Wings of Victory 0.9.1 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

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Konrad2
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Re: Wings of Victory 0.8.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Konrad2 » December 15th, 2018, 12:10 pm

They certainly did have Gryphon Riders in the 2nd half of SoF, though that is a bit too late for this campaign as well.
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Re: Wings of Victory 0.8.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by SigurdFireDragon » December 15th, 2018, 7:06 pm

Konrad2 wrote:
December 14th, 2018, 10:33 pm
There you go.
Thanks. You really crushed Fire Meets Steel, it wasn't supposed to be that easy. I'll have to do something to adjust the difficulty of the last three scenarios.
Also, it was informative to see a blademaster heavy playthrough.


name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
I am very glad to see a mainline drake campaign finally happening and this one hits the spot. It is all around very well put together; hard to imagine how it was lost for so many release cycles. This is what I noticed playing through 0.8.2:
Thanks
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
And it might have been fun to see the vicious threat-spewing orcs, that are normally contrasted with the "good" and virtuously-speaking typical protagonist races, instead encounter similarly merciless but tersely spoken "lawful" creatures.
I'll consider this.
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
On the default difficulty level (challenging) this was actually quite a bit harder than any other scenario in the campaign. It is a bit of a jolt for the difficulty curve. Maybe the rate the sea serpents spawn could be slowed down.
Noted. It is intended to be hard, but if it's that far above the rest, I might need to drop it a notch, but I do want to increase the difficulty of some of the later scenarios.
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
The "scenario objectives" panel notes that "This scenario takes place during the summer." but I could not figure out how that is relevant to anything.
"Summer schedule in effect" might be a better way for me to put it.
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
The drakes already seem to know what a ghost is. Is this not their first encounter with the undead though, I wonder?
It could very well be, noted.
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
one place where the saurians might have been introduced
I've thought about adding them but hadn't thought of doing it in Elensefar. Thanks for mentioning it.
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
Should elensefar already exist this early in the historical timeline?
It seemed to be an open question, without anything against its existence when I added the scenario. But it would be recently founded, which is what I was going for in the look of the map.

Also, the dialog/story suggestions for Wesmere->Contfrontation are helpful.

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.8.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Konrad2 » December 15th, 2018, 8:10 pm

I'm just adding those because I mostly used those blademasters in the earlier scenarios.
And I added the Heart Mountain Replay to my last post because of the restriction of five attachments per post.
Attachments
WoV-The Hunt replay.gz
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WoV-The Raid replay.gz
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WoV-The Contention replay.gz
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WoV-Islands replay.gz
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WoV-The Three Sisters replay.gz
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Re: Wings of Victory 0.8.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name » December 16th, 2018, 1:13 am

Oops.

It looks like I forgot to post my replays:

replays_0.8.2.zip
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SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 7:06 pm
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
The drakes already seem to know what a ghost is. Is this not their first encounter with the undead though, I wonder?
It could very well be, noted.
Just an idea:

Vank: "These islands, too, are inhabited."
Galun: "Only by animals. We can take this place, and will."
Midnight Queen: "You will be made to serve... Come admire me. Feel my love."
Vank: "Never before have we seen an animal like this one."
Galun: "Perhaps it tastes better than it looks."
Midnight Queen: "Ahhhh! Get off my islands!"
Galun: "No."
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 7:06 pm
name wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 12:59 am
one place where the saurians might have been introduced
I've thought about adding them but hadn't thought of doing it in Elensefar. Thanks for mentioning it.
Looking at the map again, and also the version from HttT, it looks like there are swamps to the north and near the coast. The saurians could be camped there attempting to besiege elensfar in retaliation for haldric's destruction of two of their settlements during tRoW. The saurians' dialogue to the elensfar guard might reference these events while demanding the city pay in gold or blood. Then the drakes intervene, against one side or both. If galun sides with the saurians, he might get to recruit their units, especially useful later on when the player goes up against other drake units in the final battle.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 7:06 pm
Also, the dialog/story suggestions for Wesmere->Contfrontation are helpful.
I forgot to mention that for the Wesmere scenario, there is another campaign tie in possibility, this time with An Orcish Incursion. It took place around this same time and involves the first orcish war upon the elves of wesmere forest. There could be an ongoing battle between orcs and elves in this scenario.

Seeing still more of all this turmoil the great continent is embroiled in might also help galun to see the spiral path is what is best for his flight (and thus taking them into seclusion in the northern mountains). The violent expansionism of the orcs and the chaos it causes with others could be see by galun as foreshadowing of the ultimate fate the straight path will bring about between drakes.
josteph wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 11:06 am
name wrote:The "scenario objectives" panel notes that "This scenario takes place during the summer." but I could not figure out how that is relevant to anything.
It means the time of day schedule has 3 day turns and 1 night turn.
Huh, that is really strange. It might be best to switch over to the default schedule that most campaigns use?

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.8.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by SigurdFireDragon » December 18th, 2018, 6:26 pm

Konrad2 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 8:10 pm
I'm just adding those because I mostly used those blademasters in the earlier scenarios.
And I added the Heart Mountain Replay to my last post because of the restriction of five attachments per post.
Thanks
name wrote:
December 16th, 2018, 1:13 am
my replays
Thanks
name wrote:
December 16th, 2018, 1:13 am
Looking at the map again, and also the version from HttT,
The version I used for Elensefar is from Liberty: Unlawful Orders, made to look younger. I'm not sure why I didn't use HttT's Seige of Elensefar, I'll have to take a look at it again.

Thanks for the saurian suggestions about Elensefar. We'll see what happens when I get around to adding the saurians. Had been thinking about adding them in Wesmere.

I don't think I can go with the AOI tie-in, as it's set in 8YW. Thanks for mentioning it though. Between that and when Elensefar is founded, I'm leaning toward pushing the start date of WoV back to 4 or 5YW so it works better with both.

Thanks for the feedback, name.

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.8.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name » December 19th, 2018, 5:51 pm

SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 18th, 2018, 6:26 pm
I don't think I can go with the AOI tie-in, as it's set in 8YW. Thanks for mentioning it though. Between that and when Elensefar is founded, I'm leaning toward pushing the start date of WoV back to 4 or 5YW so it works better with both.
Perhaps one more thing to consider is that Galun learns how to reach the great continent by capturing the leader of an orcish expedition ship bound for there, which the dialogue implies is just one of many passing through recently.

According to the timeline there are two separate orcish invasions of the great continent by sea:
Timeline of Wesnoth wrote:2 YW

Orcs, following the ships fleeing from the Green Isle, begin to arrive on the Great Continent.
These Orcs are defeated by Haldric's forces.
Some of the Orcish survivors flee back to the Green Isle, others move to attack the Elves.
King Haldric helps the Elves fight the surviving Orcs.
Timeline of Wesnoth wrote:8 YW

A second wave of Orcs arrive from the Green Isle; these Orcs begin claiming large portions of the northern Great Continent for themselves.
Erlornas of Wesmere is involved in the first direct elvish clash with orcs (An Orcish Incursion takes place in 8-9YW).
Haldric I publicly repudiates the Pact he spoke with the Elves, refusing to give aid.
So if WoV did take place around 8YW, that would give enough time for Elensfar to have been established after the first orcish invasion was beaten and Galun could have interrogated a member of the second orcish invasion, to learn the path to the great continent.

Upon arrival, Galun's Flight would also potentially encounter the war between orcs and elves in Wesmere and/or encounter orcs in the north engaged in battle against dwarves or trolls. I guess the reason I mention this, is some of the later scenarios could be improved by having more politically complicated situations than one versus one scenarios, like more of the three way free-for-all scenarios that you see early on in "The Hunt" and "The Three Sisters", but potentially grander.

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.8.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Konrad2 » December 29th, 2018, 1:42 am

Why did the Drakes not know about the Undead? Didn't the Undead follow the Humans beyond the ocean, passing by/landing on Morogor?
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Re: Wings of Victory 0.8.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name » December 29th, 2018, 4:33 pm

Konrad2 wrote:
December 29th, 2018, 1:42 am
Why did the Drakes not know about the Undead? Didn't the Undead follow the Humans beyond the ocean, passing by/landing on Morogor?
That is true, the drakes might have encountered them then. The drakes had been already defeated/pushed off that particular island by Haldric's fleet, but Lady Jessene did mention the drakes would recover to defend the island against any other passersby. Hard to say if that happened soon enough to encounter/resist the orcish and undead ships that Lich-Lord Jevyan was leading across the ocean in swift pursuit of the Ruby of Fire. Also hard to say if the undead would even disembark on the island (since they do not require provisions?) or if that task would be delegated to the orcish host instead.

Also, the undead Galun first encounters in WoV, would seem to be remnants of the elf-dead (that Haldric defeated) which predate the arrival of the Lich-Lords on the Great Continent. So it seems that undead do sometimes occur "in nature" by themselves and it is then not impossible an undead situation could have arisen on the drakes' home islands in the past.

So I guess it makes sense either way. The drakes may or may not already have encountered undead.

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.9.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by SigurdFireDragon » December 29th, 2018, 5:59 pm

Version 0.9.0 is up. :)
Now with more meat!


Changes:
01 The Hunt
Drake fighters are now part of the hunting pack
Added Rabbits
MicroAIs now handle movement for all the animals

02 The Raid
Orcs now use some wolf riders
Turn limit slightly increased
Death sound from orc leader prevented

03 The Contention
Difficulty adjustments, including increased difficulty on the highest level
Removed die sounds as units are just out of play

06 The Three Sisters
Improved reference to island inhabitants

08 Wesmere
Terrain touchups

09 Foothills
Terrain touchups

10 Heart Mountains
New map & adjusted difficulty
Use of microai for a side
Increased variety of meat
Spoiler:
11 Fire Meets Steel
New map & adjusted difficulty
Fixed all sky drakes being removed from recall, spy is now just one sky or hurricane drake

12 Confrontation
New map & adjusted difficulty
Kerath now has guards, one of which is the spy
Battle should no longer feel cramped

13 Epilogue
Added an edict

Misc
Bumped start date to 5YW
use of standardized turn limit adjustments; hard has a lower limit in all cases now
Silenced some log warning about lack of #undef in a spot


Replies:
Noted about the orc waves, at the moment I'm going with an isolated early ship in the second wave.
name wrote:
December 29th, 2018, 4:33 pm
Also, the undead Galun first encounters in WoV, would seem to be remnants of the elf-dead (that Haldric defeated)
I didn't intend them to be remnants of the ones that Haldric defeated, just a random elf from some point in wesmere's past that became a lich and moved into the foothills of the heart mountains.

I'm still undecided if this should be the drake's first meeting with the undead.

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.9.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name » December 30th, 2018, 7:14 pm

Looking forward to replaying the campaign with all these improvements when I get the chance.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 29th, 2018, 5:59 pm
Increased variety of meat
Spoiler:
They say a varied diet affords one strong wings and a fearsome manner.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 29th, 2018, 5:59 pm
12 Confrontation
[...]
Battle should no longer feel cramped
Thanks. :)
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 29th, 2018, 5:59 pm
I didn't intend them to be remnants of the ones that Haldric defeated, just a random elf from some point in wesmere's past that became a lich and moved into the foothills of the heart mountains.
Sorry, I should clarify I meant the Midnight Queen from The Three Sisters scenario. Her ghost is the first undead creature you encounter in Wings of Victory. In the Rise of Wesnoth, she still had her corporeal form of an undead elf (and then Haldric destroys her, so in WoV she returns in a non-corporeal form, which is a fun bit of inter-campaign continuity).
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 29th, 2018, 5:59 pm
I'm still undecided if this should be the drake's first meeting with the undead.
A consistent thing about the drake characters through WoV, is they can barely distinguish between humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, and others. So it is possible they might not recognize undead for what they are, or initially care. Similarly, they may not yet have any understanding of magic or any belief in the "supernatural". So maybe when encountering undead, Galun calls the hunt as though these creatures were any living animal. Only once the battle is over and Vank tries to take a bite does he realize: "Wait, there's no meat on these bones... and the marrow is putrid!" With Galun responding: "These creatures are only good for sport. This entire hunt has been a waste of time." Maybe the drakes end up referring to (what most races call) "the undead" as "the unpalatable". ^_^

Or maybe it's a stupid idea, I don't know...

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.9.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by josteph » December 31st, 2018, 11:51 am

name wrote:
December 30th, 2018, 7:14 pm
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
December 29th, 2018, 5:59 pm
I'm still undecided if this should be the drake's first meeting with the undead.
A consistent thing about the drake characters through WoV, is they can barely distinguish between humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, and others. So it is possible they might not recognize undead for what they are, or initially care. Similarly, they may not yet have any understanding of magic or any belief in the "supernatural". So maybe when encountering undead, Galun calls the hunt as though these creatures were any living animal. Only once the battle is over and Vank tries to take a bite does he realize: "Wait, there's no meat on these bones... and the marrow is putrid!" With Galun responding: "These creatures are only good for sport. This entire hunt has been a waste of time." Maybe the drakes end up referring to (what most races call) "the undead" as "the unpalatable". ^_^

Or maybe it's a stupid idea, I don't know...
I would expect that sapient carnivores would be able to recognize that skeletons aren't edible even before killing them and trying to eat them. Maybe something like this could be done for the trolls encounter, though? Trolls bodies decay to stone when they die, so Vank and Galun could comment on that. ("Will our fire work on these walking rocks" before the battle, "Their carcasses are better as walls for our villages than as food" after the battle.)

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.9.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name » January 2nd, 2019, 12:19 am

josteph wrote:
December 31st, 2018, 11:51 am
I would expect that sapient carnivores would be able to recognize that skeletons aren't edible even before killing them and trying to eat them.
Well even inanimate skeletons contain nutritious marrow prized by many carnivores. Plus the movement, speech and aggressive acts of undead creatures definitely would make them seem like living animals until you had the opportunity to study them.

Of course, this does not preclude a sapient carnivore from noticing something is really unusual about a creature that appears to be missing so many important organs. Or which smells like it died quite some time ago.
josteph wrote:
December 31st, 2018, 11:51 am
Maybe something like this could be done for the trolls encounter, though? Trolls bodies decay to stone when they die, so Vank and Galun could comment on that. ("Will our fire work on these walking rocks" before the battle, "Their carcasses are better as walls for our villages than as food" after the battle.)
Not a bad idea, imho.

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.9.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by josteph » January 2nd, 2019, 2:11 pm

name wrote:
January 2nd, 2019, 12:19 am
Well even inanimate skeletons contain nutritious marrow prized by many carnivores. Plus the movement, speech and aggressive acts of undead creatures definitely would make them seem like living animals until you had the opportunity to study them.

Of course, this does not preclude a sapient carnivore from noticing something is really unusual about a creature that appears to be missing so many important organs. Or which smells like it died quite some time ago.
Good points.

Do drakes have a good sense of smell? (We have a shortage of olfactory lore, don't we?)
name wrote:
January 2nd, 2019, 12:19 am
josteph wrote:
December 31st, 2018, 11:51 am
Maybe something like this could be done for the trolls encounter, though? Trolls bodies decay to stone when they die, so Vank and Galun could comment on that. ("Will our fire work on these walking rocks" before the battle, "Their carcasses are better as walls for our villages than as food" after the battle.)
Not a bad idea, imho.
Hmm. Maybe we could sprinkle some troll carcasses around, as in the MP map Caves of the Basilisk? That is, 0HP trollish units that have died and are now permanently petrified (as lore says). That would add both tactical challenge (like impassable mountains) and atmosphere and also serve as an excuse for someone to deliver the "let's build our village walls out of troll carcasses" line in the victory event.

Sigurd, in S10
Spoiler:

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.9.1 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by SigurdFireDragon » January 8th, 2019, 5:30 pm

Version 0.9.1 is up

Changes:
02 The Raid
Lowered difficulty

03 The Contention
Lowered difficulty

05 Islands
Significantly lowered difficulty
More specific reference in dialog

10 Heart Mountains
Dialog display improvements

11 Fire Meets Steel
Dialog display improvements

12 Confrontation
Dialog display improvements
Dialog Tweak
Added last breath event for the spy


Replies:
name & josteph:
There's some good ideas to work with for the undead when 09 Foothills is overhauled, thanks. I'd say I'm leaning toward this being the drakes first encounter with the undead (aside from comments about a ghost in 06 Islands)

Unsure about the troll suggestions.

@josteph: I'll see about the suggested S10 changes when I get to playing that scenario again.


What's Left To Do:
Smooth out some story and dialog
Add the Saurians
Proper graphics in places ie, journey map, etc.

01->05: hopefully only dialog/story adjustments at this point
03: Implement a version of {TURNS_OVER_ADVANTAGE} for declaring a winner at time over
(with a possible bonus for defeating the enemy leader)
06 Islands: maybe balancing.
07 Elensefar: maybe needs some balancing, maybe other adjustments???
08 Wesmere: might need some balancing, seems otherwise ok
09 Foothils: major revisions for cave play and better dialog/story
10->12 likely to have balancing/map tweaking
10 is intended to be relatively easy-medium
11 is a big battle intended to allow the player to
Spoiler:
12 is a big battle intended to allow the player to
Spoiler:
13 maybe some story revisions

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Re: Wings of Victory 0.9.1 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name » January 13th, 2019, 6:05 am

SigurdFireDragon wrote:
January 8th, 2019, 5:30 pm
05 Islands
Significantly lowered difficulty
More specific reference in dialog
I think this is the right call since even gliders are much less efficient on the water than haldric's mermish were in the same situation. In previous versions of this scenario, I generally wound up, after swiftly killing the nearest naga king, retreating all my drakes to the starting sand bar to lure the naga onto dry land where a reasonable kill to loss ratio could be achieved.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
January 8th, 2019, 5:30 pm
There's some good ideas to work with for the undead when 09 Foothills is overhauled, thanks. I'd say I'm leaning toward this being the drakes first encounter with the undead (aside from comments about a ghost in 06 Islands)
This should offer the most interesting dialogue opportunities for this scenario.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
January 8th, 2019, 5:30 pm
Smooth out some story and dialog
One thing perhaps worth considering with regards to this, is to keep open and even hint at interesting possibilities for future drake campaigns and drake appearances in other mainline campaigns. That is, it may not be just as simple as galun's spiral path enclave establishing a sustainable isolationist colony while the expansion minded straight path drakes of morogor remain there out of weakness or fear from their recent defeat. But instead hint that this is only the beginning of drake arrivals to the great continent and drake pressure on the region will soon swell as time advances.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
January 8th, 2019, 5:30 pm
07 Elensefar: maybe needs some balancing, maybe other adjustments???
Saurians! ^_^
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
January 8th, 2019, 5:30 pm
11 is a big battle intended to allow the player to
Even the gliders are a bit slow on the consistently frozen terrain tiles. Do you think there should be small sporadic patches of non-frozen terrain to enhance movement somewhat?
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