Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

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The_Gnat
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 9th, 2018, 12:33 am

ghype wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 11:52 pm
Actually thought about something similar, melee fire ranged arcane - since yeah, burner would useless otherwise.
I think the high price, low life, and scouting role the Jinni has will make him quite a different role from the Burner. Along with that if the Burner gets a different type of melee than it will be more versatile.

I am not totally against arcane because it would be very unique and useful. But it is far more effective than fire in most cases and absolutely destroys drakes so I see it as easily unbalancing the match ups. The only way it would be fair against drakes is if it is weak againat fire. And that would through off the theme.
Edwylm wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 10:29 pm
some ideas for descriptions
Nice I really like that

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 9th, 2018, 1:52 am

For the record, I think a fire melee for a jinn is quite reasonable.
name wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 5:47 pm
Gryphons, ghosts, drake gilders, etc., cannot stand up to the dedicated mermish or naga units fighting in water for very long. But they can switch over to fighting on land if they are outnumbered in the water (and vice versa). Then, the naga and mermish cannot follow, cannot participate in the land battle and can only hold the watery line while costing upkeep.
...what? Nagas are amphibious. They're much better on land than the merfolk, for example.
Edwylm wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 10:29 pm
i would have it as lvl1 is naga fangs, lvl2 is naga cobra. than lvl3 naga viper
I don't think it makes sense for a cobra (a specific type of snake) to level up to a viper (a generic type of snake, which includes cobras and basically all venomous snakes).
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 9th, 2018, 4:18 am

For the naga line, how about:

Naga Poisoner > Naga Afflictor > Naga Scourge ?
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 9th, 2018, 4:31 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 1:52 am
I don't think it makes sense for a cobra (a specific type of snake) to level up to a viper (a generic type of snake, which includes cobras and basically all venomous snakes).


"which includes cobras and basically all venomous snakes" sorry to say but that is false not all venomous snakes fall under Viperidae.

however in naga mythology nagas are linked to king cobras which inspired the naga mythology. reason why i used cobra is mainly because they create a "hood" a clothing design that assassins use.

viper can be referenced to Echidna. which in possible wesnoth naga lore could be that this naga line fallows a ancient teachings or they believe they are offspring to the Water Serpent which might explain the use of poisons. Or its naming could possible be used due to the creatures are already known to be feared by other races.

its not that far off to name themselves after something already existing/used.

the same could go for a fighter turning into a warrior they are basically the same thing... but this was only a suggestion and a little insight as to what i was thinking about at the time. but who says that the naga line needs to have 3 levels.

another idea you could have "stinger" "poisoner" then "cobra/viper"

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 9th, 2018, 5:01 am

Edwylm wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 4:31 am
"which includes cobras and basically all venomous snakes" sorry to say but that is false not all venomous snakes fall under Viperidae.
  1. It's not necessarily the case that the common name "viper" is 100% equivalent to the scientific name "Viperidae". Common names in general are less precisely defined.
  2. The use of "basically" leaves a space open for exceptions anyway, so the existence of venomous snakes outside Viperidae doesn't falsify my statement. ("basically all" is similar in meaning to "most", though perhaps stronger.)
  3. None of this rebuts the argument against a cobra (a fairly specific term) levelling into a viper (a much more generic term).
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 9th, 2018, 6:10 am

well one could simply switch the 2 so the cobra is lvl3 then if someone wants a 4th lvl they can call it "king cobra naga"

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 9th, 2018, 9:15 am

The_Gnat wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 12:33 am
high price, low life, and scouting role the Jinni has will make him quite a different role from the Burner.
guess you are confusing this units role. it's mp will be probably capped at 6mp so it hardly can be called a scout compared to the max 9 mp of rider.

if balanced well, arcane will be just fine on ranged. not like DF has an hard time allready winning over Drakes.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 4:18 am
Naga Poisoner > Naga Afflictor > Naga Scourge ?
tbh, i prefer these names over Edwylm's suggestions

as long as there are no visual attributes to the sprite reminding to an actual cobra, i find the other names just missleading and should be reserved for actual snakes or cobras in future.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 9th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Alright, the naga line I think we're pretty settled on now then, so I'll add them once the sprites are ready.

Also, there was some discussion about the Dunefolk's mushroom defense being improved - is that still under consideration?
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 9th, 2018, 6:12 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 4:53 pm
he naga line I think we're pretty settled on now then, so I'll add them once the sprites are ready
The_Gnat wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 7:28 pm
Looks great Awesome to see this becoming a reality. Also note I believe this naga should be a liminal unit. That avoids adding three alignments, strengthens the liminal deployment and makes more sense than a lawful naga
Awesome :D Also is it going to be liminal?

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 4:53 pm
there was some discussion about the Dunefolk's mushroom defense being improved - is that still under consideration
I feel like that is one of those thematic versus game play issues. I would be interested in hearing the story behind that idea and since I don't believe it makes a huge difference in game play it might not be worth changing.
ghype wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 9:15 am
guess you are confusing this units role. it's mp will be probably capped at 6mp so it hardly can be called a scout compared to the max 9 mp of rider.
6 MP flying is considerably faster than 5 MP on the ground but you are correct it is not going to be a scout. I would be interested in hearing what other people thought about arcane?

Also the Rider is being buffed to 8mp right?

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 9th, 2018, 6:25 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 6:12 pm
Also the Rider is being buffed to 8mp right?
it should be
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 9th, 2018, 6:30 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 6:12 pm
Awesome :D Also is it going to be liminal?
Yes - I've been updating my previous post with the few changes suggested so far.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 9th, 2018, 6:53 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 6:12 pm
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 4:53 pm
there was some discussion about the Dunefolk's mushroom defense being improved - is that still under consideration
I feel like that is one of those thematic versus game play issues. I would be interested in hearing the story behind that idea and since I don't believe it makes a huge difference in game play it might not be worth changing.
I think the idea is that mushrooms are used a lot in MP maps in weird ways, so it actually would make a difference outside of campaigns. But I could be wrong.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 6:30 pm
Yes - I've been updating my previous post with the few changes suggested so far.
Eh, how do you expect people to know that you're updating your post...? (Also, which post?)
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 9th, 2018, 7:29 pm

Yeah, mushroom groves are definitely not a campaign-only terrain or something.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 6:53 pm
Eh, how do you expect people to know that you're updating your post...? (Also, which post?)
https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.ph ... 95#p636112
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm

So here are the revisions of the jinn. There seems to be indecision on whether its ranged attack should be fire or arcane. I gave it fire for now, as that will best fit the balance reports of the DF being possibly too strong against drakes and distinctly too weak against loyalists. Loyalists units tend to be 20% resistant to arcane but no resistance to fire, while the drakes boast 50% fire resistance but (negative) -30% arcane resistance. Other stats were rearranged to fit it again being of a purely "hot" rather than cold tolerant nature.


Jinni

Gold cost: 25

Move points: 6
No terrain penalties.

Default terrain defense: 50%
Sand: 70%
Cave: 60%
Frozen Defense: 30%
Swamp Defense: 30%
Shallow Water: 20%
Deep Water: 10%

Hit points: 28
Pierce: +50%
Fire: +50%
Cold: -50%
Arcane: -10%

Alignment: Lawful or Neutral
Melee: Fire 2x6 Magic
Range: Fire 16x1 Magic (alternatively Arcane)

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 6:11 pm
This wouldn't be quite true of the naga line's stats I posted above - they would not be as effective as land units, but they could certainly leave the water and fight on land without giving free xp away either.
To be honest, those stats probably take the power of the unit too far, from both the perspective of general balance and it making sense as a naga unit. The very high terrain defenses, combined with the new positively-imbalanced liminal acting as a damage booster, combined with a low price for what you get. The negative resistances used to try and counter balance the strengths also seem odd for a naga (maybe because of their thick scaled appearance).
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 1:52 am
]...what? Nagas are amphibious. They're much better on land than the merfolk, for example.
A ghost, drake glider or even gryphon rider are much more viable on land than (the mainline) naga, as said naga is firstly balanced to be a water specialist (that is less water-specialized than the mermish units which are the most so).

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 11th, 2018, 4:18 am

name wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 6:09 pm
those stats probably take the power of the unit too far, from both the perspective of general balance and it making sense as a naga unit.
I agree to some extent. I have been running tests with the Naga unit and have found it to be reasonably affordable and effective with current naga movement costs and defences. The new proposed defences are interesting but I feel that they miss the point of the naga as a water dwelling creature and are almost too encouraging for land use.

As I understood the purpose is water control, if that purpose has changed or been adapted that is fine but I believe it should be ensured that it doesn't become OP.

I would not support a price increase. Also I don't really like the whole model of increasing defences and worsening resistances. I would personally prefer the current naga defences and movement costs were used. With perhaps minor adjustment on sand? I understand thematically all the changes can be explained but I believe balance is the top focus. Perhaps reduce the melee to 5 damage and remove the defences?

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