Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 7th, 2018, 4:50 pm

ghype wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:20 pm
I'd like the Jini to be a floating unit, but 10%/20% on water would be a big problem for water control. That was the whole point of adding new units.
I'd probably set it to 6 or tops 7 without traits. so the rider (which now has 8mp) remains as main scout.
It depends on whether the Jinni alone is responsible for water control. I was assuming water control would be shared between it and either a naga or a second floating unit, such as a carpet rider (a unit concept I would also like to explore).

This is similar to how merman hunter + wose share responsibility for rebel's water control or how glider + all other drake and saurian units together form the drake faction's water control. To a more limited extent ghost + bat and dark adept work together to do something similar for undead. The knalgan's combination of gryphon rider + footpad attempts the same but is possibly the worst at it.

It is important that the jinni, for its cost, tends to lose to specialized water units since it is effective on land as well. In the water, the current idea is for its combination of mobility in that environment and damaging melee/ranged magic attacks (which no other unit this water-mobile has) be used to support a second more tanky (for its cost) but similarly water-capable unit. Keep in mind that so long as the jinni is not pinned (which the tank helps screen against) it can retreat quickly back to land.
ghype wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:20 pm
resistences really depend also on the hp you give unit. your suggested hp makes this unit surviving pretty hard. It closer to ghost which has 50% to all physical. neutral arcane can be interesting, but -50% cold or fire is too much. Any magician could kill this Jini in one or two hits.
It depends on the availability of magician with the right damage type. Vulnerability to cold only makes you vulnerable to UD and to some extent, the fragile saurian augur. But I see what you are saying, so lets move its HP up to 24 to 28 so it is in the fragility range between the mage and dark adept.
ghype wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:20 pm
What instead of we make "fire-jini" we just make a simple Jini which uses maybe cold dmg type instead of fire, which would be way more beneficial.
Well alright, let's try that. We should keep in mind though that this means the factions this unit counteracts will be quite different though. For example, mermish have a 20% cold resistance and undead have positively enormous cold hardiness.


So how about this revision:

Jinni
Gold cost: 25

Move points: 7
No terrain penalties.

Default terrain defense: 50%
Sand: 60%
Cave: 60%
Swamp Defense: 40%
Shallow Water: 20%
Deep Water: 10%

Hit points: 28
Pierce: +50%
Cold: +50%
Arcane: +10%

Alignment: Neutral or Chaotic
Melee: Cold 2x6 Magic
Range: Cold 18x1 Magic

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 7th, 2018, 9:11 pm

name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 4:50 pm
I was assuming water control would be shared between it and either a naga
I definitely agree. After testing the naga I believe it would be beneficial for a shared role. The naga holds up quite well against alive melee enemies because of the poison which is effectively +8dmg, but it is particularly vulnerable to ranged units so I would support a second more ranged focused attacker. I also believe that their is definitely a role that the Jinni could fill in the faction so I would support it being added as well.
name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 4:50 pm
Move points: 7
No terrain penalties.

I like the idea of a cold Jinni. But I would put its movement at 6 because 7 without penalties is in most cases faster than the Dune Rider, even if it is buffed to 8mp.

Furthermore a scout and magician combined together will definitely be OP which I will point out further.
name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 4:50 pm
Alignment: Neutral or Chaotic
Melee: Cold 2x6 Magic
Range: Cold 18x1 Magic
Overall I support your idea for the Jinni but it's attack looks notably more power than the thunder guard for the dwarves. I say that because magical is massive on a single strike attack. I would recommend a slight nerf perhaps to 16-1.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 7th, 2018, 11:29 pm

Well if you want you could have a level 1 Jinni that advances into 3 branches, fire, cold, arcane. each one having different alignments and other aspects cold=Chaotic, arcane=Neutral, fire=Lawful and not so fond of traveling over water.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 7th, 2018, 11:31 pm

Should the Dunefolk really have 3 alignment types though? With the Falcon's removal, they just have lawful and liminal, unless I missed something.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 8th, 2018, 1:18 am

name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:40 am
Neutral resistance to arcane.
Based on lore, I'd suggest a moderate vulnerability to arcane (maybe 10%).
ghype wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:20 pm
I'd like the Jini to be a floating unit, but 10%/20% on water would be a big problem for water control. That was the whole point of adding new units.
I'd probably set it to 6 or tops 7 without traits. so the rider (which now has 8mp) remains as main scout.
In my opinion it makes a lot of sense for their defence to plummet on water, since they're of the fire element.
ghype wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:20 pm
What instead of we make "fire-jini" we just make a simple Jini which uses maybe cold dmg type instead of fire, which would be way more beneficial.
Well, that would no longer be a jinn then. Jinn are made of "smokeless fire" according to Arab myth. Nothing was every said about the existence of "cold" counterparts. (Dungeons and Dragons does add jinn of the other three classical elements, but that has nothing to do with the base myths.)

To be quite clear, I do not support the addition of a cold jinn.
name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 4:50 pm
It depends on whether the Jinni alone is responsible for water control. I was assuming water control would be shared between it and either a naga or a second floating unit, such as a carpet rider (a unit concept I would also like to explore).
I think a carpet rider might be interesting but am not sure I would want to see it as a core part of the faction.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 8th, 2018, 6:07 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 1:18 am
Defence to plummet on water, since they're of the fire element
Then it would not be able to supplement the role of water control and would not be as valuable to the faction.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 1:18 am
Nothing was every said about the existence of "cold" counterparts
True but I do not believe we are limited by that, also I believe cold would be more valuable to the faction then fire.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 1:18 am
To be quite clear, I do not support the addition of a cold jinn
I don't think the idea is refined enough as of yet but I am not against the idea of a cold jinni the in principle.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 11:31 pm
Should the Dunefolk really have 3 alignment types though? With the Falcon's removal, they just have lawful and liminal, unless I missed something.
I agree they shouldn't have three alignments. As originally I suggested the naga would be liminal and I believe that liminal and lawful should be the only alignments to increase viability.
Edwylm wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 11:29 pm
3 branches, fire, cold, arcane. each one having different alignments and other aspects cold=Chaotic, arcane=Neutral, fire=Lawful
I think this would be very interesting but not ideal for the factions balance. But the extra two advancements could be implemented after the main balanced line had been achieved.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 8th, 2018, 9:36 am

Specific stat proposals for the Naga units:

Code: Select all

name=Naga Poisoner
hp=28
xp=40
cost=16
moves=7
alignment=liminal

attack1:
    name=spear
    specials=poison
    type=pierce
    strikes=2
    damage=6

attack2:
    name=bow
    type=pierce
    strikes=3
    damage=3

resistances:
    arcane=0%
    blade=-10%
    cold=0%
    fire=0%
    impact=-20%
    pierce=-10%

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,1
    coastal reef=70%,1
    deep water=60%,1
    flat=40%,2
    forest=50%,3
    fungus=50%,2
    hills=50%,3
    mountains=40%,3
    sand=50%,1
    shallow water=70%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=50%,1

Code: Select all

name=Naga Afflictor
hp=40
xp=80
cost=36
moves=8
alignment=liminal

attack1:
    name=spear
    specials=poison,firststrike
    type=pierce
    strikes=3
    damage=7

attack2:
    name=bow
    type=pierce
    strikes=3
    damage=5

resistances:
    arcane=0%
    blade=-10%
    cold=0%
    fire=0%
    impact=-20%
    pierce=-10%

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,1
    coastal reef=70%,1
    deep water=60%,1
    flat=40%,2
    forest=50%,3
    fungus=50%,2
    hills=50%,3
    mountains=40%,3
    sand=50%,1
    shallow water=70%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=50%,1

Code: Select all

name=Naga Scourge
ability=skirmisher
hp=55
cost=50
moves=9
alignment=liminal

attack1:
    name=spear
    specials=poison,firststrike
    type=pierce
    strikes=4
    damage=8

attack2:
    name=bow
    type=pierce
    strikes=3
    damage=7

resistances:
    arcane=0%
    blade=-10%
    cold=0%
    fire=0%
    impact=-20%
    pierce=-10%

terrain defense,movement costs:
    castle=50%,1
    coastal reef=70%,1
    deep water=60%,1
    flat=40%,2
    forest=50%,3
    fungus=50%,2
    hills=50%,3
    mountains=40%,3
    sand=50%,1
    shallow water=70%,1
    swamp=70%,1
    village=50%,1

For the names I'm mostly aiming for something more interesting that "assassin", though I'm not sure if maybe these feel right or have overly negative connotations.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 8th, 2018, 11:58 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 1:18 am
Well, that would no longer be a jinn then. Jinn are made of "smokeless fire" according to Arab myth. Nothing was every said about the existence of "cold" counterparts. (Dungeons and Dragons does add jinn of the other three classical elements, but that has nothing to do with the base myths.)
ok if thats how the current Jini was mainlined then we should respect this. Hence I do not comment further on my proposal regarding a cold Jini.

but what if he had a moderate dmg arcane on ranged and we keep his melee fire? He would remain a fire Jini. It would make him differ also more with the other mainline Jini. This way DF Jini would counter less drakes and humans, but would have a small boost against elves/orc/undead which are some of the harder matchups.

If a Jini with full fire attacks is the more popular choice, then I don think there is any need for the burner line, right?

About the naga: I like that his movetype differs from the other nagas. It would then make sense that his sprite is less armoured then the orc naga?
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Xalzar » December 8th, 2018, 2:42 pm

Naga Blight, Scourge
I think these names are more suggestive of undead or units which utilize particularly lethal biological/chemical weapons.
I don't know if the lore and the stats of these nagas really reflect that.
Naga Butcher
It evokes in my mind the image of quite a messy unit, more akin to a bloodthirsty ogre.
I haven't seen the sprite, but with the skirmisher ability and its weapons this unit reminds me more of a ninja than a sorta "Jack the Ripper".
Jinni
Being said that the original mythos should not restrict our creativity too much, I agree that a cold Jinni makes less sense than a fire or arcane one.
Though I agree that having two fire-based units it's redundant, and I see two solutions:
1) They are redundant but alternative: in this case the Burner would be used in campaigns where Jinni are not present and there is the need to replace their role (even if they are not exactly congruent);
2) I can see the Jinni having a fiery body (with high resistance to fire) but only arcane attacks. Their inability to use fire could be explained with the necessity to not extinguish its very own body.
If we really want a weak fire attack could be present as a melee defend-only, which explains the burning damage melee units are subjected to while trying to attack it. Or else, Jinni are made of a magical fire which doesn't burn (which has some precedents in mythos).

About water control, if the Jinni has low defence on water I can see its magical attacks being a deterrent to enemy water units, and its nimbleness permits escape when the situation becomes hairy (maybe skirmisher could be appropriate for such being, but there's the risk to overload this unit).
The Knalgan faction was mentioned to have a less efficient water control with gryphons and footpads, and in lore and gameplay I can see it's quite fitting; Dunefolk I think could work the same: a "standard" water control (such as adding a water unit, even though I love nagas) maybe it's not so appropriate, so maybe a "special" type of water control is all they need (after all, the faction needs some weaknesses).

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 8th, 2018, 5:47 pm

*
It sounds like a cold jinni is out, so we are back to fire and/or arcane attacks for it.

Xalzar wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 2:42 pm
Though I agree that having two fire-based units it's redundant, and I see two solutions:
1) They are redundant but alternative: in this case the Burner would be used in campaigns where Jinni are not present and there is the need to replace their role (even if they are not exactly congruent);
2) I can see the Jinni having a fiery body (with high resistance to fire) but only arcane attacks. Their inability to use fire could be explained with the necessity to not extinguish its very own body.
Well I have to say, the jinni deserves to keep a fire melee, way more than the burner does. While the burner would likely catch himself on fire trying to fight within reach of a sword (or even dagger in some cases), the naturally fiery jinni would have no such concern.

Further, the historical people(s) the DF are largely based on launched ceramic grenades of crude oil, iirc. Such a ranged attack could be justified for the burner, but not melee. If the burner remains in the faction he should get a believable "normal" damage type melee attack and hurl such ceramic incendiary grenades as a ranged attack.
Xalzar wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 2:42 pm
The Knalgan faction was mentioned to have a less efficient water control with gryphons and footpads, and in lore and gameplay I can see it's quite fitting; Dunefolk I think could work the same: a "standard" water control (such as adding a water unit, even though I love nagas) maybe it's not so appropriate, so maybe a "special" type of water control is all they need (after all, the faction needs some weaknesses).
If I understand what you say correctly to mean that you think DF should have more of terrain-generalist floating / flying units that perform weaker water control for the DF, rather than have a more water-dedicated naga unit, then I agree. I think as a mobility oriented faction, like the drakes, the DF would naturally balance more towards winning through shifting their less efficient but faster forces from one battle where the enemy has rallied to another where the enemy is least prepared.

Gryphons, ghosts, drake gilders, etc., cannot stand up to the dedicated mermish or naga units fighting in water for very long. But they can switch over to fighting on land if they are outnumbered in the water (and vice versa). Then, the naga and mermish cannot follow, cannot participate in the land battle and can only hold the watery line while costing upkeep.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 1:18 am
Based on lore, I'd suggest a moderate vulnerability to arcane (maybe 10%).
Such would be the most straight forward thing to do as arcane is consistent throughout the game as being an attack most effective against creatures with a "magical" aspect. And the greater this aspect, generally the more vulnerable they are to arcane.

The reason I threw out this idea the jinn might have an actual resistance to arcane, is to suggest the lore possibility that they are so clever, and so (collectively) ancient in their wisdom, they might have discovered how to attain mastery over their own magical nature in some ways unknown to even the lich lords (even though the latter has uncovered secrets to immortality which the jinn, in turn, lack).

That said, I will update the stats to the slight vulnerability you suggest as it is most consistent and intuitive with the game overall.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 9:11 pm
But I would put its movement at 6 because 7 without penalties is in most cases faster than the Dune Rider, even if it is buffed to 8mp.
[...]
I say that because magical is massive on a single strike attack. I would recommend a slight nerf perhaps to 16-1.
Alright, but do keep in mind this is the highest cost unit at the moment. So unless we bring that down too, recruiting a jinni will be similarly straining as recruiting a gryphon rider.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 6:07 am
Then it would not be able to supplement the role of water control and would not be as valuable to the faction.
That is likely not the case. The jinni's mobility over water combined with powerful magic attacks, both melee and ranged together, give it plenty of power against water units and the ability to retreat to land if it is not pinned. Also, available recruitable water units tend to have a very limited range of attack types, which the jinni may end up being resistant to (for example, its existing pierce resistance statistic versus mermish units).

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 8th, 2018, 6:11 pm

ghype wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 11:58 am
About the naga: I like that his movetype differs from the other nagas. It would then make sense that his sprite is less armoured then the orc naga?
The naga unit is supposed to be more assassin-like, IIRC, hence the improved movetype/defenses but lower hp and negative resistances to physical damage compared to the naga fighter. So less armor would make sense.
Xalzar wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 2:42 pm
Naga Blight, Scourge
I think these names are more suggestive of undead or units which utilize particularly lethal biological/chemical weapons.
I don't know if the lore and the stats of these nagas really reflect that.
Naga Butcher
It evokes in my mind the image of quite a messy unit, more akin to a bloodthirsty ogre.
I haven't seen the sprite, but with the skirmisher ability and its weapons this unit reminds me more of a ninja than a sorta "Jack the Ripper".
For Blight and Scourge, they were meant to be more interesting that, say, calling the unit a "Naga Poisoner", and there's also already two other Assassin units(orcs, humans), so that option seemed overused. Butcher was meant less as "messy" and more "merciless", which could be reflected in its unit description.
name wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 5:47 pm
Gryphons, ghosts, drake gilders, etc., cannot stand up to the dedicated mermish or naga units fighting in water for very long. But they can switch over to fighting on land if they are outnumbered in the water (and vice versa). Then, the naga and mermish cannot follow, cannot participate in the land battle and can only hold the watery line while costing upkeep.
This wouldn't be quite true of the naga line's stats I posted above - they would not be as effective as land units, but they could certainly leave the water and fight on land without giving free xp away either.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 8th, 2018, 7:28 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 6:11 pm
Butcher was meant less as "messy" and more "merciless", which could be reflected in its unit description
IMO Butcher is not the best name. I don't think it sounds powerful enough compared to other lvl 3 lords, grands, and masters. Also I think it doesn't really suit this stealthy poison type unit. I don't think it matters very much but perhaps. Predator, Ravager, Raider, Striker or some other name more suiting could be found. :)
name wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 5:47 pm
Well I have to say, the jinni deserves to keep a fire melee, way more than the burner does.
I agree and would be happy with the burners melee attack being changed as long as he remains in the faction.

As for the Jinni I think fire melee and fire ranged would be quite interesting!
name wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 5:47 pm
Also, available recruitable water units tend to have a very limited range of attack types, which the jinni may end up being resistant to (for example, its existing pierce resistance statistic versus mermish units).
Yes very true.
name wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 5:47 pm
Alright, but do keep in mind this is the highest cost unit at the moment. So unless we bring that down too, recruiting a jinni will be similarly straining as recruiting a gryphon rider.
I think that it's high price point is justified considering its nearly universal role in benefiting the faction. I do agree though that depending on testing it may need a slight price reduction.
ghype wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 11:58 am
arcane on ranged and we keep his melee fire?
The main problem is the unbalance that arcane would bring to the faction. For example arcane destroys drakes. I don't believe that is a match up change that we want to make.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 9:36 am
Specific stat proposals for the Naga units:
Looks great :D Awesome to see this becoming a reality. Also note I believe this naga should be a liminal unit. That avoids adding three alignments, strengthens the liminal deployment and makes more sense than a lawful naga.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Caladbolg » December 8th, 2018, 8:23 pm

I support the addition of new Naga units, but I don't like the names. I think 'poisoner' is a good fit, if a bit direct, as it hasn't been used yet in mainline. 'Striker' would definitely be good. Dunefolk could also call their Naga mercenaries by names of snakes, indicating their use of poison and serpentine appearance. So names like 'Adder' or 'Viper' could also be on the table. Maybe Poisoner -> Striker -> Viper?

As for how spears are poisonous... I quite like the idea of Naga having poisonous fangs, but not using them in battle as it puts them at extreme risk. But if they secrete their own poison, and Dunefolk make some kind of an injector spear (which might be plausible as they are somewhat mechanically inclined), the Naga could have spears which literally inject their own poison into the target from a safe distance.

As for the Jinn, I agree with no terrain penalties and low def on water. That way they aren't primary water control, but can chip in if needed, and they provide access to mountains which other DF scouts don't really have. However, I'd limit their mp to 6. As The_Gnat mentioned, 7 without penalties makes for a very good scout, even superior to Rider in many cases, and adding any extra role over that would make it too op. Some arcane vulnerability is also in order, and I'm against cold or arcane attacks. I'm ok with Burner losing his fire melee if Jinn would have fire melee.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 8th, 2018, 10:29 pm

i would have it as lvl1 is naga fangs, lvl2 is naga cobra. than lvl3 naga viper


some ideas for descriptions
lvl 1 description: Their spearheads resemble that of fangs. Craftsmanship of these strange weapons is one that no other race has figured out. nagafolk use material from the sea using it as a vessel to house deadly poisons. This allows the nagas to poison enemies both underwater and above water.

lvl 2 description: naga cobras are inspired from the snakes that live on land. they match the speed of which a cobra strikes. though this is not what they are famed for. their deadly poison that lays in their spears is capable to bringing down the mightiest of warriors. when they impale their fang like spear into their foe it releases the poison within.

lvl 3 description: Venom capable of killing the mighty sea serpents with the speed to pierce though the toughest of armor.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 8th, 2018, 11:52 pm

Xalzar wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 2:42 pm
2) I can see the Jinni having a fiery body (with high resistance to fire) but only arcane attacks.
Actually thought about something similar, melee fire ranged arcane - since yeah, burner would useless otherwise.
Also your depiction of such a Jini is pretty unique and would differ from the mainline Jini.
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