Getting more users

[rmj]

In the development forum, the developers are talking about how to increase the number of users. The number of regular users has significantly dropped.
Several facets are discussed including the opening interface, terrain modification, and even the touch screen of android users. Perhaps changes here would be of use, but no one has brought up what I believe is what's most important for bringing in players: inclusion.
I refer to inclusion not in the current political/social usage, but as to the skilled versus the soso players. Generalizing, there are two types of players who come to a game. First is the "fumbler," who just starts playing and slowly picks things up. The second is one who seeks out info on how to play well and quickly becomes a strong player. There is a second difference among players: some make moves quickly, while others take time plan their moves. Wesnoth has catered solely to those who are well versed in tactics and strategy and take time to plan carefully before moving.
I am a fumbler. It probably took me a year before I realized that a lighthouse or a campfire enhanced a lawful unit's strength. Perhaps two years before I discovered that an oasis healed units. A respect for the utility of leadership took time as well. Tie this to my aversion to spending a lot of time evaluating all the possibilities of moves at every turn, and you find a player who has difficulties in many campaigns. I am certain, I am not alone.
The developers serve the skilled, not the fumblers. For them most strategy is second-nature; they don't have to analyze, it is ingrained. A campaign/scenario that is challenging to them is a killer for others.
It seems that over time the maintainers tend to make the older campaigns harder. Son of the Black Eye was quite difficult for me years ago, then one day when I tried it and did not get far. I have modified it so I could still enjoy one of the better campaign stories. Recently two scenarios were removed from The Hammer of Thursagan, and in my opinion the two that were fun or interesting. Troll Bridge had humor, Invaders a pleasant chaos. I can think of no reason to remove these except a desire to have fewer and lesser strong units in subsequent scenarios.
So to gain more users I suggest opening all mainline campaigns to the fumblers. Nightmare levels should be an add-on (which a player who likes nightmare would know of), or perhaps create a way to choose normal or nightmare campaigns. Perhaps two sets of scenarios for each campaign and the player can choose whichever.

Inclusion also demands that user made campaigns be considered for mainline. Do you not think that these creators have the wish to see their efforts acknowledged and respected. It is true that the majority do not reach that mark. But I have been playing for more than ten years and I have never seen an add-on campaign elevated to mainline. Rather new mainline campaigns just appear. Delfador's Memoirs and Secrets of the Ancients are inferior to a number of add-ons, except with regard to portraits and other artwork. In the add-ons you find some good stories and dialogue. That the developers would not see that "The Return of the Sea Hag" deserves full attention is sad. A Vision Blinded, The White Troll, Girl Undead and other add-ons deserve serious scrutiny.

What Battle for Wesnoth is about, and this is true for all games, is fun. Different people have different ways to have fun. Make all of Wesnoth available for all.


----rmj

[gnombat]

It seems that over time the maintainers tend to make the older campaigns harder. Son of the Black Eye was quite difficult for me years ago, then one day when I tried it and did not get far. I have modified it so I could still enjoy one of the better campaign stories.

For Son of the Black Eye, there is also this.

But I have been playing for more than ten years and I have never seen an add-on campaign elevated to mainline. Rather new mainline campaigns just appear. Delfador's Memoirs and Secrets of the Ancients are inferior to a number of add-ons, except with regard to portraits and other artwork.

Secrets of the Ancients was an add-on in Wesnoth 1.12 before being added to the mainline campaigns in Wesnoth 1.14. (I think Delfador's Memoirs was once an add-on too, but that was a long time ago.)

[Lord-Knightmare]

It seems that over time the maintainers tend to make the older campaigns harder. Son of the Black Eye was quite difficult for me years ago, then one day when I tried it and did not get far. I have modified it so I could still enjoy one of the better campaign stories.

For Son of the Black Eye, there is also this.

But I have been playing for more than ten years and I have never seen an add-on campaign elevated to mainline. Rather new mainline campaigns just appear. Delfador's Memoirs and Secrets of the Ancients are inferior to a number of add-ons, except with regard to portraits and other artwork.

Secrets of the Ancients was an add-on in Wesnoth 1.12 before being added to the mainline campaigns in Wesnoth 1.14. (I think Delfador's Memoirs was once an add-on too, but that was a long time ago.)

With the exception of Heir to the Throne, most mainline campaigns have started out as add-ons. So, the statement of "addons never being mainlined" is entirely false.

The process is:

Add-on is Made,
Add-on impresses 2-3 devs
Add-on elevated to candidancy status
Reviewed by the SP/MP content manages/Art director/PM and changes recommended
Satisfactory changes made
and then added

and this process takes around 2-4 years.

[Atreides]

Hello rmj from one fumbler to another! :) Agree totally with your post.

To expand on the subject of things getting harder: I've read a lot of posts where the feedback is often. Bah, way to easy, I walked through it half asleep. Then the people react by saying, oh no, I better fix it.

That's misleading because who's gonna post that, oh no I got smashed. Many people have a lot of pride. (Not me, I always post I got killed or wiped out but then again I'm a oddball) Not to mention the people who find it too hard and just delete the game and never think about it ever again.

[gnombat]

With the exception of Heir to the Throne, most mainline campaigns have started out as add-ons. So, the statement of "addons never being mainlined" is entirely false.

Right, but on the other hand, that has only happened once in the last ten years. (Twice if you count World Conquest.)

[max_torch]

What if there was a tutorial that teaches strategy, to help the fumblers have a better time tackling difficult campaigns, and know things such as "the lighthouse and bonfire give daylight for the lawful units"?

I think some of the key strategies for campaigns can be succinctly articulated...

[Lord-Knightmare]

What if there was a tutorial that teaches strategy, to help the fumblers have a better time tackling difficult campaigns, and know things such as "the lighthouse and bonfire give daylight for the lawful units"?

I think some of the key strategies for campaigns can be succinctly articulated...

Like all efforts, someone has to make it into a campaign first to get it noticed.
There were talks about tutorial 2.0 but it went nowhere, AFAIK

[LibreFaso]

It seems that over time the maintainers tend to make the older campaigns harder.

Making the older campaigns harder on hard difficulty may be a good thing to renew interest in them (though it probably would be best done by adding a fourth difficulty mode).
But you are right that there is no justification in making them harder in easy or medium difficulty.

[LibreFaso]

"the lighthouse and bonfire give daylight for the lawful units"?

BTW, since then do they do that (and in what map/campaign can I see one) ?

[Lord-Knightmare]

"the lighthouse and bonfire give daylight for the lawful units"?

BTW, since then do they do that (and in what map/campaign can I see one) ?

Maybe in TRoW. Clearwater Port?

[demario]

Secrets of the Ancients was an add-on in Wesnoth 1.12 before being added to the mainline campaigns in Wesnoth 1.14. (I think Delfador's Memoirs was once an add-on too, but that was a long time ago.)

With the exception of Heir to the Throne, most mainline campaigns have started out as add-ons. So, the statement of "addons never being mainlined" is entirely false.

I think you're being unnecessarily a bit too harsh here.
Maybe the short sentence you're commenting on could have be more detailed. It would have said what is the observation from many in the community:
The last(?) SP campaign included to mainline "Secrets of the Ancients" had a very unusual short time as an add-on before it was put in mainline (was it written by one developer?). In another thread (1.17 roadmap), we have a couple developers who are "openly" (in a restricted access forum ) talking about writing new mainline campaigns from scratch (goal: to be mainline in less than 2 years).
That leaves little time for these campaigns to live as add-ons (even if it the plan is to put them there first)

For World Conquest (dear to my heart), it is fair to say that as it is modified from the original version, it never lived and was never played much as UMC before it was released in 1.16. The feeling is the same, devs can do whatever they want and that's in mainline.

The process is:

Add-on is Made,
Add-on impresses 2-3 devs
Add-on elevated to candidacy status
Reviewed by the SP/MP content manages/Art director/PM and changes recommended
Satisfactory changes made
and then added

and this process takes around 2-4 years.

This process shows that anything one or a couple of developers are working on has a much better shot at getting mainlined than any other add-on.
And this without much to say from the community (which has spoken about its preferred add-ons through different polls and threads). So the devs should not be hurt if the community doesn't understand.

Personally I think the split mainline/UMC has lived past its shelf date. If you want changes to be play-tested, issues to be discovered and reported, feedback received the work needs to happen in an add-on for the current stable. A mainline campaign that is heavily worked on should fall back to add-on server.

[Pentarctagon]

Something to note is that some add-on authors of popular add-ons are opposed to the idea of their add-on being mainlined.

[gnombat]

The last(?) SP campaign included to mainline "Secrets of the Ancients" had a very unusual short time as an add-on before it was put in mainline

Secrets of the Ancients was originally released on the add-on server in 2014 (June 9) and then it was added to the main Wesnoth Git repository in 2016 (December 15). So it was an add-on for 2½ years.

[doofus-01]

Part of the reason Secret of the Ancients was chosen for mainline was that it was relatively cleanly written and that the maintenance wouldn't be problematic. The author (beetlenaught) is a developer because he wrote campaigns that got mainlined, it wasn't that he was part of some insider club and that's why his campaigns got mainlined. The newer Winds of Fate had a bit different development history, but it was to fill a long-standing gap, other existing UMC campaigns were considered, and it was hardly developed in a restricted forum.

What if there was a tutorial that teaches strategy, to help the fumblers have a better time tackling difficult campaigns, and know things such as "the lighthouse and bonfire give daylight for the lawful units"?

I think some of the key strategies for campaigns can be succinctly articulated...

Like all efforts, someone has to make it into a campaign first to get it noticed. :P
There were talks about tutorial 2.0 but it went nowhere, AFAIK

Is part of the problem that people don't want to spend a lot of time futzing around in a tutorial? Maybe putting more explanations and guidance in some of the campaigns, for some clearly labelled difficulty level, is better. It's already done in some places, if I recall correctly, maybe just more of that. There could be short, simple, extra scenarios for "tutorial difficulties" to cover things that are missing in the campaign(s) (for example, if TSG needs to address lighthouse illumination, and doesn't already).

[Atreides]

Is part of the problem that people don't want to spend a lot of time futzing around in a tutorial?

Absolutely! I am sure that almost all experienced game players who come to Wes feel themselves above such a thing as a tutorial. Is it arrogance? Surely. But it has to be taken into account. :)