What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

[matto]

HOW WESNOTH WORKS TO ME !!!

FANTASY, ARCANE & RESISTANCES

Arcane isn't simply a Resistance to me is the backbone of this Fantasy. It represents a SUPERNATURAL(Elves or Trolls) and/or UNNATURAL Creature (Undeads), which implies having NATURAL Beings (Animals/Humans/Orcs), each of this can be either more/less Magical or Pure Magical(MudClawers), which influence the Magical Potential or Talent of the various Magical Forces [Not the only factor, exemple: Delfador's Special Soul].

Race and Description (Dwarves), Training (Red Mage) or "Born/Connected" to a Magical Force (Elves) which shapes their Resistances, giving a Weakness (Undead to Arcane) or an "Immunity" (Drakes to Fire).

From Elvish Marksman: "Elves have an intimate connection to the world of faerie, which innately imbues them with highly acute senses and incredibly keen vision"

Two Magical Forces: MUNDANE MAGIC & ARCANE MAGIC

From Elvish Shyde: "Shydes are masters of the mundane, guided by a power which is little understood"

From Elvish Sorceress: "Elven magic most commonly diverges among two paths — manipulation of the natural, or corporeal world, and divination into the arcane plane"

Mundane Magic refers to the Five Types of Material Damage a spellcaster can conjure and manipulate [IMPACT, BLADE, PIERCE, FIRE & COLD] in the case of Elvish Druid line are Ensnare(Impact) and Thorns(Pierce), meanwhile "Arcane" Magic is the control over the "manifestation" of an Ethereal Being Power/Worlds [attack naming delineate the Source (Elves = Faeries World = Faerie Fire)], such as in Necromancer control over a Soul/Spirit.

Magic/Abstract Worlds: - Fae, Light, Dark

From Shadow Lord:"Those that can master that balance become Shadow Lords, fully existing neither in the world of light nor the world of darkness"

This one is hard... are there more "Worlds"/Domains, like for Dragon's Fire or Dwarves Runic Magic, is it exclusive to "Arcane" Magic? as in exclusive to Arcane Damage Type, i think this is where we can let the structure shift, be unknown to ourselves.
Otherwise we will limit Dragon's Fire to mere MUNDANE MAGIC [only Fire Dmg Type] or ARCANE MAGIC [only Arcane Dmg Type].
This shouldn't limit how cool you can do things, you can make plot twist in your story by simply changing or giving a normal unit a different damage type.

Make Unique Unit, like once in 1000 years type of thing (etc..), such as Delfador Pure Soul or to quote one of my favorite UMC The White Troll.

What about MUNDANE CREATURES? Another meaning for mundane

From what i gather from the Internet is basically as saying there is NO MAGIC in that Creature, or Ordinary like in our world, OR in our case can't use Arcane Magic, which i find wrong IF it is applied to one of the Races we have now. Since people once revolted about taking the direction of "This Race/Creatures can't become Liches", i believe this is a similar case.

If people use Mundane as "synonym" of Natural i don't mind. Makes talking about it confusing but ok

I believe the community has to come to an agreement on what they think Arcane & Magic is, despite destabilizing how Wesnoth takes on Lore freedom. Are my Views law? No. Does i try to make it valid? Yes. HF looking at my changes


ARCANE CHANGES - [1.16 to 1.18]

ANIMALS/MONSTERS

Scorpions: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%

Shadow Jump Spider: [1.18] Keep +10%

Falcons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Ravens: [1.18] Keep +10%

Roc: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Cave Bear: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Horned Scarab: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Woodland Boar: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Bay/Great Horse: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Giant Rat: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Giant Spider: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Wyvern: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Ogres: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

CuttleFish: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Tentacle of the Deep: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Water Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Great SeaHorse: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Caribe: [1.18] Keep 0%
Sea Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Swamp Lizard: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Rock Scorpion: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Ants: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Icemonax: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Dark/Black/White Horse: [1.18] Keep 0%
Wolf: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Yeti: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Skeletal Dragon: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Drake Armageddon: [1.18] Keep -10% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Fire Dragon: [1.18] Keep -10% or [1.16] Revert -30%

Frost Stoat: [1.18] Keep -20%

Sand Scorpion: [1.18] -50%

ELEMENTALS/MECHANICAL

Jinn: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Fire Guardian/Wraith: [1.18] Keep -10% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Mudclawers: [1.18-1.16] Keep -50%

Boats: [1.18-1.16] Keep +60%

KNALGA

Dwarves: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

Gryphons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

REBELS

Elves: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

Woses: [1.18] Keep -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%

DRAKES

Saurian: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Drake: [1.18] Keep -10% or [1.16] Revert -30%

LOYALIST

Humans: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Mermen: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

NORTHERNERS

Orcs: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Goblins: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Nagas: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Trolls: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

UNDEADS

Vampire Bat: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Ghosts: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%
Ghouls: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Skeletons: [1.18] Keep -20% or [1.16] Revert -50%

ARCANE MAGES

Ancient Lich: [1.18] Keep -20% or [1.16] Revert -50%
Lich: [1.18] Keep -20% or [1.16] Revert -40%

Necromancer: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Shadow Mage: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

White Mage: [1.18] Keep +30% or [1.16] Revert +40%
Mage of Light: [1.18] Keep +50% or [1.16] Revert +60%
Paladin: [1.18] Keep +30% or [1.16] Revert +60%

Mermaid Priestess: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%
Mermaid Diviner: [1.18-1.16] Keep +40%

Elvish Sorceress: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Elvish Enchantress: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Elvish Sylph: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%

_______________________________________________________

ARCANE RE-REWORK - by matto

___________________________________________

Text inside two Orange lines are proposed changes and reverts to [1.16]

___________________________________________

I wanted to give an Explanation to the changes, but my response is getting too delayed, so i will elaborate after some community discussions!

I really look forward to seeing how people perceive them, either by Lore or Gameplay

ANIMALS/MONSTERS

___________________________________________
Rock Scorpion: Change +10%
Wolf: Change +10%
Scorpion: Change +10%
Swamp Lizard: Change +10%
Ravens: Change 0%
CuttleFish: Change 0%
Icemonax: Change -10%
Frost Stoat: Change -10%
Skeletal Dragon: Change -20% or -10%
Drake Armageddon: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Fire Dragon: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Sand Scorpion: [1.18] -50% (All Resistances same as MudClawer bc of description, needs some twicks)
___________________________________________

Shadow Jump Spider: [1.18] Keep +10%
Falcons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Roc: [1.18] Keep +10%
Cave Bear: [1.18] Keep +10%
Horned Scarab: [1.18] Keep +10%
Woodland Boar: [1.18] Keep +10%
Bay/Great Horse: [1.18] Keep +10%
Giant Rat: [1.18] Keep +10%
Giant Spider: [1.18] Keep +10%
Wyvern: [1.18] Keep +10%
Ogres: [1.18] Keep +10%

Tentacle of the Deep: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Water Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Great SeaHorse: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Caribe: [1.18] Keep 0%
Sea Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Ants: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Dark/Black/White Horse: [1.18] Keep 0%
Yeti: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

ELEMENTALS/MECHANICAL

___________________________________________
Fire Guardian/Wraith: [1.16] Revert -30%
Mudclawers: Change -40% or [1.18-1.16] Keep -50%
___________________________________________

Jinn: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Boats: [1.18-1.16] Keep +60%

KNALGA

Dwarves: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

Gryphons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

REBELS

___________________________________________
Woses: [1.16] Revert -30%
___________________________________________

Elves: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

DRAKES

___________________________________________
Augur: [1.18] Keep +10%
Skirmisher: [1.16] Revert +20%
Drakes: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%
___________________________________________

LOYALIST

___________________________________________
Humans: [1.16] Revert +20%
___________________________________________

Mermen: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

NORTHERNERS

___________________________________________
Goblins: Change +10% or [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
___________________________________________

Orcs: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Nagas: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Trolls: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

UNDEADS

___________________________________________
Vampire Bat: Change [lvl0-1] +10% and [lvl2] +20% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Ghouls: Change [lvl1] +10% [lvl2] +20% [lvl3] +30%
Skeletons: Change [lvl1-2] -40% [lvl3] -30% or [1.16] Revert -50%
___________________________________________

Ghosts: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

ARCANE MAGES

___________________________________________
Ancient Lich: Change -40% or [1.16] Revert -50%
Lich: [1.16] Revert -40%
Necromancer: [1.16] Revert +20%
Shadow Mage: [1.18] Keep +10% (or for the Meme +5% XD)
White Mage: [1.18] Keep +30%
Mage of Light: [1.18] Keep +50%
Paladin: Change +40%
___________________________________________

Mermaid Priestess: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%
Mermaid Diviner: [1.18-1.16] Keep +40%

Elvish Sorceress: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Elvish Enchantress: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Elvish Sylph: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%

[KameRamen]

I salute your contribution of ideas. I will then write to you with my opinion. First, I am generally neutral about the rework suggestions regarding monsters. They are relatively unimportant to me and I do not see any issues with them from what I have just read.

As for the other races ideas, I very much agree with the "revert" direction. However, there is a point that is very not good/concerned for me. Specifically, the undead arcane part:

Vampire Bat: Change [lvl0-1] +10% and [lvl2] +20% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Ghouls: Change [lvl1] +10% [lvl2] +20% [lvl3] +30%
Skeletons: Change [lvl1-2] -40% [lvl3] -30% or [1.16] Revert -50%

Giving bonus to resistance per level honestly makes no sense. Rather, I think this will have negative effects for both lore/gameplay. My concern is particularly the tactical aspect. As I believe someone already pointed out earlier, any unit with higher level (increased HP and attacks) is a threat to the attacker by itself. Therefore, if the resistance changes strongly per level, it will make that unit more difficult to defeat for no apparent reason, thus worsening the gameplay.

For this reason, I fully support reverting to 1.16 stats for the undead arcane, especially for the Skeletons.

[Refumee]

I love to study and observe history. How everything it developed and executed with reasons.
Conquest, looking for a better tomorrow, greed and more.

So I like the lore touch you are giving to arcane. I always felt that wesnoth needs a bit of structure or maybe background lore like in other fantasy settings.

I also like you implication of using description of ingame mainline units from wesnoth. That's a good base.
Lately I posted in a memes thread a quote from Dacyn that I encountered in the main menu while playing wesnoth "Arcane attacks are very powerful against undead".
Why would Dacyn say something like that? With the current set up, Wesnoth could just use fire. It is easier accessible by the public and doesn't require any predisposition or skills by any user.

Anyway to bring this to a point.
I dont like the changes to the undead and I don't like that they are getting stronger with each lvl up. Are they getting more natural while leveling? Shouldn't that be the other way around?
I am not suggesting making them worse with each level.
I am only questioning why they are getting stronger.
I still suggest reverting them to -50%.
I am open for discussion to give the lich a different arcane resist.

For the other races I do support your ideas. There should be a reason why someone has a higher resistance.
Silver mages train to be anti mages, so they are having 50% resist to fire and cold.
That is also quite cool lorewise.

I also wonder why a Sand Scorpion has worse arcane resist than a skeleton?

[ChaosRider]

Just to inform you that there is on Wesnoth v1.18 server an addon called MoreDamageTypes which gives you over 10 dmg types more. Each recruited unit and already existing one has a percent chance to change own weapon dmg type for a new one!

Once we talk about dmg types during adding units to WOTG (over 4500 units and 150 factions - yupi!) Ive seen that some of them had dmg type called secret. Ive changed it for arcane to keep everything based on mainline 6 dmg types. What it supposed to be this secret dmg type I dont know.

[holypaladin]

HOW WESNOTH WORKS TO ME !!!

FANTASY, ARCANE & RESISTANCES

Arcane isn't simply a Resistance to me is the backbone of this Fantasy. It represents a SUPERNATURAL(Elves or Trolls) and/or UNNATURAL Creature (Undeads), which implies having NATURAL Beings (Animals/Humans/Orcs), each of this can be either more/less Magical or Pure Magical(MudClawers), which influence the Magical Potential or Talent of the various Magical Forces [Not the only factor, exemple: Delfador's Special Soul].

Race and Description (Dwarves), Training (Red Mage) or "Born/Connected" to a Magical Force (Elves) which shapes their Resistances, giving a Weakness (Undead to Arcane) or an "Immunity" (Drakes to Fire).

From Elvish Marksman: "Elves have an intimate connection to the world of faerie, which innately imbues them with highly acute senses and incredibly keen vision"

Two Magical Forces: MUNDANE MAGIC & ARCANE MAGIC

From Elvish Shyde: "Shydes are masters of the mundane, guided by a power which is little understood"

From Elvish Sorceress: "Elven magic most commonly diverges among two paths — manipulation of the natural, or corporeal world, and divination into the arcane plane"

Mundane Magic refers to the Five Types of Material Damage a spellcaster can conjure and manipulate [IMPACT, BLADE, PIERCE, FIRE & COLD] in the case of Elvish Druid line are Ensnare(Impact) and Thorns(Pierce), meanwhile "Arcane" Magic is the control over the "manifestation" of an Ethereal Being Power/Worlds [attack naming delineate the Source (Elves = Faeries World = Faerie Fire)], such as in Necromancer control over a Soul/Spirit.

Magic/Abstract Worlds: - Fae, Light, Dark

From Shadow Lord:"Those that can master that balance become Shadow Lords, fully existing neither in the world of light nor the world of darkness"

This one is hard... are there more "Worlds"/Domains, like for Dragon's Fire or Dwarves Runic Magic, is it exclusive to "Arcane" Magic? as in exclusive to Arcane Damage Type, i think this is where we can let the structure shift, be unknown to ourselves.
Otherwise we will limit Dragon's Fire to mere MUNDANE MAGIC [only Fire Dmg Type] or ARCANE MAGIC [only Arcane Dmg Type].
This shouldn't limit how cool you can do things, you can make plot twist in your story by simply changing or giving a normal unit a different damage type.

Make Unique Unit, like once in 1000 years type of thing (etc..), such as Delfador Pure Soul or to quote one of my favorite UMC The White Troll.

What about MUNDANE CREATURES? Another meaning for mundane

From what i gather from the Internet is basically as saying there is NO MAGIC in that Creature, or Ordinary like in our world, OR in our case can't use Arcane Magic, which i find wrong IF it is applied to one of the Races we have now. Since people once revolted about taking the direction of "This Race/Creatures can't become Liches", i believe this is a similar case.

If people use Mundane as "synonym" of Natural i don't mind. Makes talking about it confusing but ok

I believe the community has to come to an agreement on what they think Arcane & Magic is, despite destabilizing how Wesnoth takes on Lore freedom. Are my Views law? No. Does i try to make it valid? Yes. HF looking at my changes


ARCANE CHANGES - [1.16 to 1.18]

ANIMALS/MONSTERS

Scorpions: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%

Shadow Jump Spider: [1.18] Keep +10%

Falcons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Ravens: [1.18] Keep +10%

Roc: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Cave Bear: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Horned Scarab: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Woodland Boar: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Bay/Great Horse: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Giant Rat: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Giant Spider: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Wyvern: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Ogres: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

CuttleFish: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Tentacle of the Deep: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Water Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Great SeaHorse: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Caribe: [1.18] Keep 0%
Sea Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Swamp Lizard: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Rock Scorpion: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Ants: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Icemonax: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Dark/Black/White Horse: [1.18] Keep 0%
Wolf: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Yeti: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Skeletal Dragon: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Drake Armageddon: [1.18] Keep -10% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Fire Dragon: [1.18] Keep -10% or [1.16] Revert -30%

Frost Stoat: [1.18] Keep -20%

Sand Scorpion: [1.18] -50%

ELEMENTALS/MECHANICAL

Jinn: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Fire Guardian/Wraith: [1.18] Keep -10% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Mudclawers: [1.18-1.16] Keep -50%

Boats: [1.18-1.16] Keep +60%

KNALGA

Dwarves: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

Gryphons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

REBELS

Elves: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

Woses: [1.18] Keep -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%

DRAKES

Saurian: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Drake: [1.18] Keep -10% or [1.16] Revert -30%

LOYALIST

Humans: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Mermen: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

NORTHERNERS

Orcs: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Goblins: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Nagas: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Trolls: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

UNDEADS

Vampire Bat: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

Ghosts: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%
Ghouls: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Skeletons: [1.18] Keep -20% or [1.16] Revert -50%

ARCANE MAGES

Ancient Lich: [1.18] Keep -20% or [1.16] Revert -50%
Lich: [1.18] Keep -20% or [1.16] Revert -40%

Necromancer: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Shadow Mage: [1.18] Keep +10% or [1.16] Revert +20%

White Mage: [1.18] Keep +30% or [1.16] Revert +40%
Mage of Light: [1.18] Keep +50% or [1.16] Revert +60%
Paladin: [1.18] Keep +30% or [1.16] Revert +60%

Mermaid Priestess: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%
Mermaid Diviner: [1.18-1.16] Keep +40%

Elvish Sorceress: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Elvish Enchantress: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Elvish Sylph: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%

_______________________________________________________

ARCANE RE-REWORK - by matto

___________________________________________

Text inside two Orange lines are proposed changes and reverts to [1.16]

___________________________________________

I wanted to give an Explanation to the changes, but my response is getting too delayed, so i will elaborate after some community discussions!

I really look forward to seeing how people perceive them, either by Lore or Gameplay

ANIMALS/MONSTERS

___________________________________________
Rock Scorpion: Change +10%
Wolf: Change +10%
Scorpion: Change +10%
Swamp Lizard: Change +10%
Ravens: Change 0%
CuttleFish: Change 0%
Icemonax: Change -10%
Frost Stoat: Change -10%
Skeletal Dragon: Change -20% or -10%
Drake Armageddon: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Fire Dragon: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Sand Scorpion: [1.18] -50% (All Resistances same as MudClawer bc of description, needs some twicks)
___________________________________________

Shadow Jump Spider: [1.18] Keep +10%
Falcons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Roc: [1.18] Keep +10%
Cave Bear: [1.18] Keep +10%
Horned Scarab: [1.18] Keep +10%
Woodland Boar: [1.18] Keep +10%
Bay/Great Horse: [1.18] Keep +10%
Giant Rat: [1.18] Keep +10%
Giant Spider: [1.18] Keep +10%
Wyvern: [1.18] Keep +10%
Ogres: [1.18] Keep +10%

Tentacle of the Deep: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Water Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Great SeaHorse: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Caribe: [1.18] Keep 0%
Sea Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Ants: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Dark/Black/White Horse: [1.18] Keep 0%
Yeti: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

ELEMENTALS/MECHANICAL

___________________________________________
Fire Guardian/Wraith: [1.16] Revert -30%
Mudclawers: Change -40% or [1.18-1.16] Keep -50%
___________________________________________

Jinn: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Boats: [1.18-1.16] Keep +60%

KNALGA

Dwarves: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

Gryphons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

REBELS

___________________________________________
Woses: [1.16] Revert -30%
___________________________________________

Elves: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

DRAKES

___________________________________________
Augur: [1.18] Keep +10%
Skirmisher: [1.16] Revert +20%
Drakes: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%
___________________________________________

LOYALIST

___________________________________________
Humans: [1.16] Revert +20%
___________________________________________

Mermen: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

NORTHERNERS

___________________________________________
Goblins: Change +10% or [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
___________________________________________

Orcs: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Nagas: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Trolls: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

UNDEADS

___________________________________________
Vampire Bat: Change [lvl0-1] +10% and [lvl2] +20% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Ghouls: Change [lvl1] +10% [lvl2] +20% [lvl3] +30%
Skeletons: Change [lvl1-2] -40% [lvl3] -30% or [1.16] Revert -50%
___________________________________________

Ghosts: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

ARCANE MAGES

___________________________________________
Ancient Lich: Change -40% or [1.16] Revert -50%
Lich: [1.16] Revert -40%
Necromancer: [1.16] Revert +20%
Shadow Mage: [1.18] Keep +10% (or for the Meme +5% XD)
White Mage: [1.18] Keep +30%
Mage of Light: [1.18] Keep +50%
Paladin: Change +40%
___________________________________________

Mermaid Priestess: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%
Mermaid Diviner: [1.18-1.16] Keep +40%

Elvish Sorceress: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Elvish Enchantress: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Elvish Sylph: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%

Not so bad ideas but I would recommend undeads to generally stay vulnerable to arcane as it was in 1.16 (with this difference ghouls may be needed to get arcane vulnerable too). Weird would be to give goblins and orcs diffrent resistance (they're basically same race, could You explain why You want to differ them?), saurians may be on -10% or -20%, white mage should have more resistance on arcane than paladin but not very much, around 10%. As you mentioned supernatural creatures as woses, trolls, elves, drakes should have from -10% to -30/40% depending on race (I am thinking also about dragons from monster race).

[sine_nomine]

My thoughts on arcane:
- Arcane is strong against magical creatures (fantasy things that don't make sense in real life, e.g. skeletons require 'magic' to walk around without muscles) and weak against ordinary creatures (things that exist in real life, or similar). In gameplay this is represented by a big difference in resistance: -50% skeletons vs +20% humans.
- Arcane resistance is determined by a creature's species. Most major species have different arcane resistances to make them more distinct. Species does not change between lvl 1/2/3 (except lich), so arcane resistance should not change.
- Exception: units with a high "understanding" of arcane have higher resistance. White mage, paladin, mermaid diviner, elvish sylph, etc

About your suggestions:
- Saurians angurs and skirmishers should have the same arcane resistance. They are both saurians and neither knows arcane magic.
- Shadow mages should be the same as normal humans. Necromancers have +20%, so shadow mages should not be lower.
- The difference between regular humans & white mages should be the same as the difference between WM & MoL. 20% -> 40% -> 60%.
- In wesnoth, goblins and orcs are the same species. They are literally brothers. Therefore they should have the same arcane resistance.
- Creatures that exist in real life should have +20% resistance. Some animals may need to be changed from 1.16 to be more consistent.
- I don't know about wolf riders. Goblins should be 0% but wolves are mundane.
- Drakes: pick whatever works best for gameplay.
- Something extra to think about: Trolls. They are living stones and can regenerate, so they seem very 'magical'. Based on lore I would expect arcane resistance to be -20%. However, this would affect undead ghosts vs northerners.

I recommend:
1) Revert to 1.16, because 1.16 arcane was better
2) Change animals. There may be a need to determine whether some monsters are 'mundane' or 'magical'.
3) Pick one faction you want to change and explain why it should be changed

[Smiley_J]

I'm usually just a lurker on both Forums and Discord, but I try to keep up with things.

As much as I'd love a buff to Undead as a whole, there is no reason why they should be less vulnerable to the one thing that has always been their biggest weakness. It is part of their identity, a mainstay trait we've always had to get around. What cold and piercing is to Drakes, arcane and impact is to Undead. (Fire too, if we're going that path).

I say to keep the Undead faction as it was in 1.16.

[Roge_Tebnelok]

It represents a SUPERNATURAL(Elves or Trolls) and/or UNNATURAL Creature (Undeads), which implies having NATURAL Beings (Animals/Humans/Orcs), each of this can be either more/less Magical or Pure Magical(MudClawers), which influence the Magical Potential or Talent of the various Magical Forces [Not the only factor, exemple: Delfador's Special Soul].

Instead of "NATURALNESS", which depends on the point of view, what the arcane resistance represents could be better described as "OTHERWORLDLINESS". There are several realms that are home to magical creatures, namely faerie realm, where elves come from, the Land of Dead, where souls go after death, spirit world, which power liches wield, and the place of origin of Fire Guardians, where they are summoned from, that is, without worlds of Yechagoth, Zhangor and Ixthala demons from UtBS. Some other creatures have magical origins or source of life, namely dragons and drakes, woses, non-ghost undead, mudcrawlers, sand scuttlers and, perhaps, dwarves. Souls are apparently also not native to the world of bodies, and looks like that otherworldly essence is what influences magical capability/vulnerability. It can be assumed that magic itself has a separate realm, or is the matter between others, which trained souls can use, either by themselves, like most mages, or through some implements, like wielders of the Scepter of Fire. As for Delfador example, he was more lucky than special, his greatest feats of spellcasting were achieved with knowledge from the Book of Crelanu, and he got in the Land of Dead by accident, when orcs interfered in his meditation that would allow him to just commune with spirits, but if something goes wrong, one of the consequences could be teleportation of not only his soul but his body as well. He resists the corruption more because of the writing than because of his uniqueness among the human mages.

Race and Description (Dwarves), Training (Red Mage) or "Born/Connected" to a Magical Force (Elves) which shapes their Resistances, giving a Weakness (Undead to Arcane) or an "Immunity" (Drakes to Fire).

From Elvish Marksman: "Elves have an intimate connection to the world of faerie, which innately imbues them with highly acute senses and incredibly keen vision"

From Elvish Shyde: "Shydes are masters of the mundane, guided by a power which is little understood"

From Elvish Sorceress: "Elven magic most commonly diverges among two paths — manipulation of the natural, or corporeal world, and divination into the arcane plane"

Mundane Magic refers to the Five Types of Material Damage a spellcaster can conjure and manipulate [IMPACT, BLADE, PIERCE, FIRE & COLD] in the case of Elvish Druid line are Ensnare(Impact) and Thorns(Pierce), meanwhile "Arcane" Magic is the control over the "manifestation" of an Ethereal Being Power/Worlds [attack naming delineate the Source (Elves = Faeries World = Faerie Fire)], such as in Necromancer control over a Soul/Spirit.

From Shadow Lord:"Those that can master that balance become Shadow Lords, fully existing neither in the world of light nor the world of darkness"

This one is hard... are there more "Worlds"/Domains, like for Dragon's Fire or Dwarves Runic Magic, is it exclusive to "Arcane" Magic? as in exclusive to Arcane Damage Type, i think this is where we can let the structure shift, be unknown to ourselves.
Otherwise we will limit Dragon's Fire to mere MUNDANE MAGIC [only Fire Dmg Type] or ARCANE MAGIC [only Arcane Dmg Type].
This shouldn't limit how cool you can do things, you can make plot twist in your story by simply changing or giving a normal unit a different damage type.

Make Unique Unit, like once in 1000 years type of thing (etc..), such as Delfador Pure Soul or to quote one of my favorite UMC The White Troll.

The division comes down to the interaction of different forces. Faerie fire, souls, including spiritual light, and magic that gives life to the inanimate, that is, undead and elementals, including drakes and goblins, are alien and harmful to each other, the same goes for fire, which has different origins, in addition, it dangerous for souls outside bodies, even orcish, the only natural one, and living bodies prevent direct influence on the essence of the creature. Each magical source can have its own type of damage, but for simplicity they are combined into cold, fire and arcane. Physical effects are rare and tying non-arcane magic to "mundane" and and it's very separation doesn't sound right.

Rock Scorpion: Change +10%
Wolf: Change +10%
Scorpion: Change +10%
Swamp Lizard: Change +10%
Ravens: Change 0%
CuttleFish: Change 0%
Icemonax: Change -10%
Frost Stoat: Change -10%
Skeletal Dragon: Change -20% or -10%
Drake Armageddon: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Fire Dragon: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%
Sand Scorpion: [1.18] -50% (All Resistances same as MudClawer bc of description, needs some twicks)

Shadow Jump Spider: [1.18] Keep +10%
Falcons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Roc: [1.18] Keep +10%
Cave Bear: [1.18] Keep +10%
Horned Scarab: [1.18] Keep +10%
Woodland Boar: [1.18] Keep +10%
Bay/Great Horse: [1.18] Keep +10%
Giant Rat: [1.18] Keep +10%
Giant Spider: [1.18] Keep +10%
Wyvern: [1.18] Keep +10%
Ogres: [1.18] Keep +10%

Tentacle of the Deep: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Water Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Great SeaHorse: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Caribe: [1.18] Keep 0%
Sea Serpent: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Ants: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Dark/Black/White Horse: [1.18] Keep 0%
Yeti: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Animals and monsters are protected by their flesh and don't have magical origins which could make them vulnerable to arcane, and from gameplay perspective, 10% doesn't really protect from ghosts and other arcane attacks, 20% could do better as a standart for everyone not mentioned.

Ravens aren't that different from falcons, no reason for them to have lower arcane resistance.

Icemonax and Frost Stoat are the product of adaptation to cold environment, their cold damage isn't really unnatural, and they live mostly in the Northlands, where frozen claws and fangs aren't something outside of the row, so they can count as usual animals and monsters.

Skeletal Dragon is animated by magic and has no reason to be less vulnerable than any other undead creature, preferably -50%, but no less than -40%.

Fire Dragon and Armageddon Drake are kinda the same, creatures with both souls and magical source of life, though somewhat protected by the body, preferably -30%, but no less than -20%.

Sand Scuttler is a mix of of Giant Scorpion and Mudcrawler, it's reasonable for it to be more resistant to arcane, as it has some living tissue. -30%.

Ogres aren't that different to humans in terms of their origin and essence,so it doesn't make sense for their arcane resistance to be so different, it should be 20%.

Sea Serpent could possibly have unusual origin, with decreased arcane resistance, but it's unclear, water serpents are absolutely natural with regular 20%.

Fire ants to regular are kinda the same as sea serpent to water septent.

Tentacle of the Deep is a part of Cuttlefish, and can have the same 20% arcane resistance.

White horses aren't really different from Bay/Great, and should have the same 20% arcane resistance, Black could be somewhat different, either alien or posessed, that could explain why are they more vulnerable than regular.

Yeti is kinda hard to determine, they're unusual, but not necessarily magical, placing them in line with others doesn't seem wrong, arcane resistance could be increased to 20% but keeping at at 0% isn't bad either.

Fire Guardian/Wraith: [1.16] Revert -30%
Mudclawers: Change -40% or [1.18-1.16] Keep -50%

Jinn: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Boats: [1.18-1.16] Keep +60%

Fire Guardians/Wraiths are otherworldly creatures with no flesh protection and possible magical life source, -30% if they are just soulless aliens, preferably -50%, but no less than -40% if they have magical origins, no less, preferably more vulnerable than drakes.

Mudcrawlers are non-fleshy elementals, animated by magic, usually soulless, preferably -50%, but no less than -40%.

Jinns are spirits without apparent connection to ghosts, magical life source or flesh, preferably -20%, but no less than -10%.

Boats could be even more resistant to arcane, like 80%.

Dwarves: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

Gryphons: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%

Dwarves are tricky, as they are possibly created artificially with magic, yet they are pretty much alive and harder than humans. There were some dwarves with 20% base arcane resistance, but it was either brief or UMC. They could become more or less resistant or stay as they are now, each seems fine.
Gryphons are kinda in the same boat as Yeti, unusual but not necessarily magical, so their arcane resistance could be 20% or 0%, or the same as dwarvish, as all mounts use some of their riders resistances.

Woses: [1.16] Revert -30%

Elves: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

Woses don't have flesh per se, don't seem to be connected to faerie realm, or have magical source of life, so they could count as aliens, with the same arcane resistance with alien fire guardians or be as drakes, soul-magic mix, preferably -30%, but no less than -20%, preferably more vulnerable than elves.
Elves are from faerie realm with souls and flesh, and their resistance is somewhat different from other aliens, -10% is fine, but -20% could be better.

Augur: [1.18] Keep +10%
Skirmisher: [1.16] Revert +20%
Drakes: Change -20% or [1.16] Revert -30%

Skirmishers and Augurs are part of the same species with flesh and souls, their magis isn't really sirit-based, and doesn't seem to have any impact on their arcane resistance, so it should be the same on both fighters and mages, and saurians are the among the few non-magical native races other than humans, so thier arcane resistance should be 20%, 10% doesn't influence damage enough.

Drakes are already explained above, preferably -30%, but no less than -20%.

Humans: [1.16] Revert +20%

Mermen: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Humans are natives with souls in flesh, with standart arcane resistance. As with animals and saurians, it should be 20%.

Merfolk are tricky as dwarves, they have souls and bodies but are apparently more magical than humans, but this magic isn't their source of life, neither they seem to be aliens, though they could be, just a diffent kind, it makes sense for their arcane resistance to be 0%.

Goblins: Change +10% or [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Orcs: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

Nagas: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Trolls: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

Goblins are the same species as orcs, and it doesn't make sense for runts to have different resistance than their stronger siblings.

Orcs are kinda the same as merfolk, they are harder than humans, but their place of origin could be alien, but not as faerie realm of elves, so their arcane resistance could be 0% or higher.

Nagas also follwow that road, though they seem somewhat less magical than merfolk, their arcan resistance could be higher than 0%, which also works.

Trolls are more magical than alien, but they are also harder than other magical creatures, and their arcane vulnerbility could be the same as with elves, either -10% ot raised to -20%

Vampire Bat: Change [lvl0-1] +10% and [lvl2] +20% or [1.16] Revert +20%
Ghouls: Change [lvl1] +10% [lvl2] +20% [lvl3] +30%
Skeletons: Change [lvl1-2] -40% [lvl3] -30% or [1.16] Revert -50%

Ghosts: [1.18-1.16] Keep -10%

Bats are common beasts with no apparent connection to otherworldly stuff, so they don't have reasons to have different arcane resistance than other animals, let alone changing between levels, it should be 20% across the whole race and lines.

Ghouls are the only undead who has some "living" flesh which can protect their corrupted essence, and they could technically be still alive, as they are made from living people, and magic changes them, but doesn't replace the source of life, and this doesn't really change, so their arcane resistance shouldn't change between levels too, but consistently stay at 20%

Skeletons are animated by pure magic, changing arcane resistance doesn't make any sense from both lore and gameplay point of view, the older the bones and the more experienced the warrior, the more magic is required, and the higher the level, the harder it becomes to kill a unit, and reducing vulnerabilities on units that aren't focused on this type development is making it less killable with units specialized in using this type, which isn't good idea, at all. Standart non-soul undead arcane vulnerability should be preferably -50%, but no less than -40%, and it it shouldn't change across the levels.

Walking corpses also have only magical essence, but their flesh is dead and doesn't seem to protect them, so their arcane resistacne could be equal to skeleton.

Ghosts without bodies aren't magical by origin or source of live, but they could be more vulnerable to other arcane attacks, -10% is fine, but -20 could be better.

Ancient Lich: Change -40% or [1.16] Revert -50%
Lich: [1.16] Revert -40%
Necromancer: [1.16] Revert +20%
Shadow Mage: [1.18] Keep +10% (or for the Meme +5% XD)
White Mage: [1.18] Keep +30%
Mage of Light: [1.18] Keep +50%
Paladin: Change +40%

Mermaid Priestess: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%
Mermaid Diviner: [1.18-1.16] Keep +40%

Elvish Sorceress: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
Elvish Enchantress: [1.18-1.16] Keep +10%
Elvish Sylph: [1.18-1.16] Keep +20%

Both liches keep their soul, byt their body seems to be animated by magic as well, so their arcane vulnerability could be equal to undead standart, preferably -50%, but no less than -40%.

Necromancer is mostly wanna-be-lich, and altough some of them invest in spirit protection, it's rare, but before transformation they are regular humans with 20% arcane reisstance.

Shadow mages don't cross the border between life and death, only become more insane, light and darkness isn't exactly connected to soul, so their arcane resistance isn't really affected by anything and should stay 20% across all levels.

White mage, mage of light, mermaid priestess, diviner make their souls stronger, and so their arcane resistance grows, 30%/50% on human mages is fine, but 40%/60% could be better, 20%/40% on merfolk mages and paladin seems fine, with elves, if their vulnerability is increased, sorceress could keep her regular -20%, enchantress could get 0% with training, and sylph is even more alien than elf, so she could keep enchantress' 0%, reflection increased training to compensate for greater vulnerability, if not become more vulnerable, in which case enchatress should also stay vulnerable, as they all are masters of bringing out faerie realm stuff, though, as diviners, they should have stronger souls to ensure their safety. If Sylphs become or stay more vulnerable, shydes could be affected as well, elvish lords could also get some spirit protection, if sorceress lines get it.

10% and -10% aren't enough from gameplay perspective, so the base step should be 20%/-20%, which is more noticable and impactful. I'll explain why when asked for, in the meantime, I'm open to lore discussions.

[Tezereth]

Wow, there's a lot to go through here, so for now I'll just focus on a few things

Ghouls: Change [lvl1] +10% [lvl2] +20% [lvl3] +30%
Skeletons: Change [lvl1-2] -40% [lvl3] -30% or [1.16] Revert -50%

I just think arcane resistance shifting between levels makes little sense from a lore or gameplay perspective. High level skeletons are already more threatening due to having better stats, especially higher HP, so I don't see the point reducing the arcane weakness on lv3. Lore wise, even if the skeleton is stronger, it is still functionally (and magically) working the exact same way, there's nothing that should make arcane attacks "weaker" per se. They have no additional magical protections, and are animated by the same magic throughout all 3 of their levels.

A similar case can be done with the ghoul to a lesser degree I believe. They shouldn't get more resistant to arcane than they are at base. They may feed and grow more, but this only really affects their HP. There's more flesh to go through to kill the ghoul, but that "flesh" doesn't become harder to cut, burn or smite.

I would advocate for reverting their 1.16 arcane resistances.

___________________________________________
Goblins: Change +10% or [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%
___________________________________________

Orcs: [1.18-1.16] Keep 0%

This one also makes little sense to me, for a specific reason. Goblins are simply the same species as orcs, so I don't see where that +10% arcane resistance come from, given orcs don't possess it.

[bssarkar]

I really like that someone has taken their time to unify/consolidate the magic lore at one place, so thanks for that!

I have previously discussed about the Druid vs Sorceress path previously in Github issue 8583, linking here since it's related, which caused this change. I agree that we do need a stable and structured magic system in place instead of the random stuff going around in the descriptions of various elements, like Dragonfire and the Elves' innate abilities. In quite a few places some more lore thought would have been required, as gameplay and lore aren't as unrelated as we think it is, at least for consistent worldbuilding.

For balancing, I'd let the others do the criticism, since I'm not very good with it ( ). However, the arcane resistance changes and super-elves did directly affect my campaign, JoaFM, in which I resorted to creating my own Sorceress line and even replacing arcane with my own natural type (which is now available as part of WoL era alongside some more new damage types). I even moved to using WoL units as far as possible.

Best of luck!

[Yomar]

I agree with Tezereth, on pratically everything he said.
Also now campaigns are messed-up with the high level Elves that were boosted to insane levels in the current version of the game. (1.18).

[the_kaygan]

I think arcane should be reverted to 1.16-like stats, especially for undead. These stats worked for 15 years, and now they were changed for no clear reason, because of the whims of the MP Lead. And the fact that undead have been carelessly experimented on with 1.18 is no excuse to try more weird experiments on them (like the proposed idea of making arcane weakness decrease with level).

Also, Goblins should keep their 0% arcane. Their race description very clearly says "Goblins are, despite their appearance, born as siblings to the orcs and members of the same race", there is no reason for them to have different arcane from orcs.

[Rovik]

Well, in my opinion pretty much all changes implemented by Hejnewar in 1.18 were unneeded. Old resistances worked well for 15 years and after 1.18 changes all this balance was completely redesigned... I think that changes compared to 1.16 stats should be very rare and very small, and any big ones such as complete resistance redesign must be at least thoroughly tested in some tournaments like Ladder era ones, and be widely supported by the community as a whole, before being accepted as mainline.

[Elven]

My own opinion:

Arcane damage should be present as a weapon against undead, evil, "too much magic" units etc. Arcane should kill them, or severely harm them. Not make them unhappy or lower their stats like common weapons.

while i am not going to say much about corrent and past numbers, we should have a way to kill skeletons, ghosts etc... something more powerful than fire.

[vilka]

Looking at the 1.18 update of arcane, it completely lost what made it special. Now the undead can actually approach many units with impunity, which were specially created for exterminating them. As for the balance, the units with arcane are mostly from levels 2 and 3, which already makes them in not easily accessible from the very beginning so the higher damage to undead is justified.

In that same update, level 3 and 4 elves from the shaman branch got ridiculous buffs to their damage instead of being more specialized units.

The 1.18 changes to arcane were a big mistake, so I support fully reverting to how it was before.