The Ravagers - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.16 [Feedback and development]

[WackoJacko]

S15:
Tharos: thread with caution! --> tread with caution Unless you mean "thread your way through carefully!"
Gallien: Golemnship -->Golemship

Hmm, I am a little bit unsure now, doesn't thread carefully mean to speak with care so as not to offend anyone? I mean to say here to move/step with caution so as not to get into traps, which one would that be?

Tread with caution would be the simplest change. However both work depending on what you're after. If it's just a general warning then "tread with caution" or "tread carefully" would suffice (kind of like saying, "watch where you step", "be careful", etc). However if you imagine a real life cave, then there are probably stalagmites and stalactites jutting out of the floor and ceiling and so you must move carefully around each obstacle, hence "thread your way carefully". Comes from the needle and thread definition.
(sorry that was so long winded, just wanted to point out some positives for each case)
TL;DR Tread with caution/Tread carefully

doesn't thread carefully mean to speak with care so as not to offend anyone?

Nope, this one is definitely tread, meaning to step. I.e. step carefully through the conversation as to no offend anyone

In the meantime I uploaded 1.3.3, with some of the changes, but nothing very new or very important.

Is it backwards compatible? I would love to implement those new effects for Maggoth

EDIT 1:
Advanced Leadership trait might require a nicer description. Consider removal of the word "equal" in "equal difference". Also no description of bonus applied to units of the same level, it just notes there is one. If we base it off the description then it would be 25 times 0, which is obviously 0, so no bonus. in contradiction to the noted new effect

EDIT 1a:
It seems to give 25% times level difference plus 25%

EDIT 2
S15 Dialogue

Spoiler:

The Lich says something along the lines of "rise up my undead warriors" but then nothing happens, I didn't meet him until approximately turn 15, by which time he was already engaged in battle. This line seems to indicate some sort of effect (spawn new units, gold increase, arrival of reinforcements) but nothing happens, at lest nothing I can determine

[WhiteWolf]

TL;DR Tread with caution/Tread carefully

Duly noted and implemented

In the meantime I uploaded 1.3.3, with some of the changes, but nothing very new or very important.

Is it backwards compatible? I would love to implement those new effects for Maggoth

Saved games are not broken so it's compatible, but if Milla already advanced then sadly no. However while I looked at it, I noticed that I left in a funny debugging message
So that needs an immediate fix, therefore I uploaded 1.3.4 and I thought I'd fix compatibility for you as well: press : to bring up the in-game console, first enter debug to enable debug commands, then enter the fire give_milla_training code. That should update the saved game, and the advancements will be available

Advanced Leadership trait might require a nicer description. Consider removal of the word "equal" in "equal difference". Also no description of bonus applied to units of the same level, it just notes there is one. If we base it off the description then it would be 25 times 0, which is obviously 0, so no bonus. in contradiction to the noted new effect

EDIT 1a:
It seems to give 25% times level difference plus 25%

So the way advanced leadership is better than the core leadership, is that in the formulas it decreases the level of the leading unit by 1. Which translates to 25% times true level plus 25%, yes, if the level criteria is met! So a level 2 won't give raw +25% to level 3's, nothing happens there, but it will give +50% to level 1's and +25% to level 2's. The description is misleading indeed, it is the template of the core leadership but I yes, that the description fails for level 0's, I haven thought of that.
I tried reformulating it to:

Adjacent own units of lower or same level will do more damage in battle. When a unit adjacent to, of a lower than or equal level, and on the same side as a unit with Advanced Leadership engages in combat, its attacks are enhanced like with regular leadership (25% more damage times the difference in their levels), and with an additional 25% damage.

S15 Dialogue

Spoiler:

The Lich says something along the lines of "rise up my undead warriors" but then nothing happens, I didn't meet him until approximately turn 15, by which time he was already engaged in battle. This line seems to indicate some sort of effect (spawn new units, gold increase, arrival of reinforcements) but nothing happens, at lest nothing I can determine

Yes there was a bug - he is only supposed to speak once the player sights him, but the dialogue was executed when any side sighted him. Fixed now

1.3.4:

1.3.4
- Removed a forgotten debugging message
- Improved advanced leadership's description
- Fixed a dialogue bug on map 15
- Typos

[BTIsaac]

No, it was a lazy ctr+c ctrl+v from my part But it indeed makes sense if the others give a witty comment to it.

Are you sure? Because unless i remember incorrectly, the victory speech was unique for every legendary enemy, and this is the only one that referenced decapitation.

[Konrad2]

Is it part of the story that the reinforcements from Knalga stop coming after some time?
I've been desperate to survive the whole time so I didn't even notice how the reinforcements stopped.

EDIT:
Is this some major stronghold for the Elves? Or did they declare war or something? I feel really hated.

Is it intended that a unit can be bleeding and be vitalized?

[WhiteWolf]

Are you sure? Because unless i remember incorrectly, the victory speech was unique for every legendary enemy, and this is the only one that referenced decapitation.

Hmm, not so sure anymore, the texts are unique indeed. I don't know. Whatever, definitely intended now

Is it part of the story that the reinforcements from Knalga stop coming after some time?
I've been desperate to survive the whole time so I didn't even notice how the reinforcements stopped.

Part of game balance, and I think the turn number for it depends on difficulty.

I feel really hated.

Is it intended that a unit can be bleeding and be vitalized?

Hmm, statuses in general do not interact, and stack up next to each other instead. However, both vitality and bleeding active at the same time, indeed makes little sense. They should probably cancel each other out. Maybe not right away when receiving them, but I think it's possible to add a filter to them when they trigger, and then both of them can be removed.

[Konrad2]

I gave up on turn 38/39. If the enemy waves had been 5 or so turns later, I probably would have won. But not like this...
And I think I had a really good start.

[WackoJacko]

Is it intended that a unit can be bleeding and be vitalized?

I had the same thing happen to me (albeit on an easier difficulty) and after about five turns of them competing, the bleed effect stopped.

See turns 38-42 below, check out my leader.

TRS-(TID 1) The Rugnur-Helhamel Mine replay.gz

(256.74 KiB) Downloaded 285 times

EDIT
S15
38,15 is unwalkable
What's the point of the Death Marshal at 42,9 ? It can't be attacked and there is no dialogue triggered Wait, it's petrified, why is it petrified?
Also, no early finish bonus? I finished on turn 35/82, am I just meant to end my turn 40-odd times to get that gold?

[Konrad2]

Right, I totally for got something. In this scenario, the hexes between 18,16 and 21,21 look like cliffs, which means the hexes between 19,16 and 22,21 should be impassable.

How about advancing the Tharsung in the Inn to a Dwarvish Explorer?

Why is there no hospital close to the nearest orcish valley? How about putting it on 9,7, the frozen hill? That way I can heal my units that are fighting with the orcs while it's still out of reach for the not quick miners.

Anyway. Here I go again. Take number 7.

EDIT:
It's funny how the outlaws can't join side 1 after going into the red (which has a 99% chance of happening on nightmare). But I guess that means I won't carry them to the next scenario. :/ Nothing I can do about it though.

[WackoJacko]

Why is there no hospital lose to the nearest orcish valley? How about putting it on 9,7, the frozen hill? That way I can heal my unit that are fighting with the orcs while it's still out of reach for the not quick miners.

Hospitals don't heal units though, they just provide them with the vitalise effect and then they heal as long as they don't take damage (or are at full health). Useful when using ranged units to attack melee-only units

EDIT:
Typos
After S15/Before S16

Spoiler:

Wail of Narduum: ravager --> needs capitalisation
Wail of Narduum: something of me --> something from me (unless its meant to be "off" but I don't think he's suggesting pillaging a corpse )
Elvyndiel: came over that mistery --> overcame that mystery
Wail of Narduum: ...under my bloodstained banner they still use today --> ...under my bloodstained banner that they still use today or ...under my bloodstained banner, they still use it today. Sounds weird grammatically when you consider it with the previous statement. On a side note, how does he know they still use it if he's been trapped in this tomb for years
Wail of Narduum: Cormac's mythical sword --> capitalise as it's a name
Cormac IV: *rises his gleaming sword* --> *raises his gleaming sword*
Narduum: Let them come, soldiers, form ranks --> Let them come. Soldiers, form ranks (although i would prefer "Let them come. Soldiers! Form ranks!") I think the fullstop is justified as he is talking to two different people/groups of people

EDIT 2:
After S16
A few instances of "ravagers" needing capitalisation

[Konrad2]

That's what I meant indeed. Putting it one close to the orcish valley allows me to vitalize my units one turn earlier, which means they heal 6hp one turn earlier. That way the orcish valley there won't be as dangerous.

It would be nice if upgrades/building I can't build yet/lack the resources for still told me what they actually do. After all, why should I try to gain the resources/meet the requirements if I don't even know if I want to build this thing?

[WackoJacko]

@Konrad2

Watched your replay and I have a suggestion for you

Spoiler:

-Instead of sending your leader after that gold at the start and the scout NW, why don't you switch? Then the leader can use the gold straight away, either to recruit more units, buy upgrades or my preference; trade for wood to block the NW orcs.
-If you send all your scouts south, they should run into some woses or animals which you could kill for resources
-Send that first set of reinforcements (especially if you get scouts) directly South, whenever I played they would run into two or three woses which can be killed easily (70% defence, unopposed range attack, nearby village which you can use to get vitalise)
-Just noticed this, buy the marketplace so you can swap gold, food and wood
-Personally, I wouldn't upgrade the dwellings. It might be a bug but you can have more units than places available. it just means you won't be able to recruit

[Konrad2]

@Konrad2

Watched your replay and I have a suggestion for you

Spoiler:

-Instead of sending your leader after that gold at the start and the scout NW, why don't you switch? Then the leader can use the gold straight away, either to recruit more units, buy upgrades or my preference; trade for wood to block the NW orcs.
-If you send all your scouts south, they should run into some woses or animals which you could kill for resources
-Send that first set of reinforcements (especially if you get scouts) directly South, whenever I played they would run into two or three woses which can be killed easily (70% defence, unopposed range attack, nearby village which you can use to get vitalise)
-Just noticed this, buy the marketplace so you can swap gold, food and wood
-Personally, I wouldn't upgrade the dwellings. It might be a bug but you can have more units than places available. it just means you won't be able to recruit

First of all, which replay? I already uploaded two.

Spoiler:

- Because any scout has 3 or 4 mp less than my leader. And even my leader cuts it close against the incoming elves. A scout won't make it in time unless I'm quite lucky.
- I can't afford to continue to send them south, since orcs can spawn any time and they have to get back fast enough. Also, incoming elves.
- I usually do that, but it depends on the orcs. I also tend to send only the scouts, because they are somewaht mobile and have a blade ranged attack. And no, there is no nearby village to vitalize. You only get that one once you upgrade the hospital to lvl 2.
- Marketplace is something I always buy once I actually have stuff to trade.
- I don't know for sure what I did that replay, but I probably indeed upgraded them so I could recruit. My starting/reinforcement units are just not enough to deal with the incoming attacks unless I somehow keep them all alive and am lucky. And I might have wanted more miners as well.

Also, it's not a bug that you can have more unit than places avaible. Reinforcements from Knalga count towards the limit, but the don't leave even if there is no place when they arrive. That seems to be the only way to go over the limit.

[WackoJacko]

First of all, which replay? I already uploaded two.

latest one

Spoiler:

- Because any scout has 3 or 4 mp less than my leader. And even my leader cuts it close against the incoming elves. A scout won't make it in time unless I'm quite lucky.

fair enough. i forgot about that

Spoiler:

- I can't afford to continue to send them south, since orcs can spawn any time and they have to get back fast enough. Also, incoming elves.

Instead of upgrading dwellings, block off NW orcs?

Spoiler:

- I usually do that, but it depends on the orcs. I also tend to send only the scouts, because they are somewaht mobile and have a blade ranged attack. And no, there is no nearby village to vitalize. You only get that one once you upgrade the hospital to lvl 2.

The one at 9,21?

[Konrad2]

Instead of upgrading dwellings, block off NW orcs?

14-21 gold = 3-4 wood. So it doesn't help with blocking off orcs. Not to mention that usually the most pressing problem is getting to the valley itself. Orcs have ZoC as well.

The one at 9,21?

Since you said 'vitalize', I assumed that you menat a hospital.
The village you are speaking of is not something I can take. Because if I do, sooner or later the AI will come and try to get it back. Said AI also sends sometimes units that way anyway, so my own units are not safe there. And I still need all my units in my base or I'll be overrun.

EDIT:
Entombed in Ice
Personally, I don't like that you changed the map compared to The Portal. And it doesn't feel great that noone can recall my units from The Rugnur-Helham Mine.

[WhiteWolf]

Wow, so much information I'm away until the weekend so I can anwer for now, but solve issues only later.

I had the same thing happen to me (albeit on an easier difficulty) and after about five turns of them competing, the bleed effect stopped.
See turns 38-42 below, check out my leader.

I don't have a copy of Wesnoth around for now, so I can only check later. But it's gonna be solved anyway, they really shouldn't compete, the correct way is indeed to cancel them out.

38,15 is unwalkable
What's the point of the Death Marshal at 42,9 ? It can't be attacked and there is no dialogue triggered Wait, it's petrified, why is it petrified?
Also, no early finish bonus? I finished on turn 35/82, am I just meant to end my turn 40-odd times to get that gold?

If I recall correctly, it's just a statue. Are you sure there wasn't early finish bonus? (there should be). Reminder: if nothing is stated in the scenario objectives, it means Wesnoth's default 80% But I'll add the 80% info to the objectives sometime in the future then.

Right, I totally for got something. In this scenario, the hexes between 18,16 and 21,21 look like cliffs, which means the hexes between 19,16 and 22,21 should be impassable.

Can't check right now, but cliff sides are not defined as impassable - at times they are, at times they aren't. But I'll check it's possible that there's a mistake.

How about advancing the Tharsung in the Inn to a Dwarvish Explorer?

I don't know, but maybe not. He's kind of a pensioner now, so he advanced down as he got older

Why is there no hospital close to the nearest orcish valley? How about putting it on 9,7, the frozen hill? That way I can heal my units that are fighting with the orcs while it's still out of reach for the not quick miners.

Makes sense, I'll see to it.

It's funny how the outlaws can't join side 1 after going into the red (which has a 99% chance of happening on nightmare). But I guess that means I won't carry them to the next scenario. :/ Nothing I can do about it though.

They start with both less gold and more negative income compared to hard, if I recall correctly, so maybe a slight adjustment is needed then.

It would be nice if upgrades/building I can't build yet/lack the resources for still told me what they actually do. After all, why should I try to gain the resources/meet the requirements if I don't even know if I want to build this thing?

Hmm, I agree, I'll add a short description about them to the message where their requirements are listed.

Also, it's not a bug that you can have more unit than places avaible. Reinforcements from Knalga count towards the limit, but the don't leave even if there is no place when they arrive. That seems to be the only way to go over the limit.

Indeed, the reinforcements will always come, regardless of you being full pop limit, but they are still added to your current population. If you are full or above, it only means you can't recruit.

I have no idea about that assertion fail, I'll need to ask someone.

Entombed in Ice
Personally, I don't like that you changed the map compared to The Portal. And it doesn't feel great that noone can recall my units from The Rugnur-Helham Mine.

I had to change it a little bit for gameplay reasons. It would make sense though that the leader in the mine could recall units from the first scenario, I'll experiment with that.
I'll watch the victorious replay

Now that last screenshot, hmm... what? Did this happen once, or is it a constant issue?

(I didn't comment to typos and strategy discussions, if I accidentaly missed something important, tell me! )