Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

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The_Gnat
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by The_Gnat »

doofus-01 wrote:
November 18th, 2019, 4:37 am
Allrightalrightalrightalright, I tried to make them more feminine, without using sprite boobs though I did resort to big hair a tiny bit.
:D :D :D
doofus-01 wrote:
November 25th, 2019, 4:33 am
I've updated the sunderer line, image below. I'm not so sure about the lance of the cataphract (not depicted in the sprite below), that's a big thing to suddenly introduce.
Awesome! I might keep some green on the lvl 3, but then again, maybe not.
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Aldarisvet
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by Aldarisvet »

I see new images in the database.

http://units.wesnoth.org/1.15/mainline/ ... l#Dunefolk

In addition to mentioned above, Swordmaster, Blademaster and Paragon are also reworked (they are clear samurais now).
Which I really like because I do not like that 'fat with thin legs' Zerovisus's style for high-level units.
Burner line also was reworked and I like it too. Because before they somehow were looking like terrorists. Now sprites looks more 'toy-like' I would say, less frightening. This is especially for lvl1. And lvl3 reminds me of Warhammer 40k somehow.

Praise doofus ;)


Edit: Though I found that I have the feeling that something is wrong with new Sunderer and new Cataphract. Somehow they are not sitting but flying above their horses.
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shevegen
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by shevegen »

> In addition to mentioned above, Swordmaster, Blademaster and Paragon are also reworked (they are clear samurais
> now). Which I really like because I do not like that 'fat with thin legs' Zerovisus's style for high-level units.

I like the whole dune folks in general, but since you mentioned samurai - I always felt that some orc pictures look
like samurai, in particular the one with the big sword. I guess for some artwork it is harder to display what is meant
with a unittype; other units don't seem to have that problem. For example, the trolls always looked like trolls to
me (troll shaman is a bit weird but not a big deal).

> Because before they somehow were looking like terrorists.

Hmm. I always thought they looked like kids throwing oil flasks set on fire. :P

I don't really mind it - I think it was fine before any change anyway. Not that I mind any change either. IF Id' have
to pick just one change, though, I'd think the orc models in the main campaign would need a rework. The others
don't seem too bad to me in general.

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AOW
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by AOW »

I like the Dunefolk red tassel helmet and bow&melee weapon concept, the Dune Scorcher lv2-lv3 reference to early firearms may be more acceptable (although there are already dwarven analogs).

such as Hand cannon(Chinese:手铳/Arabic:Madfa), lv2 animation can be a scatter effect, while the lv3 weapon is larger and fires small handheld projectiles.
>This Hand cannon definition is vague in English and Japanese. I don't know if you can find enough pictures.The videos in this web page can be easily distinguished https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%89%8B% ... fr=aladdin

Also, I wonder if the mix of cultures will make it more difficult for the creators to make campaigns, making it difficult to find entry points?

*ps: and I read some chinese classical literature:A weapon for guarding city,the Song Dynasty (960-1279)about the first oil flamethrower 猛火油柜 :eng: ,but I'm not sure if it's happening in other cultures, and hand cannon, which is a popular prototype of firearms in Eurasia, is still a conservative good practice.
where a complete half-wit will inflict their confusion on the rest of the world, if necessary fabricating facts as theygo along. confuses me.

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doofus-01
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by doofus-01 »

Aldarisvet wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 11:28 am
Edit: Though I found that I have the feeling that something is wrong with new Sunderer and new Cataphract. Somehow they are not sitting but flying above their horses.
I tried to make their upper body going above the rest to have them leaning forward in an aggressive pose, rather than sitting back on the horse like a LEGO figure. Maybe it wasn't successful, there's still a lot of work to do on those guys, so it'll get revisited.
shevegen wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 7:18 am
IF Id' have
to pick just one change, though, I'd think the orc models in the main campaign would need a rework.
I remember your thoughts on this issue, and I disagree. There can be an undead or a monster that fits that role if needed. The orcs fit well as an 'other' that is hostile and often seen as evil, but the truth isn't so black & white.
AOW wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 1:18 pm
Also, I wonder if the mix of cultures will make it more difficult for the creators to make campaigns, making it difficult to find entry points?
As long as we don't insist on historical accuracy, but just use it as inspiration, I'd say anything goes.
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AOW
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by AOW »

doofus-01 wrote:
December 15th, 2019, 3:02 am
AOW wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 1:18 pm
Also, I wonder if the mix of cultures will make it more difficult for the creators to make campaigns, making it difficult to find entry points?
As long as we don't insist on historical accuracy, but just use it as inspiration, I'd say anything goes.
You seem to have misunderstood the meaning of this passage.

I mean, if I'm a campaign creator, looking at a hodgepodge without "art optimization", I'll be in a kind of confusion about where to start my work. In other words, can we get campaign creators interested in dunefolk in an intuitive and concise way? So they can Activation inspiration successfully create the dunefolk campaign. :P
where a complete half-wit will inflict their confusion on the rest of the world, if necessary fabricating facts as theygo along. confuses me.

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ghype
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by ghype »

Hello everyone. First I wanted thank everyone who kept this going in my absence. Given the circumstances I was able to check in again and see what is going on. I was not aware that our sprites needed such big revisions, the reason why I want to comment on Doofus his work.

First of all, no doubt are your sprites quality wise much more defined then mine. So thank you, I am glad you found time to give them a try.
I am just not quiet sure wether my sprites lacked concept or just quality.
Generally speaking, I cannot say anything against your sprites, but I feel like we are now facing the same problem as before. My goal was to visually unify Dunefolk as they many artist contributed to them. Now we have a fresh newly drawn sprites in the probably best quality of sprites you can currently find in mainline Wesnoth.

The question is wether you will rework all of them or not? Because if not, we are at same point as before we started to rework the ... which is having different art styles of different qualities ...


Burner.png
Burner.png (18.43 KiB) Viewed 1789 times


The lv1 Sprite was long overdue so it is just a blessing what you did. I just not sure how that basket and stick could be used. I mean I can imagine, but I'd like to know specifically how that weapon design was changed for the Burner line. Similar question for the Lv3. There is no combuster anymore, just a long tube?
The lv3 sprite is well drawn as well except that I don cannot understand it's face any more. Is that his face or is that veil? Or is a metal mask? It kinda looks like metal mask but really it look like any of the 3 so I couldn't tell which exactly it is. Also the shading is so smooth on the weapon and hand that the transition be them is getting unclear. Also the rope that holds the tube is maybe too thick.
Another thing that I am missing is the difference between the male and female version. That difference wasn't big in my versions, but at least it was visible


Captain.png
Captain.png (19.49 KiB) Viewed 1789 times


The revisioned Soldier looks awesome. Same goes for the Captain lv2 and lv3.
Maybe that one pixel on the Lv1 Soldier on the Helmet is too bright.
It feel like the lv2 Captain could have at least 2 pixel of a longer blade. It feels like a short sword.
The lv3 has that red TC thing under the blade and I cannot really tell what that is supposed to be. Is it part of the cape? If yes , why is the rest golden?
Also, wether it is part of the cape or not, the cape on it self feels very short. I'd elongate it a bit.


Blademaster.png
Blademaster.png (28.21 KiB) Viewed 1789 times


The Revisions of these units surprised me probably the most as they completely changed the concept of the units. I can see what you were going for but It now looks more like Samurai then anything else. And due dropping the shield and due to the stance the armour is not visible, this unit appears less armoured then it should. When animating the attacks the body armour should become visible I guess. But furthermore, dropping the 2nd blade make it difficult to explain the 2 blade attacks while one is weak and marksman and the other stronger and not. adding a 2nd holstered blade could fix that (either on the hip or on the back). But generally I think it looks too much like a Samurai. The helmet I think has one or two too many white pixels (- that goes for all lv ups).
The lv4 Sprite actually is really good if it wouldn't have the exaggerated Samurai Shoulderpads (same as lv3). The lv2 Shoulder Pads are ok in my opinion. Another thing I tried to avoid is that lv ups have the same stance as the current lv. Maybe giving the lv2 a different stance would help that.
Lastly, I don't know what is happening with their face area. I got similar problems as with the Lv3 Burner. I assume this time however it is a blank shaved face? Alltough the herbalist is also blank shaved, on this unit it feels off, I'd rather give him closed helmet or face mask like lv1 burner.


Healer.png
Healer.png (19.64 KiB) Viewed 1789 times


These are amazing revisions. Very clean and smooth. Except the lv1 Sprite is missing, right?
What are those areas representing under their right hand. On the lv2 it is brown and on the lv3 is green. Where the potions were located on my sprites. Are those bags? Or just cloth pieces?
On the lv3 you kept the gold chain but it is kinda attached to nothing. It has 1 px of a chain which it could be attached to, but they look like to be over the cloack. So I provided a version how it could look like if you have a proper chain, not a floating amulet. Also the weapon hat some very edgy corners which kinda bothered me, I removed 1 or two pixel to make it look rounder. The version I provided should not represent a final revision of my comment just a visualisation on how it could look like in the end.


CTP.png
CTP.png (31.55 KiB) Viewed 1789 times


You cleaned up the Rider pretty well. However the mount looks weird now. I didn't knew that the horse needed to be revised. Now the horse indeed looks like a donkey and is undersized in comparison to the rider. Further more the steering string now is kind of floating under the horses head. Question is again, was a revision really needed? The rider looks awesome, I'd just put that on top of the standart mainline horse I used for my sprite.
Similar problems for the lv2 and lv3 goes. The armours are good (maybe the lv2 head wear for the horse is a bit weird) but they all fall short as the horses appear smaller then wesnoth horses and hence the riders look oversized. I'd just take the armour elements and put them over the standart mainline horses I used in my sprite.
The lv2 stance of the rider again holds the horse on the mane? The stance on my lv2 sprite at least grabbed it to the steering string/knob (or what ever they are called). The generally the armour of the lv2 are looking very clean except that you reduced the shoulders. They look less intimidating now when the sunderer and CTP are supposed to be Dunefolks more fearsome units. The Maces look awesome but you dropped the bow would be nice to have some appearance in the sprite. If not a bow then at least a quiver some where on the horses armour. The Lance Is missing on the lv3 sprite. The stance you currently have would be good for the base frame for the mace attack but I think main base frame should be with the lance.




Again, thank you for your revisions. Do not take my words as harsh criticism. I just am numerating my thoughts on how I worked so far on the rework some of your revisions just don't go in hand with things that were publicly discussed and agreed upon. Which doesn't mean we can adapt concepts to what you did, but at least some explanation would be welcome.

Thanks for your time

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doofus-01
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by doofus-01 »

ghype wrote:
March 27th, 2020, 5:17 pm
The question is wether you will rework all of them or not? Because if not, we are at same point as before we started to rework the ... which is having different art styles of different qualities ...
The level-2 burners looked good to me, I don't currently have plans to change them, though that may change when I get around to animating them.
ghype wrote:
March 27th, 2020, 5:17 pm
But furthermore, dropping the 2nd blade make it difficult to explain the 2 blade attacks while one is weak and marksman and the other stronger and not. adding a 2nd holstered blade could fix that (either on the hip or on the back).
That would be one way of dealing with it, but that makes animations just that much more difficult. Another way is to consider the two attacks to be different techniques from the same hardware. Even if there is only one set of attack frames, the timings and offsets can be different.
ghype wrote:
March 27th, 2020, 5:17 pm
Except the lv1 Sprite is missing, right?
What are those areas representing under their right hand. On the lv2 it is brown and on the lv3 is green. Where the potions were located on my sprites. Are those bags? Or just cloth pieces?
Level 1 was lower priority, but it is on the list, yes. Those things are supposed to be bags, but cloth pieces would be fine too. For almost all these sprites, I grabbed the colors that were already present.
ghype wrote:
March 27th, 2020, 5:17 pm
You cleaned up the Rider pretty well. However the mount looks weird now. I didn't knew that the horse needed to be revised. Now the horse indeed looks like a donkey and is undersized in comparison to the rider.
Yes, the horse is supposed to be different from the loyalist horses: viewtopic.php?p=648784#p648784
The terrain defense is different enough.
ghype wrote:
March 27th, 2020, 5:17 pm
gain, thank you for your revisions. Do not take my words as harsh criticism. I just am numerating my thoughts on how I worked so far on the rework some of your revisions just don't go in hand with things that were publicly discussed and agreed upon. Which doesn't mean we can adapt concepts to what you did, but at least some explanation would be welcome.
No problem! No offense taken, no offense intended.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by Kwandulin »

I just wanted to chime in shortly and say that these new sprites look gorgeous! I am really looking forward to see them in the game. Good stuff!

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ghype
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by ghype »

Hell again,

So I let some time pass and came back to your sprites and I got now much more familiar with them. I especially got a change of heart once I saw how much time you put into already animating some of them and especially making the new falconer units. I just want to quickly comment on some of the things I said in my last post and provide alternatives to what I suggested as far as I can provide one.



For the burner I couldn't do much as I am still not quiet sure how their weapons work now. I let the fingers off of this one until I got a better perspective on what changed for this units.


Blademaster-1.png
Blademaster-1.png (39.71 KiB) Viewed 1249 times

doofus-01 wrote:
March 30th, 2020, 12:53 am
Another way is to consider the two attacks to be different techniques from the same hardware. Even if there is only one set of attack frames, the timings and offsets can be different.
I am totally fine with that. It saves time and could work just as fine.
As said last time, I felt like the swordsman, bladesmaster and paragon all had an alien vibe as there was no facial structure to be seen. So I provided a version for each with the standart Dunefolk face, where the Paragon has a longer beard as they were in my initial sprites too. In order to give it more variety, I also provided an alternative with a mask (which i took from the cataphrakt) as that was in my version too. Choosing the mask for the lv3 while the lv4 has no shouldn't be a problem as the lv4 paragon remains a campaign unit.
Last note, if you'd change the pose of the swordsmand or bladesmaster, I'd change it for the lv2, just so it will show more armour.


Captain-1.png
Captain-1.png (22.24 KiB) Viewed 1249 times


For the captain I just provide another version with 2 to 3 pixel longer blade as it really felt short.


Healer-1.png
Healer-1.png (27.91 KiB) Viewed 1249 times

doofus-01 wrote:
March 30th, 2020, 12:53 am
Level 1 was lower priority, but it is on the list, yes.
I did a version for the lv1 based on your lv2 and lv3. If you are ok with this one, you could do the other lv2 , the Alchemist, instead of.
doofus-01 wrote:
March 30th, 2020, 12:53 am
Those things are supposed to be bags, but cloth pieces would be fine too.
I thought so, In the end I am ok with it. However, I provided optional variants with shields as I did them initially. I did not do them perfectly, they are just to show how they could look like if you are happy to try it our or others find them good. I do not insist in those optional variants. What I though like to consider is the lv3 luminary with the gold chain as commented last time


CTP-1.png
CTP-1.png (47.12 KiB) Viewed 1249 times


As promised, here is where the lv1 has a "steering holding" (or what ever they are called) which now are connected to the head of the horse.
For the lv2 and lv3 I mounted bigger shoulders (the ones from the captain). Now they look much more intimidating. I also did the shoulder for the already animated frames for the sunderer and I would do the same for the cataphract frames. I didn't come around to try something with the lv2 horses armour but maybe I will. It shouldn't stop you to further animate them if you want.



If I get positive feedback of them, I will do a PR where they can be futher investigated.


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doofus-01
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Base Units

Post by doofus-01 »

ghype wrote:
March 31st, 2020, 9:45 pm
As said last time, I felt like the swordsman, bladesmaster and paragon all had an alien vibe as there was no facial structure to be seen. So I provided a version for each with the standart Dunefolk face, where the Paragon has a longer beard as they were in my initial sprites too. In order to give it more variety, I also provided an alternative with a mask (which i took from the cataphrakt) as that was in my version too. Choosing the mask for the lv3 while the lv4 has no shouldn't be a problem as the lv4 paragon remains a campaign unit.
I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement in the "as is" version, but I honestly don't see much of a difference with the edits. (Admittedly, the forum background doesn't help.) If there is some concensus that the edits are an improvement, they can certainly be included, in the base image at least.
ghype wrote:
March 31st, 2020, 9:45 pm
I did a version for the lv1 based on your lv2 and lv3. If you are ok with this one, you could do the other lv2 , the Alchemist, instead of.
I have a new (minimally animated) version I just committed. Most of the "foot soldiers" are at least touched by https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/comm ... 22152e5e25

Horse-mounted units will be for another time.
Kwandulin wrote:
March 30th, 2020, 6:04 pm
I just wanted to chime in shortly and say that these new sprites look gorgeous! I am really looking forward to see them in the game. Good stuff!
Thanks. It's been a group effort: ghype did initial edits (from Sleepwalker's revisions), I revised/added (the higher-level mage units by Sleepwalker are not forgotten). Hejnewar is looking at the stats for MP balance. There will probably be further significant adjustments before 1.15 transitions to a release candidate for 1.16.
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