to understand if it was all the same level (either for a block ability, or parry)

Yep thats also possible. I would rather see just flat % ranged damage reduction than chance for it but idea would be similar. That can be done.

I'm curious about how the mage

Its very much work in progress, especially levels so if you have any ideas feel free to share.

[Mirion147]

I'm not at a point where I feel like I can give confident feedback, but when I have something substantial I'll share it.

If we're just spitballing though, then I would rather shy away from a mage and go more for object based power.
Archaicist. Uses imbued weapons to deal arcane/ cold damage. No physical damage type. Melee arcane, ranged cold.
If you want to give it an ability that is thematic with quickcaster, you could allow them to, on a hit, gain an additional strike the first time (melee only) but keep the damage low and potentially (for flavor and added lore) only allow this ability on defense.

Like I said, I haven't looked into what you've proposed enough to give you good feedback, but if I come up with something I'll drop it by