Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

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What should Wesnoth Inc. do if given $500,000? (Select up to three options)

Poll ended at October 2nd, 2021, 7:56 pm

Advertise the 1.16 version of Wesnoth by pitching our content to media editors, making a professional promo trailer, buying ads, or something similar
6
17%
Commission portraits/sprite animations for all mainline units that may be missing them, or artwork for narrative sequences
11
31%
Hire freelance programmer(s) to completely port Wesnoth to modern engine (e.g. Godot)
5
14%
Hire freelance programmer(s) to create a secure multiplayer client (i.e. one not easy to cheat in)
4
11%
Commission writers/designers to develop/improve UMC add-ons to get them to “mainline” quality and have them mainlined
9
25%
Other (kindly elaborate with a response to the post, please)
1
3%
 
Total votes: 36

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doofus-01
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by doofus-01 »

More money, more problems. I wouldn't want to be involved anymore.
vghetto wrote: September 25th, 2021, 3:01 pm
demario wrote: September 25th, 2021, 12:11 pm
  • Offer a world with: less European background, less white skinned sprites, more genders, less humanoid "races".
  • NRIW being extended to: no torture, no rape, no slave, no "savage", no hate based on "race", ...
Ugh, this mentality makes me want to puke. Didn't we go through this already with WoV and it almost ripped wesnoth apart?
It's a good thing that Sigurd is still on board and contributing after what had happened.
Sure let's do it all over again *sarcasm"
The dunefolk were also touched by this. There was some "flawed thinking" from both the pro & con camps (sez me). The final result doesn't please everyone, but it turned out better than one might have expected. The portraits are still an upcoming risk/opportunity, I guess

There were also thoughts a long while back to have a skin-color sort of variation, working a bit like TC, so the spearmen etc. would randomly have different skin tones. There isn't really anything stopping someone from making an add-on or pull request that does that (maybe there is such an add-on already?), but it is certainly much easier to post righteous comments.
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ForestDragon
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by ForestDragon »

demario wrote: September 25th, 2021, 12:11 pm Offer a world with: less European background, less white skinned sprites, more genders, less humanoid "races".
What would the point of adding more genders even be?
demario wrote: September 25th, 2021, 12:11 pm NRIW being extended to: no torture, no rape, no slave, no "savage", no hate based on "race", ...
Ehh, seems unnecessary imo. If people don't like campaigns with dark story elements, they can just not play them
demario wrote: September 25th, 2021, 12:11 pm New style of music (electronic, less orchestral, ...)
Honestly the orchestral music is part of wesnoth's charm in my opinion
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Krogen
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by Krogen »

demario wrote: September 25th, 2021, 12:11 pm ...no hate based on "race"...
Then like... half the conflicts in the lore wouldn't happen...? :D
Wait, i'm totally wrong, probably way more than half.
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by ForestDragon »

Krogen wrote: September 25th, 2021, 8:37 pm Then like... half the conflicts in the lore wouldn't happen...? :D
Wait, i'm totally wrong, probably way more than half.
Yeah, one of the scenarios in Eastern in Invasion is even literally named Xenophobia :lol:
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by demario »

ROFL, it seems I triggered something in the dragon-identifying crowd :lol:
vghetto wrote: September 25th, 2021, 3:01 pm
demario wrote: September 25th, 2021, 12:11 pm people who have passion to contribute to wesnoth, but struggle with money, should get a monthly allocation, no question asked, to pursue their endeavors.
Wesnoth shouldn't be a charity.
Call it whatever you like, but if the project has money available and if this increases the output from some people involved, it meets the target.
doofus-01 wrote: September 25th, 2021, 5:55 pm There were also thoughts a long while back to have a skin-color sort of variation, working a bit like TC, so the spearmen etc. would randomly have different skin tones. There isn't really anything stopping someone from making an add-on or pull request that does that (maybe there is such an add-on already?), but it is certainly much easier to post righteous comments.
Maybe because what you describe as a fair shot at inclusiveness (putting black-face on a 72x72 pixelated European medieval concept, if I understand you correctly) isn't remotely making the cut for anyone who cares :augh:
ForestDragon wrote: September 25th, 2021, 7:59 pm If people don't like campaigns [...], they can just not play them
I know, that's the problem we are trying to fix here (hypothetically) :roll:
ForestDragon wrote: September 26th, 2021, 5:52 am [...] literally named Xenophobia :lol:
I rest my case.
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Krogen
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by Krogen »

Picture a fantasy world with humans, elves, dwarves and orcs, where they don't hate each other. Isn't that the most boring thing you can imagine?
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by vghetto »

Bad ideas tend to fester. That's all I saw in that long post, bad ideas galore.

If wesnoth gets some money, a UMC developer doesn't automatically become entitled for that money. "No questions asked" wtf?! As if wesnoth doesn't have an operating cost already.
If you badly want that wesnoth money, then apply to them as an employee, and it becomes up to them if they take you in or not.

We all go into the free opensource sphere knowing exactly what we're getting into.
Maybe because what you describe as a fair shot at inclusiveness (putting black-face on a 72x72 pixelated European medieval concept, if I understand you correctly) isn't remotely making the cut for anyone who cares
Who exactly is getting offended or feeling excluded by this? I want a real human, an actual forum user.
I know, that's the problem we are trying to fix here (hypothetically)
What is the problem exactly? Define it, and let us know who it's affecting. And do tell us the fix.
I rest my case.
Please enlighten us and tell us what that "problematic" title should be.

Here's another one for you. Should the dim trait be removed from goblins because that could be seen as race based hate?

I'm sorry, but what you're peddling is nothing more than Diversity Equity Inclusion religion crap.
A sure way of financially bankrupting wesnoth, and turn the game into a mediocrity. Just like everything else that DEI touches.
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Katzenberg
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by Katzenberg »

Don't you think it is time to overcome these old stereotypes in the Fantasy gender?!

To cancel the word "race". Culture should be used instead. Dwarvish culture, Orcish culture...

And why is the good mage "white" and the evil mage "dark" ? White privilege? Biased.
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Mechanical
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by Mechanical »

I believe that Wesnoth needs:

1. More factions based on European cultures (Slavic, Balkan, Baltic). More creatures from the mythology of these cultures.

2. Religion. It is necessary to prescribe a religion for each faction, because religion is the basis of the medieval worldview (and we have a medieval setting)

3. More hatred and racial wars. Xenophobia and hatred are the driving force of the plot in fantasy works. The more hate we allow, the easier it will be for us to make epic and tragic stories for deep lore.

4. Non-European cultures can be thought of as fringe factions (like orcs). In these factions, you can also implement gender diversity, skin colors, sexual minorities and all other good things.

5. Campaign about drakes.

6. Remove the old deceitful description of dunfolk from 1.14. Recognize that they are paramilitary desert semi-nomads.
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ForestDragon
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by ForestDragon »

7. Remove dunefolk altogether
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by TipTaupe »

ForestDragon wrote: September 25th, 2021, 7:59 pm What would the point of adding more genders even be?
It would add depth to the world, the same as any non-gameplay details we learn about the inhabitants of the Wesnoth. Demario's suggestion was that a hypothetical non-Irdya world could have more genders, but I imagine that they could also fit into Wesnoth's existing world with a bit of care. Human cultures are pretty diverse in how they understand gender, so it stands to reason that in a world with multiple sentient races, there could be as many or more different conceptions of gender.

For example, I can personally see the elves having a third gender analogous to two-spirit people in indigenous American cultures. Male and female elves are both able to use faerie magic, but we only ever see female elves advance to become shydes. Perhaps elfish culture regards higher levels of faerie magic as fundamentally feminine, and if an elf who was born male managed to master it, they would be regarded as in-between male and female, having transcended the assumed limitations of their physical sex. I'm not demanding that someone go and add this, but I think it would definitely add interest to the world.

I also imagine that some players would like to play characters with non-traditional genders. As a woman, I personally prefer to play campaigns that center on female characters, and I imagine that some people would feel similarly about other genders.
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by Hejnewar »

TipTaupe wrote: September 27th, 2021, 8:31 pmMale and female elves are both able to use faerie magic, but we only ever see female elves advance to become shydes.
Elvish High Lord

The unit I posted above is male elf that can use faerie fire, male evles do not have to become Shydes because the can become Elvish High Lords and actually becoming a Shydes would be worse for them than becoming High Lords, why? Because (level 3) High Lord is stronger than (level 4) Shyde, in combat these two are pretty much equal but paying 1 more upkeep for Shyde tips the scale by a lot in favour of High Lord.


While Im here I will also say that I agree with doofus and Dunefolk portraits are I would say big risk (and greater risk than opportunity) looking at reactions that we even here can see. Making them accepted by generic community should imo be priority, thousand nights style is imo best style for them and this was how we mostly thought of them during creation of this rework.
ForestDragon wrote: September 27th, 2021, 2:37 pm 7. Remove dunefolk altogether
This one is still pretty mild for example...
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by Pentarctagon »

I think the main point is that delving into these sorts of issues needs to be done tactfully and in a realistic, meaningful way. Few people would to be happy to have a token homosexual spearman added to HttT for example.
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by demario »

vghetto wrote: September 27th, 2021, 12:22 am If wesnoth gets some money, a UMC developer doesn't automatically become entitled for that money. [...]
We all go into the free opensource sphere knowing exactly what we're getting into.
You should update your radar. I am sure people working at big open-source companies or open-source project hosted by commercial companies are getting paid.
What I mean here: if wesnoth generating revenues and expects people who have been open about financial difficulties to work harder for free, it looks like a bad judgment call. And when paying people who have of job elsewhere for contributions done for money only (whatever the quality), it makes the optics look worse. I don't even see how such a comment could be controversial :hmm:
(And I don't want to minimize the interest and other benefits for people to be part of the team and contribute to wesnoth, this would be available on request)
vghetto wrote: September 27th, 2021, 12:22 am
I know, that's the problem we are trying to fix here (hypothetically)
What is the problem exactly? Define it, and let us know who it's affecting. And do tell us the fix.
Sir. Yes. Sir. :annoyed:
Wesnoth has not benefited from the boom in gaming from that last 15(?) years. People are free to avoid playing wesnoth if they don't like it and they are using this freedom all the time. Anyone interested at increasing reach of wesnoth as a gaming proposal can start thinking on reasons why...
Here's another one for you. Should the dim trait be removed from goblins because that could be seen as race based hate?
Show me a goblin likely to play wesnoth and I will consider your question. I want a real goblin, an actual forum user.
vghetto wrote: September 27th, 2021, 12:22 am what you're peddling is nothing more than Diversity Equity Inclusion religion crap.
A sure way of financially bankrupting wesnoth, and turn the game into a mediocrity. Just like everything else that DEI touches.
Oh right, you have found a name for that. Now it will be easier to discard any feedback by just putting a sticker on them. Good job :augh:
At the end, I can see the game you're playing here, take a 30-line post and extract three sentences and pound on them with all your prejudice. Not fun.

In my first post, I make a reference to NRIW. Let me give you an old quote from the founder of this project. See how you could apply to the topic mutatis mutandis.
Dave wrote: May 31st, 2004, 9:05 pm
These religious people are too easy to offend.
Saying someone is 'too easy to offend' is very easy when you are not personally offended by what is being said. You are making gratuitous value judgements about other people.
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Re: Suggestions to improve Wesnoth if we had $500,000?

Post by TipTaupe »

Hejnewar wrote: September 27th, 2021, 9:31 pm The unit I posted above is male elf that can use faerie fire, male evles do not have to become Shydes because the can become Elvish High Lords and actually becoming a Shydes would be worse for them than becoming High Lords, why? Because (level 3) High Lord is stronger than (level 4) Shyde, in combat these two are pretty much equal but paying 1 more upkeep for Shyde tips the scale by a lot in favour of High Lord.
Elfish lords can use faerie fire for combat, but they don't transform to embody the faerie nature of elves and become "creatures of both worlds" like shydes or sylphs, who are currently all female. On a gameplay level, I wouldn't recommend adding shydes as a regular advancement for any male elf units. However, I think that it would be interesting if the game's lore included a third gender in Elvish culture consisting of rare individuals who were born male but interact with faerie magic in a feminine manner, ultimately allowing them to become shydes. Probably this would only appear in the game as a unique character, if at all.
Pentarctagon wrote: September 27th, 2021, 9:47 pm I think the main point is that delving into these sorts of issues needs to be done tactfully and in a realistic, meaningful way. Few people would to be happy to have a token homosexual spearman added to HttT for example.
Right. This is just one idea, but in any case, it enriches a fantasy world to think about how the people in it would interact with complex and sometimes uncomfortable topics like gender.
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