SXRPG Version 7.7.60 -- 1.18 Server

[Skyend]

Hey hey, ich bin die Woche im Urlaub, in der nähere von München weswegen ich nur wenig kommentiert habe.
Heute geht's in Deutsche Museum und dannach mtg spielen. (Ich nutze die fahrt um ein paar Gedanken festzuhalten.

So first of all have a nice day.

I've joined back the offical balancing team for units balancing. Will focus on default era, to have a great one for 1.20. But will try to fix some unreasonable buffs for lvl 2+ units. That includes Necromancer others (Slyph, Great Mage, Elvish Sharpshooter) shouldn't matter with dmg cap. Maybe slight hp or resi (+10 arcane for Great Mage), but I don't think that's needed nor can I cancel the whole arcane rework (sadly).

Honestly I don't think that high lvl units are fraction vice balanced, but mostly just a better version of it's previous lvl.
That's also why Era of Heros sucks ass :p and is only played for fun if it's even played.

Let's go over your unit balance now.
You can't balance everything perfect without adjusting Individual units, however I don't think that's needed.
The question is how much op is fine, or how big the gap can be, so that a worse unit still feels good enough in compare. This is highly subjektiv, some may cry about +-5% others don't mind +-20%. I'm probalby somewhere at around +-10%.

I even don't think that +-5% is wanted. It's important that units still have their strenghts. Also there should never be a punishment (debuff > gain) from a having strengh.

While u can't show the exact units stats on unit select window I highly recommended to lower the flattening a bit more. This way still get the strenghts, the unit you have picked.

Honestly I would have been fine with just some dmg and hp adjustments, but I like the idea of adressing more stats.

But, when will it be enough? There are many u haven't yet adressed. What's about?
-Abilities (strong: Illuminaten, solid: Regenok, good: Tele, mid: heal)
-2x good weapons (Necromancer)
-high terrain defense (Master At Arm)
-high dmg sure there is a cap, but no debuff formula (so a unit at the cap is still better in that regards than a unit with lower dmg)
-fast lk early build
-expected items to be fond
-lvl 4 units needs more xp 260 IIRC and lvl 3 only 195 IIRC
.... there are probably more and stuff you don't consider

I think it's also important to consider the difficulty of the played map. On lower tier maps you may not need a 2nd weapon while it's 100% needed on harder maps.
Also a default mandace weapon might not be used (as 2nd weapon) when u find an slightly upgraded one (even if it's worse), but that depends om the situation and strenghts of the default weapon.

On higher tier maps and in the mid-late game a slightly higher base dmg on 1 sigle weapon will matter less, as long as you can't beat the game with only that one :p.
Therefore, even if it's strong especially in the early, later on it's not going to matter too much.

There is also the chance that a particular dmg type is worse/better on a particular map. Makes units differs on every map to some extend. (I think arcane is bit worse on Chapter V IIRC that is)

About fly:
- u have 2 items that can grand it
- with the additon of +5% resi on terrain upgrade u already have an argument that's challenge a flyer = many terrains eith 1 mp cost (u still need to pay 100-165 or so for terrain Training, the question is how much u need to pay more, that's even less)

Well sure I can agrue about all or many item can be found it also depends on how fast u get them and at that point I wouldn't consider it anymore. Only thing that u should and did changed was cursed ring on chapter II or other not shuffled early finds. About later finds, I don't think that Skirmisher on Chapter IV is an issue still shuffled seems more fun.

-------
With all that said I recommend to reduce the flatten of all formals (tho I can't really feal if it's at the sweat spot yet)

I think it's important if you not down the gold value and final stats of ever buff, as you did but more more detailed (this should help a lot)

For Armory I think 33% rounded down is better, that's:

base armory : base + gain = new
0 : 0 + 3 = 3
1 : 1 + 2 = 3
2 : 2 + 2 = 4
3 : 3 + 2 = 5
4 : 4 + 1 = 5
5 : 5 + 1 = 6
6 : 6 + 1 = 7

5, 2.5, 1.5% hp changes is already only some hp. So yeah, might be fine (I would reduce it even more)

Iron Mauler got too much hp, I think that's beyond what ppl would expect on unit selection window.
I think it's base hp is kinda low, that's someting I'm looking into for 1.20 change.

Egal, wir sind jetzt angekommen.

[Mabuse]

So meanwhile i took a Test on Version 772, to see what the nerfed inferno Drake can do.

SXRPG Chapter IVTemple of Bones Version 772 NERFED Infernodrake TOB Turn 50 HailBlessing.gz

(603.56 KiB) Downloaded 5 times

Nerfed Infernodrake Turn2 Leader67 kill, turn 50 TOB uncontested
Ranger Hail+Blessing Build.


Build was similar, like the previous i posted, but i renounced on some early Armor and early Shield to get +9 damage (in posted build it was +8)
Since the CAP-NERF took 2 away, so i was only down 1 damage.

The lower HP were regognizeable, as you cannot pull off stunts like clearing whole MAP on turn 1, however that early yellow potion solves all problems anyway. Got a Turn 2 Leader 6+7 Kill. Because i was so fast ai counter attacks were quite weak still.

i got attack-spell as planned but used it rarely as the map supports you with plenty potions, and my fast progression kept the price high, but i killed most stuff without 2nd attack anyways, because faster means weaker roaming bosses.

Initilally the plan was to get Firebreath (default) + Sling,

but i found a Fine Longbow, added blessing, later slow,
and even later found Undeadbane Fireball which i also upgraded with slow

(so all in all i paid 2x slow+1x Blessing = 700 for upgrades) with Sling it would have been (Hail (250) + Slow (300) + Blessing (100) + Precision (150) = 800)

dont know which way it would have been better (because you cannot fight fire-titans and red spiders with pierce+fire) but the undeadbane fireball surely helped getting rid of the undead (especially Ghoulmages, Bonedraons).

so i felt lucky, as i havent found an undeadbane weapon for month now in a game, and this game was again the prove that the undeadbane stuff still in the game

in the end fight i really needed hvy armor and got 75, 80, 70, 70 on the needed resistances, which was good enough though.


Conclusion is:
- TOB needs either a revisit that changes the entire route to ai ai7, and give it another leader
- or we keep it as a Speedrun Map, because you can just fly right through it. which is fun, but also a waste of a good map.

the map is not prepared for modern SXRPG Build, and could have more potencial. so i think there may be a revisit and a redesign of TOB

[Mabuse]

You can't balance everything perfect without adjusting Individual units, however I don't think that's needed.

thats right, but then there will be no balance for unkown units

It's important that units still have their strenghts. Also there should never be a punishment (debuff > gain) from a having strengh.

basically i agree. but if we only go higher and higher then its a power inflation.

Honestly I would have been fine with just some dmg and hp adjustments, but I like the idea of adressing more stats.

sure, i didnt take much other stuff into account, absaiclly there would be a penatly for units that have additional abilities OR a buff for units thats have none - also: strong default weapons can be also an ability

-high terrain defense (Master At Arm)

i took terrain defesne into the equation but it only punishes units that have no other strengh (e.g. sauran skirmisher), also master at arms has no interesting abilities or strong armor, so why punish him for that.

i see high terrain defense as some kind of ability a units has. like teleport or regen (which were also not adressed)

so units have their strengh and weaknesses.

so one has strong weapon
other has good defesne
other has high armor
other has additional abilities

and some have a mix, thats individual unit strengh atm, which is MAYBE a bit reflected in unit-cost
(and thus give a slight nerf on HP)

About fly:
- u have 2 items that can grand it
- with the additon of +5% resi on terrain upgrade u already have an argument that's challenge a flyer = many terrains eith 1 mp cost (u still need to pay 100-165 or so for terrain Training, the question is how much u need to pay more, that's even less)

fly can help you pull off stunts you cant do otherwise, escaping enemies. sure if you get the items, but flying is a huge advantage

Iron Mauler got too much hp, I think that's beyond what ppl would expect on unit selection window.
I think it's base hp is kinda low

i atm think its great though, since mauler is such a massive unit, in the base game it has low cost and low base hp to balance its armor, but in SX it makes no sense for him to be fragile AND clumsy (has the shittiest movement of all) and its armor isnt even that great (has even weknesses in key resistances)

so in order to bring it back into the game we must make it a juggernaut,

and also i want to state: i didnt push it indivudually, this is just the result how the balancing actually works:

1)
- new HP formula capped a bit the HP powerhouses and made low HP and mid HP gain more in comparison
(still massive HP some out on top ofc)
since shocktrooper has mid-hp, he profited

2)
- power penalty. shock tropper is a cheap unit, below power cap, so he profited

3)
- has only 4 moves. units with 4 (or less) moves got am HP buff

4)
- HP scaling in terms of Mobility. ST has one of the shittiest movement sets ever
AND low movement. so he profits again most.


so shocktropper stacks on all HP buffs ending up as top HP unit, there is a [censored] of gold needed to make him able to move on the SXRPG-battlefield
also being weak in fire and cold is usualy not that good. he also has bad terrain defense which is now even more important to dodge projectiles.

we will see if this steel-giant will find its way

[Mabuse]

i agree though that the buff on less-than-5-move units could be as well deletd or tuned down, as it showed an unwanted side effect of bolstering dwarves.
which a re more rpne to get a NERF.

which they will if i remove that bonus

after that i will try a 2 turn-kill on TOB with griffin and shop weaopons ranger hail+blessing

[Mabuse]

So here is Replay of a Shop Griffin Ranger uncontested Leader67 Kill Turn 2

SXRPG Chapter IVTemple of Bones Griffin Shop Ramger Leader Kill Turn 2 Uncontested Replay.gz

(521.05 KiB) Downloaded 7 times

The Potion Expense is a bit higher because Griffin has only like 85 HP
also i needed to optimze the Route to get some more Damage after killing leader6

now tell me again that Ranger is weak compared to Warrior. We still have to pull that off with Warrior.

but that even shop-griffin can take out leader67 in 2 turns (on highest difficulty), shows that we need to restructure the map

[Skyend]

Well, blessing is strong. If focus isn't needed then ranger sucks less ass.

Hail, Blessing, Slow are great
Presision, good for mandance (not magical/2nd weapon)

focus sucks ass

[Mabuse]

Well, blessing is strong. If focus isn't needed then ranger sucks less ass.

Hail, Blessing, Slow are great
Presision, good for mandance (not magical/2nd weapon)

focus sucks ass

precision is needed to get more damage as you need as much as you can (IMO)
but then you have a top damage-ratio

i'd also recommend attack spell as backup option to deal with certain enemy types.
(if you want to be independent from blues)

focus is more damage, but also disadvanatage taking more damage
(armor/Hp becomes more important)


.......

meanwhile i did a warrior turn 2 leader kill with griffin (rage+slow) to see the difference
since griffin is rather fragile and not best resistances (but at least it has no some) is was not optimal choice for warrior.

SXRPG Chapter IVTemple of Bones Test Warrior uncontested Leaderkill turn2 griffin.gz

(521.5 KiB) Downloaded 7 times

you can see that if you compare end results, ranger ends up with much more HP and more potions at the end.
while warrior is pretty much depeleted.

ofc that also have to do with enemy type, draining melee enemy are the bane of warriors, while slowing ranged enemies are the bane of rangers,
but that particular section contained has a) melee slow leader 6 and b) draining leader 7 so it was objectively harder for warrior then for ranger.

however, it was still possible,
now if you ask me what is more complex to play, i would even say warrior, because ranger can neglect armor longer, while warrior has to deal with that aspect quite early, but both are not overly complex and we can say both classes are pretty balanced and if one is better than the other is may depend on map/enemy types.

ofc warrior can deal more damage and ranger need attack spell to compensate for that, but his boni give him effectively the first kill-movement ability for free so that evens also out (and adds a layer of complexity to ranger, who has to get the class items to optimize mana-inflow)


Next steps:

- as for the map, i think its cool to figure that option for speed run out, but objectively it is not wanted to beat leader 7 that early
so the map will change in that aspect and also other aspects.

- balancewise the 4-movement or less bonis will be deleted, resulting in less HP for all unit with 4 HP compared to actual version
as small compensation i may give a small HP bonus to ALL units, by setting the basic penalty from 10% to 9%

[Skyend]

You mean turn 2? Why should turn 2 matter? When there are still 65 for you to play. (or 60 max for me :p)
Warrior dosen't need that much dmg it has 3x duration, yeah with that slow and 50% armory on offense is wanted or Regen something.

But beeing forced to buy more dmg, do you think that's makes Ranger better?

I don't see your point.

Also ofc chapter IV is speedrunable, afterall I did it first.
Surely u can win the map with ranger too, as there are enough of my replays here.
Will it be good enough on higher tier maps uncontested idk. Is it worse than warrior, I guess so.
You buffed it, therefore I can't with 100% say how good ranger is now.

So all I say is that ranger is the bottom line. (maybe together with rogue warrior, depending on the map I guess, not bad chapter V IIRC)
Other classe have more options. Warrior 3,4 x duration. While Ranger needs to pay 450g for a worse Rage + u can't get crit or (blessing) if your forced to take it.

So yeah surely nice that blessing is combindable with hail, that movement got cheaper (so you can proff your odd early lk point), and hail got slightly reduced.

But that will not change:
1. focus is to expensive
2. no future upgrades with focus
3. potential to low overall dmg on higher tier maps with blessing (without means focus it sucks too)
4. you need to buy more dmg early (not a real downside just fact)
5. presision is bad at defense (worse on higher tier maps)
you argue that's it's needed to deal enough dmg, but that's just the same bs with focus, also why would I care if I hit, let's say with 10 strikes and 2x duration, 20|80% : 16 strikes over 20|70% : 14 strikes.
Then it cost 180g IIRC and blessing is even better for only 100g IIRC + without any real drawback.
And blessing at 10 strikes gets + 2 double duration 24|70% : 16.8 strikes. (it's lower while we can't count blessing as +20% strike with it's beeing a threshold. I think it's more like 1.16-1.18 so about 16.4 strikes)
Ok the weapon special upgrades, now after your buff gives those combos:
1. slow + hail + magical + blessing (s, 2x, 70% cth a/d, +16-18% strikes) av hit 16.4 dmg/strike
2. slow + hail + magical + focuse (s, 2x, 70% cth a/d, + 50% dmg both ) av hit 21dmg/strike
3. slow + hail + presision + blessing (s, 2x, 80% cth attack only (40-60 on def), +16-18% strikes) av hit 18.7dmg/strike
4. slow + hail + presision + focuse (s, 2x, 80% cth attack only (40-60 on def), +50% dmg both) av hit 24dmg/strike

With presision you can agrue about how often u fight enemies on def with ranged and that depends on maps difficulty too. However having one weapon with magic + slow will help you reducing income dmg on def.
Obviously the most important reason is for magical that your weapon often already has it.

Therefore I like to keep magical over presision.
I also liked torch on Chapter II, vs those insect swarms (flies I guess).

Also most of the time your starting weapon is stronger if you picked a mageish unit. Having presision on your 2nd weapon that both of your weapons are more close to the same dmg is nice.

In the lategame it will comes down to hp (warroir is cheaper), armory (warrior has more), attack spell (Rangers will be more expensive), total dmg (ranger as said is lower)

Well it also depends on how good the enemie units are, and sometimes ranged units needs to upgrade less armory types. But that's more hopefull wished, or low tier maps. Not a map I want to play for a challenge.
So I don't see how Ranger isn't worse. Tho the 20% mp cost reduction will do something, while u didn't use attack spell all that much (from what I read), I have to use it often. (surely the mp reduction helped u to reach your turn 2 lk goal.)

[Mabuse]

You mean turn 2? Why should turn 2 matter? When there are still 65 for you to play. (or 60 max for me :p)

but you realize i uploaded a turn 50 game, right?
with RANGER AFTER THE NERF, (-2 damage and -30HP, so effectively -300 gold for inferno drake)

using hail-blessing.

i killed the first demon sub-Boss (demon warlock) in the temple at turn 15

why turn 2 matters is easily explained: because it gives you a lot of gold.
compared to e.g. 10 turns later

But beeing forced to buy more dmg, do you think that's makes Ranger better?

so you think being forced to buy HP and armor and havin -1 ability point makes warrior better?

I don't see your point.

well its not about points its about evidence.
the evidence right now is, that ranger can beat TOB within 50 turns

i cant say it was too hard, still i will not say "ranger class is op, its so mindless and simple to play ranger"
(rather: the map is broken and need to be fixed)

while your turn 63 run was like: "look how OP warrior is, i beat the map in 63 turns"

so in order to state that warrior is OP you gotta beat TOB in like 49 turns
(i think though that warrior will struggle with that)

Is it worse than warrior, I guess so.
You buffed it

first of: that hail+blessing were not availabe in the game was a bug.
the combo was always in the game for like always, changing that was a mistake
( i seriously thought its still in there, it was taken out for whatever reason)

maybe becasue its kinda OP

then after we count all the numbers HAIL upgrade (which is backbone of ranger) got 50 gold cheaper.

also gave it -20% hit&run movement cost
because

a) it got that buff already in the past and was taken back
b) it gives it effectively +1 ability point
and it kinda makes sense

and not because i wanted to proof that t2 run is possible, becasue then i would have done this BEFORE the nerf
it was possible all the time, and right now after nerf it is a bit more difficult.

but also since i can still pull it off with ultimate selfnerf using level 2 griffin hero with 85 HP and shop weapon.
as i already posted

So all I say is that ranger is the bottom line. (maybe together with rogue warrior, depending on the map I guess, not bad chapter V IIRC)

nah. ranger is like warrior but easy
prove me wrong.

following your logic (win on TOB map on 50 turns - thats like 20% faster) , i think i have proven that ranger is easy to play
and the most OP Class

use any OP unit you want.

this is mainly due to the pool of units it can choose from.
ranger be be pretty much every unit, while for warrior i would recommend looking for high HP and solid armor
(with good distibution)

Other classe have more options. Warrior 3,4 x duration. While Ranger needs to pay 450g for a worse Rage + u can't get crit or (blessing) if your forced to take it.

ranger hail+focus+precision does more damage than rage/critical hit
(now we can talk about the price again,and i will tell you the same again: +50 for weapon +50 for slow, +50 for ability, +15 for net is what warrior has to pay for additionally, so the difference isnt that high, regarding to the missing ability point on warriors side maybe even worse for warrior)

beside the fact the the alternative ranger combo hail+blessing is much cheaper and was always considered the main ranger branch.

duration 4 may only be an option in tournament on asymetric attack, in normal game its pretty much useless, because you dont need it anyways.
(so why pay more and figure out the on/off thingy)

So yeah surely nice that blessing is combindable with hail, that movement got cheaper (so you can proff your odd early lk point), and hail got slightly reduced.

right, that not much, but it was done,

btw, that hit&run movement got cheaper AND +1move after kill make it essentially the LIGHTFOOT ability
and for THAT reason it was given, surely not that i can "proof" my early LK, because that could have been done without that.

But that will not change:
1. focus is to expensive

maybe it is EXPENSIVE but why should it be TOO EXPENSIVE? (or less expensive)

price is justified, because hail+focus-precision is the strongest general playable attack in the game
thats a difference.


all other attacks
berserk, onrush+charge are special cases with high risk or special setup

(else prove it and win on TOB with all main weapons berserk or charge+onrush)

2. no future upgrades with focus

5. presision is bad at defense (worse on higher tier maps)
you argue that's it's needed to deal enough dmg, but that's just the same bs with focus, also why would I care if I hit, let's say with 10 strikes and 2x duration, 20|80% : 16 strikes over 20|70% : 14 strikes.

precision is the follow up or preceeding upgrade
and you realize that 16 strikes that hit are roughly 14% more hitting strikes than 14 ?

thats maybe the little bit of damage you need to get the kill.

3. potential to low overall dmg on higher tier maps with blessing (without means focus it sucks too)

well, since hail+focus-precision is the combo that does
the MOST damage in the game, i fail to see the potencial low damage of the ranger class

(beside berserk and charge+onrush, which are open for you to prove to be useful in general)


HOWEVER, ranger was designed to do less damage than warrior, but be more mobile.
and that is reflected in the upgrades.

you can make ranger dealing warrior damage with focus combo, but it has a price.
but there is no need for that.

5. presision is bad at defense (worse on higher tier maps)

while that is true, its a matter of playstyle, ranger is no tanking class

Then it cost 180g IIRC and blessing is even better for only 100g IIRC + without any real drawback.

it is 150 gold, and there is no need to compare them, because both of them can be combined.

1. slow + hail + magical + blessing (s, 2x, 70% cth a/d, +16-18% strikes) av hit 16.4 dmg/strike
2. slow + hail + magical + focuse (s, 2x, 70% cth a/d, + 50% dmg both ) av hit 21dmg/strike
3. slow + hail + presision + blessing (s, 2x, 80% cth attack only (40-60 on def), +16-18% strikes) av hit 18.7dmg/strike
4. slow + hail + presision + focuse (s, 2x, 80% cth attack only (40-60 on def), +50% dmg both) av hit 24dmg/strike

it is +14% damage as previously said.

With presision you can agrue about how often u fight enemies on def with ranged and that depends on maps difficulty too. However having one weapon with magic + slow will help you reducing income dmg on def.
Obviously the most important reason is for magical that your weapon often already has it.
Therefore I like to keep magical over presision.

well, i can see that,
and maybe the precision thingy isnt needed if you go focus+hail, then its overall cheaper 450 compard to rage which is 300
but warrior paid +90 gold for his fire, cold, arcane weapon (while ranger has solid chance to pay nothing for it OR pay 45)
warrior pay +50 for slow, and +15 gold for his defensise weapon, and +50 for his mobile ability that the ranger already has.

= ranger is cheaper

(surely the mp reduction helped u to reach your turn 2 lk goal.)

no it didnt, becaue else it would have simply bought the 2nd ability as i also always do for warrior.
but since ranger should be more mobile it is ok, but in a way OP

and the proof for that is ofc that i already did l2 leader kill with griffin which is - 23HP, -2 damage and -1 strike down in comparison to nerfed inferno,
so its like 450 gold down compared to inferno, and thus i guess believing me that i would have simply bought that movement ability for 50 gold in case i wouldnt have it for free already, is outta question. the l2 kill has nothing to do with buff

ok, now griffin has 10 moves righ at start so that +150 gold on the griffin side, so its like +300 for nerfed inferno

and i also did it with griffin as warrior, which was harder.


So conclusion: Ranger is TOP Tier Class, my prove is TOB win at turn 50, no resistances at 100% were ever needed
(but tbh i think it can be done even faster with ranger, because 2 times i had i reorganize myself after realizing the current stuff i carry is not enough, which cost always like 5 turn each, so i think if you really go crazy and make everything right, maybe 1 day earlier is possible.)



---------------


next subject is:

i did a l2 leader kill with Shocktrooper to see wether if the high HP (will be nerfed in next version, the replay is already nerfed version)
with reduced 4mp bonus, but some slight other bonus, so it ended now up with 134 HP, with warrior-class at 150 HP

and the result was that t2 kill was not possible, but t3 kill, but it was fasr from being comfortable.

so for early t2 kill mobility is more important (on TOB), also dauntless has not much effct for shocktrooper since its distributions are somewhat bad, so i had to renounce on it. the only hop is once you can upgrade his impact weapon it will do a lot of damage.
also to get all the mobility items for shocktrooper were missing for damage then. so shocktrooper leading the ha table which wil be nerfed for all mp4 units (dwarves+wose will lose (-8 to -10 hp) some hp compared to now)

SXRPG Chapter IVTemple of Bones Speedrun Warrior uncontested Shocktrooper Leaderkill67 t2.gz

(522.08 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

[Mabuse]

and another easy peasy T2 Leader67 Kill on TOB

this time i felt generous and used Dragonguard (is again a bit nerfed as said and has now in version 773: 106 HP (772 version: 114 HP)), so in replay it starts with 106 = already nerfed. Dragonguard also had to buy FIREBALL shop weapon, so i really had to pay this time.

however, since gold is high i go focus+hail+precision, because i feel like having the best attack in game is the appropriate thing for ranger and because i had to read it is extremely difficult to obtain.

which it isnt ofc.

what i have observed is that you really need (like warrior) SLOW special sooner or later, without SLOW i needed a serious boost from the blue pots for the the L7 boss to be able to survive.

this game will be continued, because i kinda want to know how hard this "focus sucks so much - it is so difficult"-stuff i read all the time is all about.
so far i can say, i feel like i will rock the map.

so im looking for some warrior-competition, because my dragonguard has now the strongest weapon ingame, and i feel like a serious warrior-contender wont berserk the whole map - so it will be kinda difficult to topple the damage out put of the ranger. also i look forward watching my dragonstick annihilates the bad mages

but now, the replay:

easy peasy ranger rocks it again on uncostested

SXRPG Chapter IVTemple of Bones EASY PEASY Ranger Play Turn2 Leader Kill Focus+Hail Dragonguard.gz

(530.68 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

[Skyend]

Yeah I overlooked the turn 50 win.

But, I'm not wrong with any of my points.
And it dosen't matter it's your add-on.
If I feel like, I will play it.
If I think Ranger isn't good enough and don't feel it anymore I'm not playing it.

[Mabuse]

But, I'm not wrong with any of my points.

well, lets be honest:

MANY points you said were wrong
your main points were:

---------------

1) "Warrior is OP, while Ranger is weak",
your "prove": Turn63 win on TOB - with upgrading 100% armor
accompanied by grumbling how less skill is required for warrior

and for me immediatly it was clear that in general the statement is nonsense, because
a) beating a map is not bad anyways, becasue you did all the work to get to that point, so your strategy paid off in a win
b) in a higher tiered map you would, probably need more than 4 resists anyways
c) in any game except solo you most likely wont get it anyway
d) it isnt needed since you can as well win with 75, 80, 90 %
e) you got it becasue of item stacking not becasue of warrior
f) turn 63 is not a great time anyways to make a point about whatsoever


-------------------

2) "Ranger does not good Damage compared to Warrior".
wrong again. as it is clear Ranger does more damage than Warrior

Hail (factor 2) + Focus (faktor 1.5) + Precision (factor 0.8 ) = 2.4
is obviously higher than
Rage (Factor 3) + Critical Hit (factor 1.1) + Magical (Factor 0.7) = 2,31

so thats basic math, right?

so how do you come to the conclusion that ranger doesnt do good damage?
man, ranger is a powerhouse, it leads the Table with the Damage.

--------------------

3) Warrior has more Armor.

well the main point is: Ranger has also CHEAP (20 gold) armor which means he can get Armor cheaply very early in the game
also: Ranger has access to Hvy Armor Upgrade.

AND (this is after the BUFF ranger recieved) now he is ahead 1 Ability Point, and this Point matters.
A lot. Because Ranger will be more likely be able to get Hvy Armor Skill without any support Ability-points given ingame.

THIS is what matters.

Warrior has 2 more Armor, which will be only of importance in late game, while Ranger has better mobility which is relevant from Turn 1 on. (or Warrior cope by spending an Ability Point).

So no, warrior dont have an easy time becasue he can spend 2 more armor points in late game.

--------------------

i think your frustration came by playing evil dead and having to deal with these wolfriders with ranged slow, but this is situational.
and not a general problem.


you had a small point though that i decided to strip some armor away, from the items
but that had nothing to do with warrior class

but it was corrected

--------------------------

4) you have a point by saying there is a problem with the upgrades, and we found that

a) hail+blessing didnt work
b) focus+hail for 500, after doing some math there was room for some a little discount, so hail go 50 bucks cheaper.

so that was also corrected

so now every Game AFTER that correction, is already a corrected game in which the ranger has to pay 50 gold less for focus+hail combo
so we cannot 100% say if it was sooo game-breaking that ranger was unplayable before, but the chances are extremely high that this wasnt the case.

--------------------------
and yet you say Ranger is weak.
--------------------------


Now be honest
------------->
what would happen, if you beat TOB on Turn 50 with Warrior?
Seriously, what would you say, if that would happen?



But the Truth is:
Turn 50 is ofc a weak time. even this is no good speedrun time



so now i present you the mighty dragonguard ranger, with a TOB speedrun time of 39
with shop weapon as main. (as you wanted)

and: not a single bomb was thrown that day.



which was always THE archetype of the ranger back in the early days of SX. i played it a lot.
ranger was always one of the best classes, and that didnt change up to this day

SXRPG Chapter IVTemple of Bones DRAGONGUARD RANGER SPEEDRUN Turn 39 Uncontested.gz

(595.19 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

Dragonguard Ranger Uncontested Speedrun TOB Turn 39
with SHOP Fireball (Hail+Focus+Precision)
and Thunderstick (Hail+Blessing+Prescision)

Turn2 Leader67 Kill, last Leader dies at Turn 39


and now lets imagine what you would say, if a warrior would have beaten the map in 39 turns

but luckily its a ranger who set this record. and with this every discussion about Ranger is weak / Warrior is OP comes to an end
Ranger is a TOP Tier Unit, it has its weaknesses, if it faces early or later units it cannot beat yet, but that hold true for warrior as well.


btw, if you want to speedrun TOB you better save the old map, becasue the map will be revisited to make early leader kill more difficult.
P7 will be reinforced and perhaps also changes to the map.

which hopefully results in later leaderkill, thus havingf less gold early, thus not being able to pull off that stunt anymore.

so if you wann try that, go for it, but no matter what the result is, the ranger/warrrior discussion is finsihed with that it was misleading and is fully untrue that ranger is weak and warrior is skillless.

gameplaywise the classes are very similar, ewven more so that their dmage output is almost equal, and even the total price of all upgrades combined is pretty similar.

so why would you even assume that ranger plays differently than warrior?
the only difference is when enemies come into acoount, because warrior and renger obviously struggle against different types of enemies.

there is no need for this discussion. it is misleading and untrue.

or lets dicuss it further: Ranger made a 39 speedrun on TOB, shall we nerf it?

[Skyend]

man I really don't wanna argue. Your wins are impressive, and I'm looking forward to watch them.

I only played the map before my vacation, because it's easy. + I haven't played it yet on uncontested at least not with the projectile addition to give u some data, I wouldn't have beaten chapter V, IV first try, those I rather wanna play going forward. The others are too easy to take them real, fine tho if your rusty or wanna try something.
Subjectivly rating now is: 1, 2, 4, 3, 0, 6, 5
easy: 1,2
mid but to exploidable: 4, 3 (4 has way to many potions + early lk, 3 has the pots that)
mid: 0 Journys (actully there are a [censored] tone of projectiles on the final stages, not yet sure if there is an fast way to get leader 7 and vesel)
harder: 6 (I think the mid, orcs, is too easy, but it's getting more difficult afterwards)
hard: 5 (not yet sure how to break it, but it's pretty hard)

So yeah I enjoy challenge me on a new or hard map.


1.
a) My view of skill is bias (I don't think 2100 elo on ladder is skilled much, and that's the top 50 of all players. (35-40 without alts, damn I got too many), also it was my about first time warrior amd try, there is enough room for improvment
b, c, d, f) sure, I had 5ish, also 90% at 3-4, I wasn't needed 75-80% is enough especially with low hp upgrades, that will come in had a lot on harder maps (guess what, there is room for improvment, with better resi earlier I would have won a lot faster lol, but first try, I didn't know, and didn't care to speedrun that game)
f) u can always win faster, that doesn't mean that you can beast all off the final boss units in 1-2 turns (couldn't what your replays yet), but that's the power of warrior

2. Smsh 0.9% more dmg compared to Rage if you take focus + presision (don't say nomore about those)
I wonder dosen't warroir has onrush and charge too...
3. it's not bad having the option to spend move ability (so you'll go for it if it's worth it, not copium, so worse case you're a better Ranger, having spend 1 more ability point.

I'm not frustrated, it's just my genaral thoughts, how Ranger will be on harder maps (unlike warrior u will not be able to beast all the 1k hp units)

4. it's fine for easier maps, won even before the bug fix + buff (just not competitive enough in the long run)

If I'd try to speedrun the map it's done at turn 30 max. (No I can't prove it now, I'm on vacation, nor do I find a real challenge and fun)

[Mabuse]

man I really don't wanna argue. Your wins are impressive, and I'm looking forward to watch them.

well, for me it shows that the dynamic system works well and is good balanced
as the fixed bosses in game have always the same stats, and the reward system for early kill works also
and is also taking different factors into account, its interesting that you can do speedruns like this.
this ia something that works well.

the reward system takes several layers into account, one of them is, that ai transfers its income for all the remaing turns (of the kill-window) to other ai.

the number are fictional but explain the method:

e.g.
solo player can pull fast leader kill, and make the remaining ai build more units e.g. 25, for which the solo player gets +1 gold each = +25 gold
group player cannot pull fast kill and will kill leader later, making the remaining ai build 5 more units, which give +5 gold each = 25 gold

but in general: the faster you kill the better it is. but system takes into account that group can not be as fast as solo for the early leaders.
(early kill on ai 6 is often intended)

3. it's not bad having the option to spend move ability (so you'll go for it if it's worth it, not copium, so worse case you're a better Ranger, having spend 1 more ability point.

because mobility matters a lot in solo play, i always try to reduce the cost of hit&run to 16

- warrior needs lightfoot+swiftfootfor this
- ranger (now) needs only lightfoot for reducing cost to 16, because it starts with a cost of 20 now (and while swiftfoot still grant another +1killmove, it would reduce the cost from 16 to 15 which is not worth it)
- cleric would also need 2, but with cleric i would only do it if i go rage and do a hybrid warrior-ülaystye. A sanctification build i would need rather tome and more spells then and only take 1 speed upgrade
- mage either 2 or 1 depends
- roguemage is already absurdly cheap in cost (like 12 after getting its class item), so getting 1 is enough
- rouguewarrior is 2 like warrior


in group play its different, because the game is slower in general, and you have less ability points because you cant know wether you get more or not.
so in group play max of 1 may be is enough, or even none.

I'm not frustrated, it's just my genaral thoughts, how Ranger will be on harder maps (unlike warrior u will not be able to beast all the 1k hp units)

well, the thing is before the rebalnce things were much easier for ranger

a) all units have melee but not all have ranged
b) even if a unit has strong melee, its ranged counterpart was often inferior

while a) still hold true for units, and b) to some extent, many units have a now a serious ranged retaliation (e.g. BIG FUNGOID, which was before the rebalance easy prey, not it can retaliate), but also that there quite a a few units that have now ranged slow

e.g. the wolf riders in evil dead. and while they have charge on their melee weapon, a warrior can mow right through them, while ranger struggles and get hunted by them, same for trolls, have ranged slow now. now they are real tanks for ranged units

so this may lead situational to the impression that ranger is weak and warrior is op.

but ofc the same applies when warrior is dealing with mages, that have slow on their melee.
however, because mages have often MAGICAL on their ranged weapon which leads also to some serious retaliation on ranger side.

so rangers life got noticeably harder in comparison to before the rebalancing of units (when he had a rather easy life),

but it also true that all units in the era that were somehow subject to an "op" discussion are ranged units,
(wether this is true or not, but no one ever stated that grand knight is op, or drake enforcer)
so the ranger class has also access to the most formidable units in the game.

so what we have is:

- equal stats to warrior
- situational some difficulties
- access to strong units in the era

but ofc the warrior also face situational problems, and there are also strong units in the era for warrior,
for warrior its more hidden, its more wether they have good armory or not for example.

If I'd try to speedrun the map it's done at turn 30 max. (No I can't prove it now, I'm on vacation, nor do I find a real challenge and fun)

in this case you better make a copy of it, or i clude a speedrun version of TOB in the next update, because the map will undergo some changes
because the T2 kill were fun while it lasted and was a good test to see wether the dynamic system really allows speedruns against 1280 HP enemies

but its ofc not really intended, and is seen as a design flaw, or better said, the time the map was created, was a different time
and the map wil now recieve a change and will become more interesting. after all its a Tier4 map

so t2 kill on l67 is seen as a game breaking bug rather than an intended feature

[Skyend]

I guess 2x speed upgrade on that particular map with 2x abilities granted later is probably an option.
But ig I don't think u need more than 0-1 and magical classes none.
But I also use attack spell more, so there is a difference. (especially with ranger, all said pre buffs)