Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

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Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Yes
16
59%
No
11
41%
 
Total votes: 27

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Aldarisvet
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Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Aldarisvet » April 11th, 2019, 7:33 am

This poll is just for pure fun but I ask you to answer honestly.
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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Konrad2 » April 11th, 2019, 9:20 am

I feel your poll is missing the point. It doesn't address the idea of 'save-scumming' at all. How does it differentiate between people who reload until the dice go their way and those who reload and try a different strategy? (E.g. I'm voting yes because losing that unit usually shows me that I made a mistake which I could have avoided.)

So yeah, it's a bit funny that you complain about an inadequate poll and then go and create a poll that inadequate in a different way.

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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by otzenpunk » April 11th, 2019, 10:27 am

Yes, that question is kind of stupid. Of course there are units, you are basically not allowed to lose without making the campaign harder or even impossible to beat, be it important loyals or other restricted unit types.

When that happens, I often go on playing and afterwards start the scenario from the beginning, but sometimes I also reload the turn, depending on my current mood and how much time I'd have lost. But when I do the latter, I don't do the same thing and hope for better results, but I recognize, that I've put the unit into a dangerous place and try better. (And when it happens again, I most likely restart the scenario and rethink my whole strategy.)

So I'll click 'no', because I do not usually do this, but just occasionally. ;)
Last edited by otzenpunk on April 11th, 2019, 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by octalot » April 11th, 2019, 10:27 am

I normally delete the last couple of autosaves, take a break AFK, and then try a different strategy. Sometimes from the last remaining autosave, sometimes from the scenario start.

I'm not voting, because neither option seems to fit. Also, how valuable is valuable? I'm a lot more likely to do the above if it was a plot-relevant expendable character.

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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by sergey » April 11th, 2019, 11:02 am

Konrad2 wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 9:20 am
So yeah, it's a bit funny that you complain about an inadequate poll and then go and create a poll that inadequate in a different way.
Konrad2, please don't call our polls inadequate. It is ok to ask questions. You may decide to not answer, or ask to rephrase or clarify.
Aldarisvet wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 7:33 am
This poll is just for pure fun but I ask you to answer honestly.
I have two questions to be able to answer your poll.
1) I didn't noticed that my unit may be attacked by 3 enemis instead of 2 and it was killed. Should it be considered as unlucky RNG outcome?
2) My main character is killed once per 5-10 scenarios because I sometimes expose it to a non zero chance to die. Should it be considered as unlucky RNG outcome?
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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Aldarisvet » April 11th, 2019, 11:11 am

Konrad2 wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 9:20 am
I feel your poll is missing the point. It doesn't address the idea of 'save-scumming' at all. How does it differentiate between people who reload until the dice go their way and those who reload and try a different strategy? (E.g. I'm voting yes because losing that unit usually shows me that I made a mistake which I could have avoided.)

So yeah, it's a bit funny that you complain about an inadequate poll and then go and create a poll that inadequate in a different way.
I absolutely agree with you and I have foreseen such questions (because I myself pointed the same many times in this forums about different reasons for reloads).
But it is not only about 'save-scumming'. It is about that somehow RNG creates so unpredictable strikes of unluck that you can only say: wow, I could not even imagine that something like this could happen. All your defence lines are torn apart because of excessive unluck.

Well, after that you can change a strategy and then all goes ok for some turns until another crisis moment but who can guarantee that it goes ok because you changed a strategy but not just because you are not meeting excessive unluck again? So it can be a save-scumming of a sort, but less blatant. Would it be really possible to play (to advance) all the time taking into account the worst case you can meet? In really hard scenarios, I think no.

Anycase the fact is that reloads serve as a compensation of possible excessive negative RNG results, it nullify them in fact. Even experienced player reloads quite a bit because of it. You would need much lesser reloads in this game if RNG system woudnt be so unpredictable.

So - no excuses. Just accept it is very hard to take a full burden of real RNG in Wesnoth. Even restarting a scenario can be a way to get a better RNG.
sergey wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 11:02 am
1) I didn't noticed that my unit may be attacked by 3 enemis instead of 2 and it was killed. Should it be considered as unlucky RNG outcome?
The question is quite clear I think. It is not about you did not noticed something, it is about excessive unluck. "Did not noticed" however somehow is connected with that because you are not a machine and cannot foresee the consequences of certain chains of events.
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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Caladbolg » April 11th, 2019, 11:59 am

Voted no. I reload when I lose an important unit due to poor placement (i.e., maybe I didn't see an enemy unit, or I forgot to check enemy's mp and though it wouldn't reach me). When I reload, I adjust my strategy, so it's not like I'm reloading the same thing until rng swings my way.

In general, I have no issue with reloading when it turns out that my plan is failing due to poor decisions on my part, because I would also reload such a turn in a purely deterministic strategy game.

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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Konrad2 » April 11th, 2019, 12:20 pm

sergey wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 11:02 am
Konrad2 wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 9:20 am
So yeah, it's a bit funny that you complain about an inadequate poll and then go and create a poll that inadequate in a different way.
Konrad2, please don't call our polls inadequate. It is ok to ask questions. You may decide to not answer, or ask to rephrase or clarify.
I'm sorry, I phrased that incorrectly. I shouldn't have referred to the polls as inadequate, which is probably not the right word for what I meant.
Basically: I think both of you are asking a basic question which does not manage to include the 'big' question about RNG. And Aldarisvet just asked a different basic question, instead of more complete one.
Aldarisvet wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 11:11 am
I absolutely agree with you and I have foreseen such questions (because I myself pointed the same many times in this forums about different reasons for reloads).
But it is not only about 'save-scumming'. It is about that somehow RNG creates so unpredictable strikes of unluck that you can only say: wow, I could not even imagine that something like this could happen. All your defence lines are torn apart because of excessive unluck.

Well, after that you can change a strategy and then all goes ok for some turns until another crisis moment but who can guarantee that it goes ok because you changed a strategy but not just because you are not meeting excessive unluck again? So it can be a save-scumming of a sort, but less blatant. Would it be really possible to play (to advance) all the time taking into account the worst case you can meet? In really hard scenarios, I think no.

Anycase the fact is that reloads serve as a compensation of possible excessive negative RNG results, it nullify them in fact. Even experienced player reloads quite a bit because of it. You would need much lesser reloads in this game if RNG system woudnt be so unpredictable.

So - no excuses. Just accept it is very hard to take a full burden of real RNG in Wesnoth. Even restarting a scenario can be a way to get a better RNG.
In that case I'd like you to know that, while I voted 'yes', I misunderstood the question and would have voted 'no', if I had understood it before.

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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Aldarisvet » April 11th, 2019, 12:27 pm

Caladbolg wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 11:59 am
Voted no. I reload when I lose an important unit due to poor placement (i.e., maybe I didn't see an enemy unit, or I forgot to check enemy's mp and though it wouldn't reach me). When I reload, I adjust my strategy, so it's not like I'm reloading the same thing until rng swings my way.

In general, I have no issue with reloading when it turns out that my plan is failing due to poor decisions on my part, because I would also reload such a turn in a purely deterministic strategy game.
Actually this is an excuse I always write myself.
But did you ever actually accepted RNG's sentence for your valuable unit?
Looks like never. You kinda always think "I've chosen a wrong strategy, I would better reload and try a new one".
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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Caladbolg » April 11th, 2019, 1:17 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 12:27 pm
Actually this is an excuse I always write myself.
But did you ever actually accepted RNG's sentence for your valuable unit?
Looks like never. You kinda always think "I've chosen a wrong strategy, I would better reload and try a new one".
Thank you for telling me what I think, I wasn't aware of these thoughts of mine. Luckily, your perceptions and experience generalize to every Wesnoth player. /s

Yes, I accept rng killing my valuable unit in some cases. Namely, whenever I don't overlook the threat, but take a risk. If I was aware of all enemy units, their reach, damage, etc. and I put a unit in place where it could be killed, that's a calculated risk. Whatever happens, I don't reload in such a case. Also, even in cases where I messed up and exposed my unit to bad rng by accident, but I think I can make do without that unit.

In short:
I reload when my unit gets killed with 4 hits on 70% def because I didn't notice that the attacker could reach it.
I don't reload when my unit gets killed with 4 hits on 70% def after I noticed that the attacker could reach it.
I reload when my only healer dies and the next scenario has no villages (theoretically; if I'd put myself in such a bad spot, I'd replay the previous scenario).
I don't reload when a bunch of my high lvl units die and I have enough gold or recalls to make do without them (even if it'll be harder).

And again, as you completely ignored that part, that is not an rng issue, as I do the same when I'm careless in deterministic games. Any criticism you make on this usage of reload option is just as valid when leveled against your non-rng idea. If reloading to come up with a better strategy is an issue for you, than you have an issue with the whole concept of strategy games. The whole point of them is coming up with better strategies.

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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by sergey » April 11th, 2019, 2:31 pm

My answer to the question is "it depends, but usually I don't reload". I have posted some of my replays to the forums and there are examples when I lost a loyal unit or a unit with an artifact. So I voted "no". I like to play Wesnoth that way. This is a wargame and casualties are expected.

When I started to play Wesnoth I reloaded more often. Generally that was not caused by a bad luck. I reloaded because I didn't understand yet how exactly ZOC works, I didn't know about "Show Enemy Moves" and "Best Possible Enemy Moves" actions, etc.

Theoretically it is possible that a very bad luck makes it impossible to win a scenario. I am ok with that, since it is a very rare case in Wesnoth in my opinion. And I don't play campaigns that can't be won without a good luck.
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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Aldarisvet » April 11th, 2019, 3:48 pm

sergey wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 2:31 pm
My answer to the question is "it depends, but usually I don't reload". I have posted some of my replays to the forums and there are examples when I lost a loyal unit or a unit with an artifact.
Well, such behavior deserves respect. Few would do that. Especially if you play a really hard campaign.
I myself let Burin die in the third scenario of Rise of Wesnoth when I was passing it on Hard with recruiting only mages. I decided that there is no other way to pass this scenario relatively honestly than sacrificing either him or loyal Heavy Infantrymans. Also later I let many high-level mages to die, but I clearly understand that this was acceptable losses. If I was getting unacceptable losses, I always was rolling back several turns and tried "a different strategy".
Caladbolg wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 1:17 pm
Yes, I accept rng killing my valuable unit in some cases. Namely, whenever I don't overlook the threat, but take a risk. If I was aware of all enemy units, their reach, damage, etc. and I put a unit in place where it could be killed, that's a calculated risk. Whatever happens, I don't reload in such a case. Also, even in cases where I messed up and exposed my unit to bad rng by accident, but I think I can make do without that unit.

In short:
I reload when my unit gets killed with 4 hits on 70% def because I didn't notice that the attacker could reach it.
I don't reload when my unit gets killed with 4 hits on 70% def after I noticed that the attacker could reach it.
I reload when my only healer dies and the next scenario has no villages (theoretically; if I'd put myself in such a bad spot, I'd replay the previous scenario).
I don't reload when a bunch of my high lvl units die and I have enough gold or recalls to make do without them (even if it'll be harder).

And again, as you completely ignored that part, that is not an rng issue, as I do the same when I'm careless in deterministic games. Any criticism you make on this usage of reload option is just as valid when leveled against your non-rng idea. If reloading to come up with a better strategy is an issue for you, than you have an issue with the whole concept of strategy games. The whole point of them is coming up with better strategies.
I clearly understand what you write and I could write the same just a month ago.
Moreover, I often reload if I get clearly excessive luck, and reload a turn if I missed that my wounded unit could be reached with a enemy unit but it happens that the enemy unit attacked my wounded unit but did not kill him. Why so? Because I want replays that I upload to look perfect. Especially if it concerns replays where I show how to play my own campaign.

But again, when you roll back several turns and try "different strategy" you do not know exactly if that strategy works because it is good or because you do not meet excessive unluck with that new strategy. Whenever in non-RNG games you can be sure that it is all about strategy.
Caladbolg wrote:
April 11th, 2019, 1:17 pm
I don't reload when a bunch of my high lvl units die and I have enough gold or recalls to make do without them (even if it'll be harder).
And what would you do if a bunch of high lvl units die because of unluck (you know that it is unluck because statistics shows it or just it is strategically obvious when you with very narrow chances lost a key defender that was blocking a way to wounded units) and you cannot do without them?
If you met excessive unluck that prevents you from playing further what would you do? Would you "change a strategy"? Or it is no more than a masked way to avoid that excessive unluck you met?
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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Mawmoocn » April 11th, 2019, 8:28 pm

I will not vote on the poll since it lacks specifics.

I reload at the beginning of the scenario, when I want no deaths, it doesn’t matter if they’re low level, as long as I don’t want them dead, I restart regardless how favourable or disadvantageous the current scenario becomes.

I don’t reload when there’s a very small possibility of achieving 0 death objectives, though there’re some exceptions. Sometimes when I feel that I need more veterans, I restart purely to dominate the current scenario to gain units that can help me do more/absorb damages that are insane for a level 1 to relliably do so.

It feels cheating as I could keep doing it to gain more high level units. If my aim is to play realistically, this is like turning back time to gain absurd advantage against your enemies.

Though sometimes, I end up restarting the whole campaign as I discover new strategies.... and get obsessed performing my best(ugh), which consumes more time... I end up on stopping to play the campaign for the fear that... I didn’t do my best and I’m not playing it as I should.


Reloading at the middle of the scenario is something I rarely do, unless I want test the possibility of a strategy without restarting from the beginning of a scenario.


Most strategies are affected based on goals or motivations. Some techniques become invalid once you lack certain units, knowledge and goals or motivations.

I rarely encounter enemies gaining more advantage than me due to knowledge on how the game works. Sometimes I end up controlling the map due to how I lure my enemies on very unfavourable terrain, with my units preparing to kill them with overwhelming damage. Enemies usually have more numbers than me so it doesn’t happen often.

My plays rarely take luck into account since, I always calculate the highest combined damage the enemy could do to my unit/s. Reading how fast my enemies reinforce, always put me in an advantage, my enemies(A.I.) could never do.

Oh but most of the problems with RNG isn’t really about RNG, It’s about understanding enemy superiority against you. Killing enemy leaders without veterans on very specific scenarios are impossible due to lack of killing power amongst other things that RNG has no control.

RNG is something that could make a battles quick work for you or your enemy.

I do think that Difficulty(Easy, Medium, Hard, Insane) must be explained on what changes become more apparent.

Numeric superiority wins with high probability against few veterans (6:1 ratio) even if it’s level 0 units. Though some exceptions are apparent.

It isn’t really about RNG.

Well that said, I still suck at perfecting my games.

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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by shevegen » May 15th, 2019, 5:46 pm

I think the poll is fine as it is, even if there were a "hidden intent" by the one who wrote the poll. It's a very simple poll.

I answered yes because, firstly, that is the real answer - I do indeed reload. However had, I don't always reload. I
also never use the term "save scumming" - it's pure propaganda-label for a feature. But I think rather than focusing
on the terms, it may be better to describe why people (or at the least I) reload.

I think a huge factor is like ... I have a few hard trained units, and then may make some mistake, such as moving too
far away or where I may get cornered. And then I notice, a few moves lateron, that this is the outcome and my unit
dies. This happens every now and then, largely because I mis-estimated something, so I may tend to reload.

Sometimes I get stuck so much that I need to rethink the start of a scenario because otherwise I can not win. Some
scenarios are like that too.

But I think the number one reason is when I lose an awesome unit.

I do not always do so, though. It depends on many factors, amount of time that I have too. And how much fun the
scenario is. If I have only like 5 units and I lose my best unit, then this is very different to e. g. having 40 units,
many of which are great, and losing just that one unit. So I often accept a loss rather than to just reload. I even
accepted losses of level 4 units (like wraith), mostly because I may tend to have lots of them (in later levels).

So I think it really depends.

I should say that I tend to play on the two highest difficulties and that also makes a big difference.

> I will not vote on the poll since it lacks specifics.

You are of course free to decide whether you want to vote or not. :)

But, no - the poll does NOT lack any specifics. It is VERY simple. It is a simple yes/no question. People assume
a lot about the poll, such as Konrad2, and perhaps he is right since Aldarisvet wrote about similar things in
other threads, but it was Konrad2 who brought in the problematic term "save scumming" here first. And I don't
agree on that term either.

> It feels cheating as I could keep doing it [...]

To me reloading never feels like "cheating". I would not know why either. I guess people have some fixed
idea in their mind when they base their assumption on this.

To me save and reload is purely a feature/functionality that should be available at all times. If others want
to disable that, it is fine if they do so for THEIR games, but I object that they could do so on MY games.

It is different when it is a multiplayer game of course; in these cases, no matter the rules, these should be
very clear, and enforced by the game engine. (Hopefully the rules make sense, but this is secondary -
no matter how, in multiplayer games we need to have the same base when playing as otherwise this
would just lead to problems.)

> If my aim is to play realistically, this is like turning back time to gain absurd advantage against
> your enemies.

I think it really depends a lot on the scenario. Some scenarios require an awkward playing style,
others are easier to figure out. It's a bit like a puzzle. I don't mind that if the puzzle is fun and somewhat
logical but some scenarios seem just plain ... strange. The two strangest ones that come to mind
is drakes in a dwarf cave where the dwarves keep on spawning and you need to move in some
way to either stop that excessive spawning, or move past them; and an even stranger was where
several factions were fighting and you had to use units with this 70% evasion in order to not soak
up too much damage. That one was soooooo frustrating. I had to look at the wiki in order to find
out how to beat it, and it still confuses me.

There are some scenarios that are awesome though; the arabian nights variants and in general
most where the heroes gain new unique abilities - I like the latter part more than default wesnoth.

Sadly there are not that many campaigns that integrate these ... :( (it is the only feature I think is
worth adding to mainline wesnoth by default; I don't even play the default campaigns anymore
because they are not as interesting as the modified variants for me).

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Re: Poll: Do you reload usually if you lost your valuable high-level unit because of a strike of unluck?

Post by Tad_Carlucci » May 15th, 2019, 7:12 pm

I rarely get so attached to a unit I bemoan its loss. That is, of cource, except for a instant-loss unit such as Konrad in HttT.

When I reload, I tend to restart the entire scenario on the supposition that, if I went wrong, I was probably wrong from the get-go.

I might, occasionally, reload a turn or two, to try out different paths. (Should my horses go north, or south, of this stand of trees? Should they charge, or should I send in a Marksman?)

My feeling is that the game includes saving and reloading, so it should be designed taking into account that players can, and will, do just that.

What I don't do is reload to force a victory for a single unit. Either I accept the loss, or I realize I've been on the wrong track and restart the scenario. And I might go back more than one scenario. If, for instance, I find I don't have a Marksman, and I really want a Marksman, I might roll back two, or more, scenario, to develop one.

The reason most people complain about reloading is because it works around the perceived (and false) bias in the PRNG. If you reload often enough, you can force any result you want. Taken to the extreme, you can save before moving each unit and reload over and over, until you're satisfied with the result; rinse and repeat for each subsequent unit. That is scum-saving.

To my mind, the people who complain about the PRNG are actually saying they'd like to scum-save but don't feel it's right. And the people who complain about scum-saving to force a given result, are complaining that their style of play is too boring. It feels the same as when I'm playing Nerf guns in the back yard with my 6 year-old great-grandson. It's great fun so long as he can shoot me; but if I shoot him just once, it's game-over-run-screaming-to-mommy.
I forked real life and now I'm getting merge conflicts.

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