Soul Crystals: Leader Revival

[DranKof]

I don't get it. You can still attack the soul crystal itself? And if it dies, it's still insta-lose? So now you've got a hero you can afford to lose once every X turns plus a weak leader that can't defend itself? Why not just give your faction an extra 2nd level unit at start, or play Champions? Not trying to diss you (and I like the new graphics) but where's the advantage?

I'm not sure if you were unsure about the mechanics of the mod, so I went over them again here:

The soul crystal has 80 hp (adjustable). It requires 60 hp (adjustable) to resurrect your leader/hero, which the crystal recovers at 8 hp/turn (10 resting), and if the crystal does not have it, it dies, and you lose. Therefore, killing the hero rapidly or attacking a crystal directly (especially right after a revival) are both ways of winning, that is, killing the "leader" (=recruiting unit), the hard-coded victory condition in Wesnoth.

Right now in any Wesnoth game, losing your leader is insta-lose. If not, people could fly units over lava/chasms where certain factions can't reach them, forcing draws where victories would be more appropriate. (Or just spend endless turns running with fast units or hiding ents in trees, for example.)

I think providing another 2nd level unit leader ("for recruiting") would only just bolster starting forces and not actually change actual game play dramatically. The game play would still have the fundamental flaws that my mod addresses (the mod's "advantages"), as listed at the top of the first post describing the mod:

- AI Leaders don't attack (and thus are at a massive disadvantage against human players),
- and losing a leader to a RNG anomaly is annoying (there are dozens of 'no random mod' requests).

I'm not sure, were you interested in having a cool unit that is like an uber-boss for your hero? This mod currently doesn't do that, but it sure would be easy to add in. I have considered making the crystal combat-capable with heavily customized, selectable level advancements (faster regeneration, better attacks/counterattacks, higher hp, etc.) but haven't heard any demand for it, yet, so I assume people prefer the more vanilla-y game style, keeping the crystal as a recruiter/flag/base-like thing to defend.

I cannot play Champions (as I'm at work, atm) but I will try it out as soon as I can (and edit this post here if no one's replied yet).
EDIT: I just did a search through the 1.11 and 1.10 addons. In 1.11 didn't find anything with "champions" in it, and in 1.10 only found a campaign and scenario, which are completely different things from this. This is a multiplayer mod that can be played on any map and with any era. That might be another advantage.

Currently this mod is aimed at keeping a vanilla feel while maintaining fairness with AI opponents and cutting back on the impact of bad rolls associated with medium-risk leader use. I will try to look into the Champions mod when I get home tonight. I hope this addressed your questions about the advantages and let me know if you'd like to see any other features added or adjusted!

[Mars]

Several eras have the Champion option, meaning that you can recruit lvl2 units in MP. It tends to increase survival chances.

I think I was set on the wrong track by your first post. The issue is not insta-lose when your leader dies. If I understand you correctly, in effect you still have that in your mod: your soul crystal is the new leader. The real issue is that human players use their leaders more effectively? I would say that's a fair point, although I have seen the AI send their leader frontwards. Your second point, though, seems to contradict that. Using your leader in fights is very effective, but there's a risk involved. You don't want to run the risk? Then don't use your leader in the frontlines. I would be more concerned that the AI doesn't know how to manage those risks, but if that's what you mod solves, you could be clearer.

Also, I'd been interested in the results from playtesting. Your decoupling nets the AI a lvl2 unit they can use on the frontline without risking insta-lose and which they can revive to boot. Does the AI use it effectively? Does it resurrect its fallen "leaders"? And, of course, how do human players do with this system? Surely they will exploit it to the full, so: have you tested whether it doesn't in fact increase human over AI advantage?

[RazzleStorm]

Also, I'd been interested in the results from playtesting. Your decoupling nets the AI a lvl2 unit they can use on the frontline without risking insta-lose and which they can revive to boot. Does the AI use it effectively? Does it resurrect its fallen "leaders"? And, of course, how do human players do with this system? Surely they will exploit it to the full, so: have you tested whether it doesn't in fact increase human over AI advantage?

I played with DranKof for playtesting, and the AI seems to use its lvl2 (and lvl1) units as effectively as any human player. The AI heals important units, gangs up on enemy units, etc. DranKof's mod doesn't really change AI too much in that respect. As for "exploiting" this, I helped him balance it, so that you can't just kill your leader repeatedly. Think of it like shields in some FPS games - they recharge over time. The crystal makes it so that you don't insta-lose when your leader dies, but it doesn't mean that you can wipe out the enemy single-handedly with just your leader.

Aside from the AI not using their leaders properly (not an issue), what advantages would you be worried about in human vs. AI? I'm sort of confused about your concern, since the mod doesn't really touch AI (as far as I know).

Also, the crystal is much harder to kill than killing a level 2 unit twice, so I don't think that is too much of an issue.

[DranKof]

I think I was set on the wrong track by your first post. The issue is not insta-lose when your leader dies. If I understand you correctly, in effect you still have that in your mod: your soul crystal is the new leader. The real issue is that human players use their leaders more effectively? I would say that's a fair point, although I have seen the AI send their leader frontwards.

The computers' leaders, by default, use what is something like how the 'Guardian AI' works. Basically, the AI is designed to tell the leader to stay put on whatever keep is closest. It will recruit if it has the money to recruit the next unit in its desired unit queue. It will not move off of the keep unless 1) units have been recruited, and 2a) there's a non-friendly town nearby or 2b) enemy units nearby and the computer is convinced (through its own calculations) taking said actions (i.e. attacking a unit nearby the keep) won't result in the death of the leader.

If you've seen other frontward behavior of an AI leader unit, let me know.

Players are free to move their leader units about in vanilla game play, making them much more useful for an assortment of roles.

The mod makes the AI's hero a regular unit, so the AI treats it as one, and uses it in game-deciding vital initial clashes, which are where AI opponents suffer the greater disadvantage in vanilla.

Does the AI use it effectively? Does it resurrect its fallen "leaders"? And, of course, how do human players do with this system? Surely they will exploit it to the full, so: have you tested whether it doesn't in fact increase human over AI advantage?

Try it for yourself! If you find anything I say not true, let me know.
Yes, the AI uses their heroes effectively. Yes, the revival occurs without requiring any special action be taken. Humans do well also (it affects the play style slightly in that humans will maybe be more bold with their leader than before, which makes your heros really cool and worthy of your player name). As for exploits, see below. As for does it in fact help the AI more than humans? I would say, yes; it pulls the hero unit out of the keep and into combat, just as players tend to already do (in my experience), and the AI doesn't seem to lose all the more easily because of it, quite the opposite.

I have thought up (or heard people mention) three possible exploits:

1) "Losing your leader automatically refills his HP."
- Losing a leader's firepower as well as yielding that much XP to the enemy is by no means a worthwhile trade-off (oh yeah, and losing your leader isn't cool).

2) "People will pick uber-fighter-heros."
- Also, cool. But in actual playtesting, if you don't play with random, you're probably much better off picking a unit with healing or leadership ability who is only useful when they don't die. Any unit is mortal enough and the overall benefit of support units tend to outweigh combatants, even if the combatant doesn't fear death. Just in case you disagree with this statement, I added an option to start leaders out as their level 1 equivalents, which makes leveling them up feel even cooler, while offsetting any overpowered-ness.

3) "It could be used to teleport your leader back to your soul crystal."
- The main reason you'd want to do that is to save a soul crystal under attack when no other units are present, doing so would cost your soul crystal almost all of its HP...so teleporting back to save the soul crystal may very well kill the soul crystal anyway. Also...maybe the enemy won't kill your leader when they'd rather just kill your crystal?

I have play-tested this a lot. Again, the mod does not fundamentally change overall game play: if your main line/group of troops falls, the enemy will have a unit and probably an economic advantage, and you will probably lose the match. The only difference is, you might not have to worry as much should your leader die when you're winning cause someone got some epic random numbers, but you still will have to worry all the same.

I personally think that it is a very gentle mod. With a layer of cool.