The South Guard, Re-Revised - New Mainline Candidate

[Dalas120]

The South Guard, Re-Revised - New Mainline Candidate

A young knight, Deoran, is dispatched to the southern border town of Westin. Thrust quickly into a hapless conflict against marauding bandits, Deoran soon encounters darker forces at play. Rally the South Guard and defend your homes!

I'm pleased to release a new revision of TSG, building on Yumi's earlier work and aimed at mainline for the 1.20 release. This is intended as a tutorial campaign, replacing the existing tutorial.

⁃ (Partial) Story Reversions! The campaign focus has been shifted back towards Deoran, and "Into the Depths", "Pebbles in the Flood", and "The Tides of War" are once again available to play.

⁃ Streamlined Tutorial! The integrated tutorial has reduced text but improved UI, and scenarios are designed to gradually introduce units and concepts to new players.

⁃ Choose-able Companion! Choose between Gerrick, Hylas, and Mari to accompany Deoran on his journey. Each comes with their own new recruit type and (somewhat) different dialogue.

⁃ New Art, including fully-animated Deoran sprites based on the Cavalryman, and animated rain/snow effects (thanks inferno8!).

I'm still looking to improve some story and gamemplay elements, so please post your feedback! As this is a tutorial campaign, I especially want to ensure the difficulty is both hard enough to interest a new player (on Normal), but not so hard that a new player is unable to win.

Currently on both the 1.18 and 1.19 add-on servers.

deoran-rain.gif (956.49 KiB) Viewed 1305 times

[Sire]

Did a quick check through the files (map editor and scenarios) to get an idea of the campaign. I have not actually booted it up and played it myself yet though.

Love the idea of companions as it offers some form of replayability, and the tutorial/tips seem to be well done.

The initial story beats with the Bandit Brothers is interesting, although I personally feel the story gets weaker once the main antagonist actually gets involved (alongside the Elves). For some reason, it just really didn't captivate me, and the final brother also suffers from this.
-- Maybe it is just nostalgia talking, but I feel like the original story was more interesting overall compared to the re-revised version. Glancing through those texts again, I'm inclined to stick with the original storyline instead of the revised version, but that's just me.

[Dalas120]

I appreciate the feedback! Thanks for taking a look at the dialogue, and I'm glad you liked the intro and tips.

Sorry to hear that the second half of the campaign didn't inspire. I'd intended to keep the second half's plot fairly similar to the original - if you don't mind me asking, which elements specifically did you find weak?

[white_haired_uncle]

So, he lowers his shield and the horse dips its head so he can strike backhanded with the sword? And I really don't even see how the sword gets from resting position on the (unit's) right to the beginning of the strike which comes from more or less behind his head on the left.

[Dalas120]

I just copied the core Cavalryman animations, and stuck Deoran's head on top...

[holypaladin]

Just completed for the first time. Looks much better than Neemara's version, I like introducing new things. But. Characters talking about hotkeys were annoying as well as the movable arrows in the fortress for beginners. Plot wasn't bad itself, unfortunately he's (Deoran) still moved into another time while I believe he would be more uselful in oryginal time (would can do something while Eastern Invasion takes place). Campaign got cutted what I took as a bit frustrating, on the other hand we got some nice melodies.

[white_haired_uncle]

I just copied the core Cavalryman animations, and stuck Deoran's head on top...

Oh. I play at ludicrous speed, so I've guess I've never noticed it.

Still, if he keeps that up, you'll probably have to re-attach his head again pretty soon. You might want to like velcro it on or something.

[Sire]

I appreciate the feedback! Thanks for taking a look at the dialogue, and I'm glad you liked the intro and tips.

Sorry to hear that the second half of the campaign didn't inspire. I'd intended to keep the second half's plot fairly similar to the original - if you don't mind me asking, which elements specifically did you find weak?

Again, this is first impressions from glancing through the script. I have not yet played through the campaign proper. Apologies in advance if anything sounds harsh.

Deoran: Seems written well enough for a brand new junior commander. Nothing spectacular, but it gets the job done.
Mari: An interesting new character, and apparently she has been toned down from her original portrayal. It seems to work alright.
Gerrick: Seems like he shifted a bit from being a standard Infantry Commander to being more of a "county" Infantry Commander. Otherwise, he also seems okay.
Hylas: Standard holy man, works well.

Ethiliel:
-- Revised: Ethiliel seems to come off as a whiny teenager who is obsessed with her mentor Mebrin.
-- Classic: Ethiliel seems wiser and while she reveres her mentor, realizes how corrupt her master has become.

Urza Afalas
-- Revised: Afalas seems more like a coward and is basically just as "evil" as his brothers, despite his actions.
-- Classic: Afalas seems like an honorable outlaw who may have done terrible things. At least he is willing to repent for his actions.

Mebrin
-- Revised: Mebrin seems more like a victim complaining about his treatment at the hands of the human bothers.
-- Classic: Mebrin, while being mistreated, showcases his mastery by essentially brainwashing his captors for his own ends.

I suppose it is more of the new characteristics/writing style of these original characters that turn me off on the story. The spectacle of the finales seem to be present there (gameplay wise), but story/writing wise I think I prefer the original characters instead of the revised ones.

* * * * * * * * * *

Somewhat off-topic, but I find that the Eastern Invasion Revised to remain one of your best works. While I may have not played through the original, the revised version was fun and seemingly well-written, even though I have yet to properly complete my run (currently on the "river prison" mission).
-- The Deceiver's Gambit is a joy from a gameplay perspective, and the story was serviceable enough. While it doesn't fully capture the original Delfador's Memoirs, it was fun enough to be an enjoyable experience. (I still am of the belief it needs an extra scenario after the ford battle to expand on Eldred and have more Delfador/Deoran action. Also, there's still the whole Asheviere thing that needed to be addressed...)

[Dalas120]

Ok, I think I see where you're coming from. You're definitely right about Mebrin - I hadn't quite understood the essence of what made the pre-1.18 version appealing, but your description captures him perfectly. I've uploaded a new TSG version with some revised Mebrin dialogue - does that help improve his portrayal?

I tweaked a couple of Afalas's S06a lines as well; hopefully that helps slightly. Afalas's different portrayal was deliberate however - in the original, I felt that Ethiliel was very clearly wrong and Afalas was very clearly right (and way more "noble" than felt sensible for a brother of the previous 4 Urzas). In the revision, I'd hoped to try and balance them out a little bit. Did you not get that impression from the original? Or maybe my direction was good but I went too far?

I definitely didn't intend Ethilel to feel whiny or overly-obsessed (beyond what you'd expect for someone trying to rescue their last surviving friend). Did she come across as whiny/obsessed in the earlier scenarios or the later ones? Elf alliance path, bandit alliance path, or both?

(and very flattered you appreciate EI! I think its story benefited from having a simple plot and character roster; TSG and TDG are both complicated and dense, and they've definitely been harder to work with)

[Mechanical]

The new version does contain some improvements over the previous version, but I think it's still not worth it to completely remove the previous training.

In my opinion, Konrad and Delfador's dialogs from Deoran and Mari sound a bit odd, not very relevant, as does the whole training scene with the magic dummy somewhere far south on a random road.

I think the Southern Guard from version 1.16 is a good enough campaign to leave it as is. Trying to remake it into training is losing something anyway, I don't think it's necessary.

As I understand it, the purpose of the Southern Guard rework was to make better training and to introduce Asheviere. I think those goals can be accomplished by other methods without losing anything. For example, leave the Southern Guard alone and redo Training instead; make it so that if a player in Training chooses Lisar, he is trained by Asheviere. I think this would be a better representation of Asheviere and her side than the dubious sad story of an early marriage of convenience.

[ForestDragon]

The new version does contain some improvements over the previous version, but I think it's still not worth it to completely remove the previous training.

I agree. It is noticeably better than the older rework, but fundamentally I believe it is better for a tutorial to be more focused on being a tutorial, and standards campaigns to be standard campaigns. Trying to juggle tutorial and story elements at once often results in weakening both.

As I understand it, the purpose of the Southern Guard rework was to make better training and to introduce Asheviere. I think those goals can be accomplished by other methods without losing anything. For example, leave the Southern Guard alone and redo Training instead; make it so that if a player in Training chooses Lisar, he is trained by Asheviere. I think this would be a better representation of Asheviere and her side than the dubious sad story of an early marriage of convenience.

Good idea. Many of the TSG rework's tutorial mechanics (like the animated arrows) could be reused here.

[Konrad2]

S1
Turn 11 is 'morning'. Deoran mentions that now it's daytime (and time to attack) when you end your turn, which means a new player wouldn't have used this turn to attack. It would make more sense if he made this comment as the turn starts.

Ftr, I do think that making the tutorial a campaign / extending it beyond just 'dummies' + one enemy leader is a good call. -> that way 'advancing' units and recalling can be explained better and it's more likely to happen. But technically possible to implement in the normal tutorial. (Maybe advancing can be helped along by getting one experienced unit as reinforcement?) (Just to be clear, I do consider the campaign to be an improvement of the tutorial. I also think that the information is better presented and less dense than in the previous revision.)

S4 (Vale of Tears)
At the end Ethiliel says that there is one last Urza brother at large, but there was no prior dialogue where Deoran told her that two of the Urza brothers were already captured/dead.
Also, if the enemy leader recruited a unit on turn 16, that unit attacks them in stead of one of the skeletons. xD (Maybe add some code to make the recruited unit leave before you create a skeleton there)

Vengeance (secret choice)
Why do I start without any villages occupied?
Ethiliel starts poisoned and low health. Looks like she wasn't refreshed before storing her in Choice in the Fog.
Moving any unit of mine triggers a dialogue about Deoran returning. He doesn't return though, and his answers are missing from the dialogue.

Achievements
Defeat all enemy units in <i>Blight</i> -> Defeat all enemy units in <i>Choice in the Fog</i>

Personally, I liked the campaign. I did prefer the old Pebbles in the Flood more. Partially because Alfalas had a more compelling reason to stay behind (compared to only whatever officer you had around at the time), making this sacrifice story telling wise more impactful. Partially because I really didn't like that I'm not allowed to recruit. + not being told in advance that you should spend as much money as possible / the knowledge you'll be stuck with these units might really screw you over. I feel a longer cutscene might help here, where you debate whether to defend this place or not, and then the full enemy army arrives. That way Deoran sticks around for turn one, recruits/recalls for you 5 units of your choice, and then leaves for Westin.

Replays

Spoiler:

TSG-Born to the Banner replay 20240818-121209.gz

(34.43 KiB) Downloaded 23 times

TSG-Proven by the Sword replay 20240818-122100.gz

(35.38 KiB) Downloaded 23 times

TSG-Vale of Tears replay 20240818-124427.gz

(68.6 KiB) Downloaded 23 times

TSG-Choice in the Fog replay 20240818-124817.gz

(53.16 KiB) Downloaded 22 times

TSG-Into the Depths replay 20240818-125739.gz

(40.58 KiB) Downloaded 24 times

TSG-Vengeance replay 20240818-131108.gz

(61.45 KiB) Downloaded 23 times

TSG-Vale of Tears replay 20240818-132630.gz

I spied that I can get mages, so I went with Hylas this time

(69.16 KiB) Downloaded 24 times

TSG-Choice in the Fog replay 20240818-135031.gz

(62.35 KiB) Downloaded 23 times

TSG-Pebbles in the Flood replay 20240818-140933.gz

(61.07 KiB) Downloaded 22 times

TSG-The Tides of War replay 20240818-142407.gz

(87.59 KiB) Downloaded 23 times

Ftr, it does kinda suck that Maris recruits are THE bad choice, since you'll lack any way of dealing with skeletons.

[Dalas120]

the tutorial/tips seem to be well done.

Characters talking about hotkeys were annoying as well as the movable arrows in the fortress for beginners.

The new version does contain some improvements over the previous version, but I think it's still not worth it to completely remove the previous training.
As I understand it, the purpose of the Southern Guard rework was to make better training and to introduce Asheviere.

fundamentally I believe it is better for a tutorial to be more focused on being a tutorial, and standards campaigns to be standard campaigns. Trying to juggle tutorial and story elements at once often results in weakening both.

Ftr, I do think that making the tutorial a campaign / extending it beyond just 'dummies' + one enemy leader is a good call.
(Just to be clear, I do consider the campaign to be an improvement of the tutorial. I also think that the information is better presented and less dense than in the previous revision.)

I had two main goals regarding the tutorialization of TSG. First, I wanted to give new players a story hook into their initial few campaigns, and show them that Wesnoth is about both story and gameplay (Asheviere isn't in my TSG, but it's the same idea). The existing tutorial has minimal plot and introduces Delfador and Konrad/Li'sar with elves - but then we tell new players to try out TSG or AToTB, neither of which features Delfador/Konrad/Li'sar, nor playing as elves.

Second, I feel that the existing tutorial's 1.5 scenarios isn't nearly enough time to teach a new player the basics. Many important concepts aren't brought up at all, and many more are crammed into the top-left-text that's both difficult to read and very wordy. There's just no time for a new player to both learn and practice more than the absolute minimum.

Whether a new player's first experience should be TSG or Battle Training is something I'd very much like to get more opinions on, so please send your feedback as you play through the campaign!

Ethiliel:
-- Revised: Ethiliel seems to come off as a whiny teenager who is obsessed with her mentor Mebrin.
-- Classic: Ethiliel seems wiser and while she reveres her mentor, realizes how corrupt her master has become.

I've uploaded a new version with some changes to Ethiliel's dialogue in Vale of Tears. Let me know if this helps!

Spoiler:

[message]
speaker=Deoran
message= _ "...Ethiliel? I know you must be distraught to be the last of your town, but—"
[/message]
[message]
speaker,image=Ethiliel,portraits/ethiliel-mad.webp
message= _ "Distraught? <b><i>Distraught!?</i></b> I am vengeful! I am NOT the last of the valefolk — do not forget that our great sage Mebrin yet lives. I saw him dragged off in chains, taken south from here towards the Black Forest."
[/message]
{SAY_COMPANION
MESSAGE_MARI=_"I know it’s tough to accept, Ethiliel, but if your sage was taken into the Black Forest he’s probably not coming back out. You say it’s been months, and neither the Urza brothers nor their mysterious “master” seem the type to take prisoners — present company excluded."
MESSAGE_GERRICK=_"Aye, he were alive then, but is he now? The Black Forest, Ethiliel... an’ you say it’s been months? Neither th’ Urza brothers nor tha’ mysterious “master” seem th’ type t’ take prisoners — present company aside, o’ course."
MESSAGE_HYLAS=_"I fear the odds are not in your sage’s favor, Ethiliel. The Black Forest oft attracts evil, and neither the Urza brothers nor their mysterious “master” have shown an inclination for prisoners — present company excluded."
}
[message]
speaker=Ethiliel
message= _ "Do not speak ill of that which you do not understand, human. My teacher may be old, but I know him to be clever and resilient: a master of magic, both the light and the dark, and held in the highest esteeem by all from the Aethenwood. We must not abandon the last of my friends to an uncertain fate — shall you not help me find him and rescue him?"
[/message]
{DELAY 500}
[message]
speaker=Deoran
message= _ "I must agree with $companion_name about this sage Mebrin’s poor odds... And it truly would be a great risk for us to venture so far afield, isolated from Westin and in unknown territories."
[/message]
[message]
speaker=Deoran
message= _ "But despite the danger, my instinct is to help. One Urza brother yet remains. If we can find and catch him in the Black Forest, we could finally put an end to all this necromancy! And if Mebrin really does still live, then rescuing him is simply the right thing to do."
[/message]
[message]
speaker=Deoran
message= _ "Ethiliel, we’ll go."
[/message]

S1

S4 (Vale of Tears)

Vengeance (secret choice)

Achievements

Attached files

Oops! Should all be fixed now in the new version, thanks. Also I like that "Choice in the Fog" speedrun

Ftr, it does kinda suck that Maris recruits are THE bad choice, since you'll lack any way of dealing with skeletons.

It sounds bad, but I've played through the undead route on Hard with Mari and it wasn't as challenging as you might think. In Pebbles, Fencers' weakness is made up for by Mari's high personal survivability - she can usually eke out extra turns compared to Gerrick/Hylas.

Then in Tides of War, on top of the extra Pebbles bonuses you also get a bonus starting duelist, to help compensate for fencers being weaker (and cheaper). And finally, sacrificing Mari means both Gerrick and Hylas are present in Tides.

I did prefer the old Pebbles in the Flood more. Partially because Alfalas had a more compelling reason to stay behind (compared to only whatever officer you had around at the time), making this sacrifice story telling wise more impactful. Partially because I really didn't like that I'm not allowed to recruit. + not being told in advance that you should spend as much money as possible / the knowledge you'll be stuck with these units might really screw you over. I feel a longer cutscene might help here, where you debate whether to defend this place or not, and then the full enemy army arrives. That way Deoran sticks around for turn one, recruits/recalls for you 5 units of your choice, and then leaves for Westin.

I'll need to think about this some more; I appreciate you letting me know your thoughts here.

[octalot]

Spoiler:

message= _ "I must agree with $companion_name about this sage Mebrin’s poor odds... And it truly would be a great risk for us to venture so far afield, isolated from Westin and in unknown territories."

When $companion_name is limited to the set of three companions, it's better to have three copies of the string instead of using a variable. See #6158 and the discussion in https://github.com/hrubymar10/wesnoth-cs/pull/209 , which resulted in the similar change to UtBS being reverted; it's not just that some languages need gender-specific strings, it's that some languages apply declension to proper nouns.

[Kapiork]

Whether a new player's first experience should be TSG or Battle Training is something I'd very much like to get more opinions on, so please send your feedback as you play through the campaign!

Personally, I think it should be Battle Training (most basic of the basics) followed by a dedicated "advanced tutorial campaign" (which either abbreviates or completely omnits the basics, sort of like HttT, which introduces stuff like the Loyal trait), whether that should be revised South Guard or a completely new campaign. Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure I once heard a proposal of a short Li'sar campaign for that, however that would have the same issue of not allowing the use of elves that AToTB and partially TSG have and even the "familiar face - Li'sar" pro is not that great since we have no guarantee the player would choose her instead of Konrad and I'm not sure how a new player would feel about playing as the "gender choice" they didn't pick in the tutorial.

(this was going to be just a small aside put in brackets, but I ended up going on a tangent about a hypothetical campaign )

Do note that I haven't actually checked out either revision of TSG myself. I'm solely relying on what I can read on the forums (since I wasn't planning on posting anything).