[SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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MiddleTwin
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[SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by MiddleTwin » October 14th, 2017, 2:35 pm

I've been making a single player goblin campaign for a while now, and it's finally at the point where I mostly need a lot of playtesting to help polish it, so I'm posting a thread here. I haven't uploaded this to the add-on server yet have uploaded it to the 1.12 server, but 1.13 players can find the repo on github at https://github.com/JGelfand/The_Goblin_Rebellion/, or download a .zip directly from here.

The following is a somewhat unnecessarily lengthy monologue about various things I was trying to achieve, and how I tried to achieve them. TL;DR is that a typical goblin's life is nasty, brutish, and short, and I wanted to make the campaign reflect that.

TGR’s basic philosophy:
Spoiler:
Some other gameplay specifics and the reasoning behind them includes:
Spoiler:
While it’s possible that I’ve forgotten to mention something here, I think I’ve covered most of the important bits. Since I’m going for a contrast to traditional mainline content, I generally want any deviations from mainline style to intentionally and carefully done (White and black are clearly opposites, while white and banana are not). Therefore, if there’s something in the campaign that I didn’t list above as an intentional deviation from mainline style that jumps out at you as not being very traditional Wesnoth, please tell me. Special things that I’d appreciate any playtesters looking out for in this regard include:
Spoiler:
Other notes:
  • The custom unit illustrations were made by a friend. They (understandably) didn't want to do animations, and I'm not skilled enough to do animations on my own. (The placeholder art for the trebuchet that I made before they replaced it is below, if you're curious)
    Image
Last edited by MiddleTwin on October 16th, 2017, 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Currently writing The Goblin Rebellion, an sp campaign for version 1.12 and up.

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Poison
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by Poison » October 14th, 2017, 3:36 pm

I get this:

Code: Select all

The following add-on had errors and could not be loaded:
    /home/myname/.local/share/wesnoth/1.12/data/add-ons/The_Goblin_Rebellion/_main.cfg

Please report this to the author or maintainer of this add-on.

Details:

    Macro/file '~add-ons/The_Goblin_Rebellion/maps/BloodBath.map' is missing
    at ~add-ons/The_Goblin_Rebellion/scenarios/bloodbath.cfg:6
        included from ~add-ons/The_Goblin_Rebellion/_main.cfg:57
The campaign doesn't load.
BfW 1.12.5 and Ubuntu 12.04 LTS

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MiddleTwin
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by MiddleTwin » October 14th, 2017, 4:00 pm

Thanks. It looks like Windows doesn't care about case-sensitive path names, but linux does. Should be fixed now.
Currently writing The Goblin Rebellion, an sp campaign for version 1.12 and up.

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Inky
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by Inky » October 14th, 2017, 7:10 pm

That's an interesting campaign idea- attack of the massive level 0 goblin hordes! :twisted: I liked the stabber units, they really fit the goblin playstyle of sending them to almost certain death to do a bit of extra damage.

I played a few scenarios (Wesnoth 1.12.6, hard), some really quick notes:
Spoiler:
Attachments
TGR-Redirection_replay.gz
scenario 3
(30.31 KiB) Downloaded 129 times
TGR-The_Last_Straw_replay.gz
scenario 2
(24.37 KiB) Downloaded 122 times
TGR-Meat_Shields_replay.gz
scenario 1
(25.29 KiB) Downloaded 128 times

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MiddleTwin
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by MiddleTwin » October 14th, 2017, 7:47 pm

Thanks for the bug reports and HUGE thanks for the balance comments. I'm a pretty terrible player, so my strategy for balancing these things on hard mode is to make the scenario too hard for me to beat, and then hope that it's also hard for decent players. Having an actually good player give me some replays is therefore really really important.
Currently writing The Goblin Rebellion, an sp campaign for version 1.12 and up.

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Inky
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by Inky » October 14th, 2017, 9:14 pm

Just finished the last scenario, which was much easier than I expected.
Spoiler:
Cool campaign, thanks for making it! Moral of the story is, don't mess with goblins 8)
Attachments
TGR-Finale_replay.gz
Scenario 4 (final)
(39.9 KiB) Downloaded 121 times

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MiddleTwin
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by MiddleTwin » October 14th, 2017, 9:24 pm

Yeah, the last scenario currently has no difference between Easy and Hard. My current plan for changes is making you start right in the middle with a small batch of units that includes your trebuchets, and forcing you to hold the enemies off as your aged leader makes their slow and stately escape.

Thanks for playing! Maybe some day, far in the distant future, I will actually manage to make the campaign challenging for you :).
Currently writing The Goblin Rebellion, an sp campaign for version 1.12 and up.

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Poison
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by Poison » October 14th, 2017, 11:25 pm

My feedback in spoiler:
Spoiler:
Last edited by Poison on October 14th, 2017, 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MiddleTwin
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by MiddleTwin » October 14th, 2017, 11:31 pm

Wow. I never even considered the possibility that the leader dying wouldn't immediately cause a loss. How did I never consider that? :shock:
Also thanks for the nitpick on the description formatting. I'll try to put out a quick patch for this stuff along with the hard mode change for the last scenario tonight.
Currently writing The Goblin Rebellion, an sp campaign for version 1.12 and up.

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Poison
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by Poison » October 14th, 2017, 11:39 pm

MiddleTwin wrote:Wow. I never even considered the possibility that the leader dying wouldn't immediately cause a loss. How did I never consider that? :shock:
Also thanks for the nitpick on the description formatting. I'll try to put out a quick patch for this stuff along with the hard mode change for the last scenario tonight.
I'm thinking that new players will find it more useful, I actually personally like your description more but I think that the "ambush" thing (the loss of movement) should be mentioned. Also for the stabbers:
Spoiler:

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MiddleTwin
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by MiddleTwin » October 15th, 2017, 12:34 am

As far as the stabbers go, my in depth reasoning on move speed, defenses, and attack values is as follows:
Spoiler:
I'll probably end up doing the health nerf, since they should be easier to kill than spearmen on average, but I think that the current movement value is fine and that the current 8-2 attack values are fun to play with in a way they wouldn't be even if a 4-4 attack wasn't a stealth nerf thanks to weak.
Last edited by MiddleTwin on October 15th, 2017, 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Currently writing The Goblin Rebellion, an sp campaign for version 1.12 and up.

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Poison
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by Poison » October 15th, 2017, 8:14 am

Point 1 (move speed): You are right, not that important, so fine by me.
Point 2: (defenses): Now for the following lines I have no proof, you would need to keep track of idk 80.000 encounters or sth to do so, unfortunately BfW doesn't keep track of hits taken or sth similar, but my feeling is that 50% defense is wayyy better than 40%, they are not close at all. Against enemies with 3 hits the feeling (whatever that means) and my expectation from all the BfW battles that I remember is that with 40% most of the times you'll be hit twice, quite often 3 times, very rarely once and almost never 0 times. With 50% however all I remember is that 1 hit go way up and 0 hits are quite frequent too (with 3 hits being rarer), so gameplay wise unless my memory is very selective 50% looks much stronger too me. I don't think the way you've used the math reveals this, it's somewhat deceptive, hits are more important of a stat that damage, maybe some other player can comment on this or some dev has collected data but personally when I saw the def I was like "whoa how will these guys die". Also 70% in my book is very evasive, you just don't get hit often so it kinda screams "village holder" instead of doing more frontline battle.
Point 3 (attacks) and 4 (ohko): You forget retaliation, 8-2 reminds me of HI, stabbers will give serious damage back before they die, even more than spearmen maybe (suppose we know for sure that both units will die after being hit 3 times in a row from opponent; they will both give 1 or 2 hits in retaliation so the spearman wil never get his 3rd strike resulting to him dealing 6 or 12 damage in contrast to 8 or 16 of stabber !!! - if he (the stabber) was a 4-4 /3-5, he would give a meager 4 or 8 / 3 or 6 ), if you also consider the fact that they are also cheaper it could actually lead to not use spearmen at all (or use fewer to do the hunting job instead of the actual skirmishers !!! ) and go for "fair(er)" battle, when you are attacking you can choose your target, so why do you need to ohko someone, you'll give him many strikes (or die trying) and take some back the goblin way. Imho stabbers look like the ultimate fighting frontline defensive supertank unit that has an irrelevant skirmisher atm. My suggested changes would be to either keep 8-2 (or 7-2 maybe - and use imprecise) and somehow reduce retaliation, maybe add a weapon special called "untrained" or "reckless" or similar (can't think of a good name) that reduces the damage you deal only when defending to 6-2/5-2/8-1 or sth (and put a hint in unit description, something along the lines "the stabbers prefer to choose their battles, but inevitably they can't always do so and many times get stuck in unusual situations which they can't handle all too well" or whatever. Or to lower attack and make it weak (like 5-3 / 4-3 / 3-3 /2-4) but add some special, for example anarchy / anger (2nd attack) / lesser backstab / backstab / charging backstab (2nd attack)/ push / poison? [nah poison would be op - you could perhaps aim for 5-1 / 2-2 poison to have a low chance to hit and add something to description too] (and possibly remove skirmisher), they have knives and it's petty and attack only and it's nothing you could do on a fair fight (if you remove skirmisher because the enemy will line up), also you would need to use team work to expose a second unit for backstab to work so all of the above sound really like goblin things to do (and closer to your own philosophy). Another thing you could use is frenzy somewhat as described here , make the attack like 7-1 but if it hits it gives another round and opponent gains an extra attack too etc. Or use swarm with berserk together maybe, the stabber with full health will give strong attack like 3-7/2-8/4-6 but as the battle progresses he will become tired and injured resulting in him giving way worse attacks. That way it will look more like an agile, frail, offensive unit. Or ignore all of the above and just leave them as is, these are just silly suggestions / ideas, so don't take anything too seriously :P

Edit: Also, just checked saboteurs... who are the best melee lv1 unit in the whole game by far!!! You should weaken them significantly (and maybe give them a secondary really weak one hit poison attack) (seriously why would one even use spearmen atm).

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MiddleTwin
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by MiddleTwin » October 15th, 2017, 3:52 pm

I would like to start off by answering your worries about the defensive and retaliatory capabilities of the stabber.
Spoiler:
Your concern about saboteurs makes some sense, given the way that I statted them. I have two major points to make here, the first being a comment on how goblin's stats will in general make them seem stronger than average, and the second a brief comparison of saboteurs with goblin impalers, and an explanation for why I made each change relative to impalers. This will be followed by a brief discussion of balancing methods that I've considered. TL;DR saboteurs are too strong atm, but since the player can't recruit them directly and they're still not really worth recalling I posted TGR to the add-ons server before deciding exactly how I wanted to nerf them.
Spoiler:
I'm also thinking of lowering the stabber's defense in villages to 60% to help give the saboteur a stronger village-hugging identity. As stabber is probably on the higher end of 7 gold, this seems like a good idea.

Edit: I just realized I miscounted the number of positive human traits. There are only 4. I went in and adjusted the numbers accordingly, but my error wasn't in my favor originally and so the argument is actually a little better now.
Currently writing The Goblin Rebellion, an sp campaign for version 1.12 and up.

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Inky
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by Inky » October 15th, 2017, 8:06 pm

Just finished the new version of the finale where you start in the middle. I just sent the trebuchets on a suicide mission north to go kill some orcs (the strongest side). Their heroic sacrifice will always be remembered. :whistle: The goblin leaders just ran east to the nearby keep, and from then the scenario played much the same as before, except it took a lot longer to grab villages. This time I had to send a group south to finish off the elves, but on the bright side the elves were nice enough to get the orc leader near the verge of death. Finished turn 15.

Maybe it would make the scenario more difficult if the player didn't start with the trebuchets, though I don't know how much of a difference that would make. :hmm: Right now the scenario is pretty easy but I'm not sure how to make it hard without making it annoying. Less starting gold/villages maybe?
Attachments
TGR-Finale_replay2.gz
Scenario 4, campaign v. 0.2.2
(38.23 KiB) Downloaded 113 times

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MiddleTwin
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Re: [SP] [Wesnoth 1.12] The Goblin Rebellion

Post by MiddleTwin » October 16th, 2017, 3:47 am

FYI: I just posted a change that turns Bark and Bite into wolves instead of wolf riders. This shouldn't break your saves or the game, but dialogue will now be somewhat off if you started the campaign before the patch and then updated.

Edit to avoid double post:
I wrote a wall of text on this initially, but I ended up getting logged out while I wrote it and when i tried to submit it redirected me to the login page and when it brought me back here it had deleted the stuff I wrote. Therefore, I'm going to make this brief:

I think I missed the forest for the trees when responding to Poison. While I stand by my assertion that stabbers aren't actually more durable than spearmen, and certainly aren't super-tanks, the bigger picture is still this:
  • Stabbers are about as durable as goblin spearmen
  • Stabbers do about 80-90% of the damage that spearmen do
  • Stabbers also have skirmisher
  • Stabbers cost 2 gold less than spearmen
This is op. Stabbers aren't super-tanks, but they don't have to be super-tanks to be op. They just have to be worth more than they cost, which is clearly the case here, and is probably what Poison was trying to drive at. I decided on a nerf, and initially I wrote a massive wall of text on this and I can edit one in later if anyone cares, but I don't think anyone does so I'm just going to say the nerf and hit submit

Stabbers now have a 5-2 charge instead of an 8-2 melee attack.

There, done.
Currently writing The Goblin Rebellion, an sp campaign for version 1.12 and up.

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