Balance of the game

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Sheitan666
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Joined: October 25th, 2011, 4:09 pm

Balance of the game

Post by Sheitan666 » July 4th, 2015, 6:15 am

Good afternoon, dear developers of Battle for Wesnoth!

I write to you to express my concerns about balance of the game. After studying statistics of the tournament games at Russian forum of the game http://tour.wesnothlife.ru/stats.php

Drakes - 54.91%
Loyals - 53.33%
Rebels - 48.43%
Northeners - 49.31%
Knalgans - 48.43%
Undead - 42.36%

I concluded that the fraction Undead has too small win rate, and that’s can ruin the balance of the game and threaten the equilibrium of Battle for Wesnoth world. As you can see, all the fractions have about 200 games and an inaccuracy in the statistics is very small, but undead has the biggest departure from the golden mean. I’d like to know, do developers have their own statistics of the game and could I see it? I’m afraid, that my child can get an emotional trauma if he will get the race, that has the least chances for the win. If Russian forum statistics is correct – confirm this, if it’s not – refute.


Best regards, Sheitan666

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zookeeper
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by zookeeper » July 4th, 2015, 9:10 am

Win rates do not imply imbalance: a faction can be harder/easier to play well, without it actually being over/underpowered.

Sheitan666
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Joined: October 25th, 2011, 4:09 pm

Re: Balance of the game

Post by Sheitan666 » July 4th, 2015, 9:26 am

zookeeper wrote:Win rates do not imply imbalance: a faction can be harder/easier to play well, without it actually being over/underpowered.
No becoze similar statistics have high-level players. See

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Piko555
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by Piko555 » July 4th, 2015, 10:33 am

It's also worth noting that the two highest rank players from your ladder who hold 70-80% winrate seem to not play undead nearly as often, pumping their winrate down quite a bit. Cumulative 160 games they have played is enough to make 5-10% difference in total statistics outcome.

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lipk
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by lipk » July 4th, 2015, 3:39 pm

It's widely accepted that Undead needs a buff, but apparently nobody in the current development team (which consists of about five people) has both the relevant expertise and will to fix the situation.
I’m afraid, that my child can get an emotional trauma if he will get the race, that has the least chances for the win.
Uh, I hate to tell you this, but something's wrong with that kid :P

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iceiceice
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by iceiceice » July 4th, 2015, 3:46 pm

lipk wrote:It's widely accepted that Undead needs a buff, but apparently nobody in the current development team (which consists of about five people) has both the relevant expertise and will to fix the situation.
+1

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SigurdFireDragon
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by SigurdFireDragon » July 4th, 2015, 4:09 pm

Sheitan666 wrote:... I write to you to express my concerns about balance of the game. After studying statistics of the tournament games at Russian forum of the game http://tour.wesnothlife.ru/stats.php ...
Anyone know if the corresponding statistics from http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/ can be found?

Sheitan666
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by Sheitan666 » July 4th, 2015, 4:27 pm

SigurdFireDragon wrote:
Sheitan666 wrote:... I write to you to express my concerns about balance of the game. After studying statistics of the tournament games at Russian forum of the game http://tour.wesnothlife.ru/stats.php ...
Anyone know if the corresponding statistics from http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/ can be found?
We have statistics from the ladder, but it is not yet finalized. After a couple of days I will publish it.
lipk wrote:It's widely accepted that Undead needs a buff, but apparently nobody in the current development team (which consists of about five people) has both the relevant expertise and will to fix the situation.
I’m afraid, that my child can get an emotional trauma if he will get the race, that has the least chances for the win.
Uh, I hate to tell you this, but something's wrong with that kid :P

We have specific proposals, which we will provide you for consideration, it would be nice if these changes were implemented, it may be worthwhile to talk about compensation?
Last edited by shadowm on July 4th, 2015, 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please use the Edit button, or the Quote buttons under the post editor when first replying.

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SatHyre
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by SatHyre » July 5th, 2015, 8:37 am

hello,
my suggestion is to give to this faction an unit like the lieutnant for loyalists : an unit that get the leadership ability but is not promoted from units level 1 that can be recruited.

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lipk
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by lipk » July 5th, 2015, 8:23 pm

Sheitan666 wrote: We have specific proposals, which we will provide you for consideration, it would be nice if these changes were implemented, it may be worthwhile to talk about compensation?
We'll be happy to discuss any ideas.
hello,
my suggestion is to give to this faction an unit like the lieutnant for loyalists : an unit that get the leadership ability but is not promoted from units level 1 that can be recruited.
Sorry, that's not how it works. Which specific matchups are imbalanced? How the proposed change will improve the balance of those matchups? How will it affect other matchups? Why is this the best way to fix the perceived balance problem? Your idea might be great, but you have to explain why.

Sir_Cryer
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by Sir_Cryer » July 5th, 2015, 11:30 pm

I used to like undeads when we could do bat and walking corpse spams. Now they are not worth the cost most of the times. Maybe you have just one of each for strategic objectives. Adding death knight to the recruit list with a complete leveling brach from 1 to 3 and leadership could turn it more attractive.

However, i wouldnt do anything that could unbalance the game cuz it looks somewhat balanced right now.

Raliven
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Joined: December 31st, 2005, 4:15 am

Re: Balance of the game

Post by Raliven » July 6th, 2015, 7:47 am

I would expect that the issue mainly has to do with Undead's lack of mobility. Most or all 1v1 maps have multiple fronts you have to deploy troops on and oftentimes you have to shuttle units back and forth. Having most units lacking the quickness trait mean you have that much less room for error in repositioning your troops. So one possible fix might be to give skeletons a chance of getting the quickness trait. Of course this might make UD much too powerful against drakes on small maps like Isar's.

Another issue regarding mobility is the lack of an undead unit that can hit hard from a distance at level one. All the other factions have level one units that can hit decently to quite hard (at least during the right TOD) if they are quick (number of moves in parentheses):

Drakes: warrior(7), augur(7), skirmisher(7)
Knalgans: gryphon(9), thief(7)
Loyalists: horseman(9), cavalryman(9), fencer(7), merman fighter(7)
Northerners: naga(8), assassin(7)
Rebels: archer(7)

All of these units, except the orcish assassin, have the possibility of doing 16 points of damage or more under the right circumstances. (I included the orcish assassin as the idea is that these units can inflict damage from a distance.) Some can do a lot more and some from a lot farther. And only the gryphon and the horseman on this list (both of which hit harder from farther) cost more than the ghost. I'm not sure what a good solution would be for this. Perhaps make the level one ghost a little cheaper or hit for one point more damage? But then the wraith at level two would probably have to be made weaker to compensate, as it's pretty powerful now as is.

Of course, this is more to address an issue with 1v1 play, because the battles are usually so fluid there. On a 2v2 map like Clash, however, this issue comes up a lot less, because things are usually more static, and you have a partner who is usually a different faction to help out.

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poltergeist
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by poltergeist » July 6th, 2015, 8:22 am

well i guess it depends on the player playing that faction
unbalance is not a problem if player enjoy and good at playing that certain faction

just my opinion...
trial and error method

serwusek
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Joined: July 10th, 2015, 10:13 am

Re: Balance of the game

Post by serwusek » July 10th, 2015, 10:17 am

this is only a few percent difference. If some race will have winrate at level ~20% ther will be reason to worry

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watbesh
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Re: Balance of the game

Post by watbesh » July 10th, 2015, 2:06 pm

Only the fact that Undead have 42% winrate doesn't give any key to solutions - are they TOTALLY weak? or very weak against certain faction(s)? ...So I followed the link in the original post and found "Statistics of factions". I made a chart from that.
You can follow that link by yourself:
...And then my opinions;
Analysis by a novice player:
EDIT - This data/table often doesn't agree with Sulik's post. They have different metagames? or just the sample sizes are too small?
Last edited by watbesh on July 11th, 2015, 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
My MP Eras and Mods with core units and unusual gameplay (version 1.3.1 for Wesnoth 1.12)

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