[Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
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[Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
Disclaimer: This thread is not to announce a finished campaign. It just serves as documentation of the development process.
First and foremost, welcome. As the title gives away, we are planning a dunefolk campaign for mainline. With our involvement in the Dunefolk Rework, I am pretty sure we can offer a lot for such a campaign.
One thing we want to do differently then then in our Dunefolk Rework, is to make the development process public so we can do this together - speaking to the dev team but also to the forum users. So let's do this!
Goals of the Campaign:
Aside of being fun and product of quality, it should introduce new players as good as possible to the their lore and background. On top of that, it should be also expand the already existing world and contribute to the world building.
Considering that there are some restructuring happening concerning the mainline campaigns (where ideally they are categorised into arcs), we are thinking that dunefolk could get his own arc. One single campaign is not enough to introduce a whole new faction, with different background and with new territory around them. This means that the there might be more than just a single dunefolk campaign one day. First we want to focus to get one right.
Story:
We already have two scripts for two possible campaigns (while start developing only one of them) which will be presented in the writers forum. The links will be provided at the end. There you can read them and let us know how they could be improved. Quick note that one of them is a rather short campaign focused on gameplay, world building and memorable characters (Story one) while the other is much longer which focuses on story, lore and character development (Story Two). The shorter one is already in development process to which Yumi contributes and supervised the development process till now.
Expanding The Great Continent:
Now this is were it gets interesting. Lore-wise it always hard to introduce a faction, and instead of trying to squeeze Dunefolk in the main timeline events of wesnoth, we should use opportunity to explore new parts of the Great Continent. There have been attempts of expanding Irdya in the past which I used as references fo what we will share with you guys in another thread. When we talk about new places, then we also have to talk about at what time Dunefolk where doing (whatever they were doing) in these new lands. While most of the Dunefolk lore is now agreed upon, the question of their background is not yet clear. Wether they originated from the Old Continent (if the Old Continent still exists after Yumis rework) or were an ever existing faction on the Great Continent. For that I created another thread to finalise their background and other questions that need to be answered.
Index Of Links:
Expanding The Great Contintent
Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Now to the Stories ... I will hide them not only because its a lot of content but also because of not revealing spoilers for those who want to be surprised. Ultimately it should just show that we actually have something to show for.
Story One
Story Two
Last edited by ghype on April 15th, 2020, 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
- Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
So, I'm not a fan of the first story for some reason. I'm not quite sure why, but something about it just grates on me. As a result, I'll focus my comments on the second story.
Before that, though, I have two general complaints.
If I recall correctly, "luminary" is one of the unit names, right? But in my opinion, it's boring to have an "Order of the Luminary". A more interesting, flavourful name is needed for the equivalent of the alchemist's guild. It could include "luminary" in its name, though.
The second complaint is the reference to a Dunefolk Empire. Has it been decided that dunefolk governance is functionally identical to wesfolk governance? (There's basically no difference between a "kingdom" and an "empire".) That strikes me as kinda boring. Why not choose a more interesting and varied governance structure? They could be a loose confederation of city-states, or a democratic republic akin to ancient Rome or Athens. In the former case, there would probably be one paragon per city; in the latter case, they would serve a role similar to a president or prime minister.
Now, onto the story itself…
Before that, though, I have two general complaints.
If I recall correctly, "luminary" is one of the unit names, right? But in my opinion, it's boring to have an "Order of the Luminary". A more interesting, flavourful name is needed for the equivalent of the alchemist's guild. It could include "luminary" in its name, though.
The second complaint is the reference to a Dunefolk Empire. Has it been decided that dunefolk governance is functionally identical to wesfolk governance? (There's basically no difference between a "kingdom" and an "empire".) That strikes me as kinda boring. Why not choose a more interesting and varied governance structure? They could be a loose confederation of city-states, or a democratic republic akin to ancient Rome or Athens. In the former case, there would probably be one paragon per city; in the latter case, they would serve a role similar to a president or prime minister.
Now, onto the story itself…
Spoiler:
Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
Having been not active for a while, I am very pleased to see the current developments. You have put together two really good campaign ideas (personally I prefer story 2 because of the development of lore, but I understand that this is not the only consideration when creating a campaign).
I am excited to see where everything has come and when I have time I will try to write more in depth comments!
For now I will just say great work!
I am excited to see where everything has come and when I have time I will try to write more in depth comments!
For now I will just say great work!
Creator of: The Reign of The Lords Era,The Gnats Franken Dungeon.
Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
The first one is a bit uninteresting.
If I could suggest a different story line it would be the MC would be a hired sword for merchants, could be a group he leads. could ease into the lore of 1 or 2 maps of them traveling and in one of the cities a Alchemist would look to hire their swords to go on a expedition to a ruin. In the ruin they released something that should have stayed sealed. the MC is the only one able to get away and the ruins they delved into sealed temporary. (what was sealed would be reason story 2 could explain the plague.)
And in story 2 not much to say but working with my story 1 suggestion you would encounter the old MC years later and that he is kinda gone mad (you will have to kill him.) having him be the one that set the coup would be kinda having more of a emotional impact if you were to cure him of his madness at the same time he dies...
(would be interesting that the plague would be people turning into zombies)
I would prefer to have a more rp and nomad kind of game play to explore the world. much like when you enter a city you be able to only recruit from there and then travel from place to place where you have limited recruits/recalls. this would last for a bit before getting into full on story. but eh what you have is good besides story number 1.
If I could suggest a different story line it would be the MC would be a hired sword for merchants, could be a group he leads. could ease into the lore of 1 or 2 maps of them traveling and in one of the cities a Alchemist would look to hire their swords to go on a expedition to a ruin. In the ruin they released something that should have stayed sealed. the MC is the only one able to get away and the ruins they delved into sealed temporary. (what was sealed would be reason story 2 could explain the plague.)
And in story 2 not much to say but working with my story 1 suggestion you would encounter the old MC years later and that he is kinda gone mad (you will have to kill him.) having him be the one that set the coup would be kinda having more of a emotional impact if you were to cure him of his madness at the same time he dies...
(would be interesting that the plague would be people turning into zombies)
I would prefer to have a more rp and nomad kind of game play to explore the world. much like when you enter a city you be able to only recruit from there and then travel from place to place where you have limited recruits/recalls. this would last for a bit before getting into full on story. but eh what you have is good besides story number 1.
Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
Initially I was opting for story two, which I co-wrote, but Yumi is being very supportive of the first Story, written by hejnewar. I then dwelve into the developing process and figured that, while this being a rather short it still offered a lot of lore possibilities. And due to the rpg elemts it somewhat felt refreshing too. However, I let Yumi and Hejne defend their position on their story as they came up with the vision for this campaing.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:10 am So, I'm not a fan of the first story for some reason. I'm not quite sure why, but something about it just grates on me.
These are just terms I use to describe the situation. I will re-direct these questions to the Lore Thread as they indeed are terms that need to be rethought.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:10 am ... But in my opinion, it's boring to have an "Order of the Luminary". A more interesting, flavourful name is needed for the equivalent of the alchemist's guild. It could include "luminary" in its name, though.
The second complaint is the reference to a Dunefolk Empire.
This section answers CM's comments on the story
Spoiler:
"releasing somethign that shoudl have stayed sealed" - that sounds like black magic or a curse. This would have heavy magic connotations. The if we were to talk about sicknesses and plagues would it not be more interesting to have them been organic? As dunefolks herbalists is the one thing that makes them different to other default factions. So they are not healing with magic but herbs. And an organic plague would really stress out the abilities of the apothecaries and herbalists while in a magical plague there wouldn't be much use for the apothecaries/herbalists.Edwylm wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 4:45 am If I could suggest a different story line it would be the MC would be a hired sword for merchants, could be a group he leads. could ease into the lore of 1 or 2 maps of them traveling and in one of the cities a Alchemist would look to hire their swords to go on a expedition to a ruin. In the ruin they released something that should have stayed sealed. the MC is the only one able to get away and the ruins they delved into sealed temporary. (what was sealed would be reason story 2 could explain the plague.)
What ever story we have and how many, we will make sure that they are gonna be connected in one way or another. Turning people into zombies sounds too much like necromancy and black magic. We however thought of a status effect for the sickness , which could be like weaken the attack status or work like a weaker form of poison which however is contagious - meaning that there is a chance that adjacent units can get the sickness as well.Edwylm wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 4:45 am And in story 2 not much to say but working with my story 1 suggestion you would encounter the old MC years later and that he is kinda gone mad (you will have to kill him.) having him be the one that set the coup would be kinda having more of a emotional impact if you were to cure him of his madness at the same time he dies...
(would be interesting that the plague would be people turning into zombies)
We actually went forth and back about concepts like these and we will have such things implemented in one way or another. Wether it is no-recruit like story 1 or you get only new recruits as the story progress or if you have only a limited amount of recruits ... we will have to see which fits the final story the best. Our focus it to first develop one and then let's see...Edwylm wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 4:45 am I would prefer to have a more rp and nomad kind of game play to explore the world. much like when you enter a city you be able to only recruit from there and then travel from place to place where you have limited recruits/recalls. this would last for a bit before getting into full on story. but eh what you have is good besides story number 1.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
In all respect and what be the difference between creating a plague and black magic? To me the chances that the Dunefolk would have today's technology in making such things are near null. It is also hard to believe that who ever created the plague would also make the cure. (they be the first to get infected and die. Thus a spread right away no one would know what it is.)ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 10:14 am
"releasing somethign that shoudl have stayed sealed" - that sounds like black magic or a curse. This would have heavy magic connotations. The if we were to talk about sicknesses and plagues would it not be more interesting to have them been organic? As dunefolks herbalists is the one thing that makes them different to other default factions. So they are not healing with magic but herbs. And an organic plague would really stress out the abilities of the apothecaries and herbalists while in a magical plague there wouldn't be much use for the apothecaries/herbalists.
Now if They were able to create a plague those that did would be viewed as using black magic or be a heretic on par with black magic. Black magic has control of "plagues" and thus why Dunefolk would probably prohibit anything that might be related to the known black magic abilities.
However I am not stating that its a magical plague. Look at the black death no one knew what was going on until later when they found a correlation between rats and those that fallen ill. But it was the fleas that was the cause as they were carriers. Another problem is resources to made treatments and antidotes If magic is not involved than 99% is that you are not going to control a plague and finding a cure/treatment will take many years.
But the treatment you need a steady supply and a easy way in making it if you are going to "heal all" if its a limited amount cure you know it be more chaos. Also it kinda prevents the same "plague" to happen again in the future.
There are many things to explain but I feel that the dunefolk would not allow such actions and view them as heretics if these people had the ability to make plagues. You need to explain the "plague" as there is so much that revolves around plagues. So much information needs to be cleared up.
its fine by me but is itr going to be a random chance of getting it or is it going to affect different units/races differently? just curious as illness affects different people differently and might not affect curtain people.ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 10:14 am What ever story we have and how many, we will make sure that they are gonna be connected in one way or another. Turning people into zombies sounds too much like necromancy and black magic. We however thought of a status effect for the sickness , which could be like weaken the attack status or work like a weaker form of poison which however is contagious - meaning that there is a chance that adjacent units can get the sickness as well.
But the thought of a group of people go into the ruins to explore it for reasons such as trying to figure out what happened or to find lost research. But they find a creature that is or isn't affected by a illness or carries it(you don't need to state in the 1st story that its infected). (if its man made (without magic) you need test subjects...) The MC is the only one to live but is scared mentally possibly infected by it, making him go more crazy. (its not hard to create a illness that affects the mind without magic to explain it.)
2nd story could be the creature is roaming about but a group of people are taking advantage and misleading information. (for all i know they could be poisoning wells and food and calling it a "plague".) the new MC is hired to kill the creature but to also guard his healer friend that is looking to find some kind of cure or treatment. The healer could have heard that people are getting sick and dying as the illness spreads throughout the lands not hard to believe. Have him conduct research in the story it be cool with him explaining that its not magic behind it, or even a plague up to you on how you want him to conduct his research.
But remember to take my suggestions with salt i'm not right with everything and i might leave out details. Go with what you want I'm just pointing out some issues and giving suggestions.
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Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
I think engineering a plague fits neatly into the domain of what you might call alchemy. If you're talking about an actual transmissible disease (either a bacterial or viral infection), that might be an edge case; but like you mentioned later in your post, a plague could also be caused by poison in the water, for example, and manufacturing poison is well within the alchemical domain.Edwylm wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 11:35 pm In all respect and what be the difference between creating a plague and black magic? To me the chances that the Dunefolk would have today's technology in making such things are near null. It is also hard to believe that who ever created the plague would also make the cure. (they be the first to get infected and die. Thus a spread right away no one would know what it is.)
Now if They were able to create a plague those that did would be viewed as using black magic or be a heretic on par with black magic. Black magic has control of "plagues" and thus why Dunefolk would probably prohibit anything that might be related to the known black magic abilities.
Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
I would agree, alchemy is chemistry with a sprinkle of fantasy "magic". I would see issues of alchemists accidentally or by evil actions making a plague and wiping out a entire city. (there would be recordings of making "new plauges" but the creator would die from it themselves before creating a cure.) I would see the Dunefolk placing hard rules against such acts as it be too destructive. But I'm sure things will work out when writing the story.
Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
What can I say about intentions behind my campaign? Well, I intended to make short campaign that can be oneshoted (because I myself don't have much time to play), that is close to people not country, group or anything like that and that keeps people interested using emotions not events (because emotions are way more important for me than anything else when it comes to art). It was of course partially changed (I cant be too attached otherwise this campaign wouldn't happen at all) and it depends on writing a lot (don't worry I won't be the one to write dialogues so worst case scenario is not possible).
Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
So many people were not sure about the 1st story or better said the presentation of the first story.
Yes, it is a different approach then your usual "defeat enemy" campaign as it would focus only on 4 characters (some more some less) and hence is a rather quicker play with it's 6 scenarios planned.
However, only because it is a shorter story (and the rpg elemts are not yet quiet clear - but I won't get too deep into that now because they might get dropped) it doesn't mean it will not offer content. It should be one that - aside of introducing the player to the dunefolk and their lore - also one that has memorable characters. This is achieved with character development.
PastaSaucey finished the dialogues for the first scenario to demonstrate how that campaign could look like in the end:
note: yes, it is a lot fo dialogues and It can be made less dense if wished. But keep in mind this is the first scenario with probably the most with dialogues and least combat and exploration
I hope this might convinces you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, since we all are quiet unsure about Dunefolk Origin. As I elaborate it further in the Lore thread, maybe we shouldn't make such a big deal out of dunefolks origin as it seems to be the one thin most players are still confused about them. Maybe we end up having a vague myth supporting the fact that dunefolk do not really know where they come from (or at least the vast majority do not know - if we want it that way).
The ruins explored in the scenario 4 and 5 of the first story (elaborated in the outlines) could contain scripts or hints or artefact that might clears up some theories about the chaotic events considering the catalytic events, which is the one ultimately reason why Dunefolk mistrust magic. The Lore thread provides a plausible origin which seems rather less interesting then the catalytic event. So if there was some "lore" contained in the scripts, then it should be about that catalytic event.
More about this is elaborated in the most recent post in the thread which I will link to it. But for better understanding I will post the catalytic event here as well.
So basically the ruins could be one of the Athvari cities and (while there are none of the Athvari left, there would be artefacts that elaborate and reference the war between the tribes (which also lead to the first Dunefolk cities). In the Epilogue, Habibula - the trained herbalist - could then bring the new insights to the Luminaries which makes him worthy to be "schooled" or accepted as a Luminary and might reappear in the following campaigns as such.
In summary:
My pitch is to not only make this campaign a mere treasure hunt , but the ruins they discover to have lore included that would be not only for the player helpful but also for dunefolk as well (lore wise). Yumi initially wasn't sure wether this topic about dunefolk's origin (which really is not about their origin but that catalytics event) should be handled about by such a small campaign. But I don't think we need a such a big campaign for referencing this. So we might as well use it here.
Yes, it is a different approach then your usual "defeat enemy" campaign as it would focus only on 4 characters (some more some less) and hence is a rather quicker play with it's 6 scenarios planned.
However, only because it is a shorter story (and the rpg elemts are not yet quiet clear - but I won't get too deep into that now because they might get dropped) it doesn't mean it will not offer content. It should be one that - aside of introducing the player to the dunefolk and their lore - also one that has memorable characters. This is achieved with character development.
PastaSaucey finished the dialogues for the first scenario to demonstrate how that campaign could look like in the end:
note: yes, it is a lot fo dialogues and It can be made less dense if wished. But keep in mind this is the first scenario with probably the most with dialogues and least combat and exploration
I hope this might convinces you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, since we all are quiet unsure about Dunefolk Origin. As I elaborate it further in the Lore thread, maybe we shouldn't make such a big deal out of dunefolks origin as it seems to be the one thin most players are still confused about them. Maybe we end up having a vague myth supporting the fact that dunefolk do not really know where they come from (or at least the vast majority do not know - if we want it that way).
The ruins explored in the scenario 4 and 5 of the first story (elaborated in the outlines) could contain scripts or hints or artefact that might clears up some theories about the chaotic events considering the catalytic events, which is the one ultimately reason why Dunefolk mistrust magic. The Lore thread provides a plausible origin which seems rather less interesting then the catalytic event. So if there was some "lore" contained in the scripts, then it should be about that catalytic event.
More about this is elaborated in the most recent post in the thread which I will link to it. But for better understanding I will post the catalytic event here as well.
Catalytic Event
In summary:
My pitch is to not only make this campaign a mere treasure hunt , but the ruins they discover to have lore included that would be not only for the player helpful but also for dunefolk as well (lore wise). Yumi initially wasn't sure wether this topic about dunefolk's origin (which really is not about their origin but that catalytics event) should be handled about by such a small campaign. But I don't think we need a such a big campaign for referencing this. So we might as well use it here.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
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Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
Hello!
Sorry for being so late to the discussion, but as you now know, I have volunteered to take the lead on writing the script for the fledgling campaign, as well as help with some of the world-building and lore ideas. The document that ghype posted is -- like he mentioned -- only the start of what's potentially a fun and meaningful introduction to the faction.
However, I am totally open to other ideas and am willing to explore them in depth. I think we have the potential to create an amazing campaign with a memorable story and engaging gameplay.
Most of all, I am excited about the changes being made to mainline wesnoth and am eager to start writing .
Sorry for being so late to the discussion, but as you now know, I have volunteered to take the lead on writing the script for the fledgling campaign, as well as help with some of the world-building and lore ideas. The document that ghype posted is -- like he mentioned -- only the start of what's potentially a fun and meaningful introduction to the faction.
However, I am totally open to other ideas and am willing to explore them in depth. I think we have the potential to create an amazing campaign with a memorable story and engaging gameplay.
Most of all, I am excited about the changes being made to mainline wesnoth and am eager to start writing .
Think outside the quadrilateral parallelogram
Re: [Mainline] A Dunefolk Campaign
I'm late to the party, but :
There is practically no correlation between a people not knowing its historical origin and a people "not knowing where it comes from" : i.e, nearly no people know where they actually come from after a few centuries but they all have origin myths nonetheless.
Habibullah means "loved by God". It's probably not a good idea to bring in the game names from a culture without bringing the origin of the name into that culture, and I believe it was agreed that Dunefolk should not be a direct stand-in for orientalist fantasies about the arabic world (even if there are obvious inspirations, but that's not the same)..