Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Temuchin Khan »

I'll try to supply some more detailed comments here. Thank you all for taking up my Orcei and further developing them!

I'm quite satisfied with the new Pugnator and Bestiarius sprites, as I've said before. I accepted the old sprites because it was all we had at the time, but I always knew they could have been improved a little. Also, I do agree that they look better with the bandannas covering their mouths.

The lorica manica does look good on the Paegniarius. However, shouldn't the Paegniarius' nipples be a bit more subtle? At least, that's my first impression. I realize it's justan initial concept. Overall, though, it's also quite good.

The concept art for the Feral Bestiarius sprite looks promising, once it's been cleaned up a little. I like the idea of giving him a multi-headed whip, givent that the Romans really did have those.

I also like the new Piscator sprite.

As to the portrait art, some are obviously more developed than others. The Bestiarius art is good, and quite Orcish, while still retaining some hints that this is a roman gladiator. It seems to be more Orcish than Roman, but still Roman enough. After all, given that these are escaped slaves, we shouldn't be surprised if they weave their own ways together with the Roman ways they've been forced to adopt, so it makes sense. I'll O.K. it. It can go in as our first IE portrait.

I agree with unwise owl that the Pugnator sketch is on the right track, but a little too Trollish. I think if it were less bulky, stood up straighter, and a little more Roman-looking, it could work. Also, unwise owl's advice to base it on the Pugnator sprite makes sense. Keep up the good work!

Freeforestify's unspecified Orcish gladiator portrait is much closer to what we're looking for: a blend of Roman and Orcish. It needs to be tweaked to fit more closely with one or another of the existing units, but that could be done. It could work for the Secutor, if we gave him a sword and shield rather than a spear, or for the Hoplomachus, if we added a shield and belted on a sword.

And finally, unwise owl will be happy to hear that his comments have been pointing people in the right direction.

Keep up the good work, everyone!
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Amorphous
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Amorphous »

Oh man, has it already been more than two weeks since I posted here? :doh: Sorry for the lack of productivity, I've been rather caught up IRL, but I think I'll have a lot more time for spriting in the next few weeks.
UnwiseOwl wrote:The piscator looks good to my mind, but it's pretty busy, hard to know whart's really going on. I'm no artist, but it isn't obvious to me what's going on with his arms and weapons in that one.
I see what you mean. I've come up with two edits, one where I was just trying to make the different elements more distinct, and another where I changed up the pose (the original is on the left). Personally, I'm leaning towards the one in the middle, but I can understand if you'd prefer the one on the right.
Temuchin Khan wrote:. . . shouldn't the Paegniarius' nipples be a bit more subtle? At least, that's my first impression. I realize it's justan initial concept.
Actually, those are supposed to be highlights, but I can see where you get that impression. I'll work on fixing that, thanks for pointing it out. :)

On another note, what's the current thought on the classification of the Samnis line? IIRC the last word in the development thread was that it has a whole category (medii?) to itself? Just want to clarify before I start pixelling anything. :)
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UnwiseOwl
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by UnwiseOwl »

That central one is pretty good, actually. I think that looks a bit more like a pitchfork than a trident, though (maybe try shortening the side tines as compared to the central ones?), but that stance is good and the better definition makes it much clearer what's going on without being as awkward as the rightmost version.

As to the samnis lines, that's a gameplay concern that we're still trying to work out, but we're unlikely to work it out in the near future (I work SLOW). If you're keen to continue with orcish sprites while you're on a roll then just assume for now that they'll stay as magni, but if you want to wait until we've resolved it from a gameplay perspective (given that it's possible, though not likely, that weapons and stuff might change too) then you may be better moving on to one of the more stable races such as the Sidhe while we play with these guys (I included a couple of starter sprite change suggestions for the Sidhe in my original sprite thread, which seems like an age ago).

So you know, up to you. Official word on the Samnis is that for now there is no official word :p

Also, please note that I am releasing a revision of the IE for the Wesnoth 1.11 series (and officially abandoning development on the 1.10 version) at the end of the month. If people have sprites or portraits that they would like included in that release, please finalise them and let me know, and it would be a pleasure to include them. If not, no huge loss, they'll have to wait until the next version, which is likely to be in mid-March unless the balancing work magically becomes more active.
Maintainer of the Imperial Era and the campaigns Dreams of Urduk, Epic of Vaniyera, Up from Slavery, Fall of Silvium, Alfhelm the Wise and Gali's Contract.
But perhaps 'maintainer' is too strong a word.
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Zoomo
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Zoomo »

Hey I don't know if anyone wants it but I tried redoing the rain dancer unit
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Zoomo
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Zoomo »

Tweaked a bit and made cloned male version
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UnwiseOwl
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by UnwiseOwl »

Sorry that I haven't got back to you there, Zoomo.
I quite like your sprites there, but unfortunately our current raindancers are completely animated, so as nice as yours are I'm unlikely to replace a fully animated sprite with a single frame. I think you'll find that those raindancers are also a little bit small for the other sprites in the line/race.
Still, thanks for your interest in the IE. We'd love your help in improving our art, if you'd like to check the requests earlier in the thread you may find a project that interests you that we are able to use, including helping to diferentiate the Tempest and Windlasher, level 2 and 3 promotions of the raindancer, and the Tempest is currently not animated at all.
Actually, since this line currently violates RIPLIB, it needs a change from sword to some kind of staff for the Tempest and Windlasher. The raindancer currently has a knife, and the Warmage is the RIPLIB compliant unit, so the Windlasher should have some kind of stall stave, where the Tempest would have a larger staff as a pre-cursor the the staff of the Stormlord. If you (or someone else) were interested in this project, that would be wonderful.
Maintainer of the Imperial Era and the campaigns Dreams of Urduk, Epic of Vaniyera, Up from Slavery, Fall of Silvium, Alfhelm the Wise and Gali's Contract.
But perhaps 'maintainer' is too strong a word.
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Zoomo
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Zoomo »

Ok, its fine if you don't want to use them, animations do take a while. :)

I can see if I can make a tempest sprite keeping in mind what you said
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Amorphous
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Amorphous »

Blah. Sorry for being so slow. I was planning on cleaning up some more sprites over the weekend in time for the new release, but it appears that I'm in the midst of an artist's block. :hmm: I'm getting easily frustrated and my pace is slower than a snail. It might be a while before I can get any more sprites done. D:

I only just fixed up the Piscator earlier today. Though, I'm still not so sure about the trident.
UnwiseOwl wrote:So you know, up to you. Official word on the Samnis is that for now there is no official word :p
Right, thanks for the info. I guess I'll put off that line for now. It's not like there isn't stuff to do in the meantime, after all.

@Zoomo, glad to see someone else working on the IE. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. :)
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UnwiseOwl
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by UnwiseOwl »

There haven't been any art changes to the IE in...more than three years. Don't stress yourself over a week or two here or there. I look forward to seeing what you might don't with the rest of the Piscator line.

Which reminds me, I was trawling the Orcei and noticed again that you've added another level of Retiarius, Temuchin, so that it has a level three version. Given that it already has slow and good speed and movetype, do you think that this is really required? Personally, having the top level Laquerius and Retarius as strictly inferior to the best Magni would be preferable. Any thoughts? If we were to revert that change it would be good to do it before any art is prepared for it.
Maintainer of the Imperial Era and the campaigns Dreams of Urduk, Epic of Vaniyera, Up from Slavery, Fall of Silvium, Alfhelm the Wise and Gali's Contract.
But perhaps 'maintainer' is too strong a word.
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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Temuchin Khan »

UnwiseOwl wrote:Which reminds me, I was trawling the Orcei and noticed again that you've added another level of Retiarius, Temuchin, so that it has a level three version.
The reason for that decision was this comment here:
drakefriend wrote:No. The Thraex and Secutor were close-quarter fighters, and the Threax did not poison. However, the Thraex should have a special that wold allow him to ignore resistences, as the falx was used to attack the bare back of the opposing Murmillo. And of course, the Retiarius should be elusive, as the point of Secutor vs. Retiarius actually was the armoured-but-tiring Secutor against the agile-but-vulnerable Retiarius. And of course, Retiarius should be the same level as Secutor as they were balanced to fight each other in a duel.
Remember, Gladiator types were balanced for exciting fights against specific other types, and these fightes were mostly close-quarter.
If the traditional Roman match-up was Secutor vs. Retiarius, then as long as there is a level 3 Secutor, there should also be a level 3 Retiarius.
unwise owl wrote:Given that it already has slow and good speed and movetype, do you think that this is really required? Personally, having the top level Laquerius and Retarius as strictly inferior to the best Magni would be preferable. Any thoughts? If we were to revert that change it would be good to do it before any art is prepared for it.
If gameplay would be improved by reverting that change, so be it.
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UnwiseOwl
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by UnwiseOwl »

Ah, right, I understand. Makes sense, I guess :)

It's a bit hard to know if this causes a balance problem at the moment, we really need to look at fixing the experience requirements for the Orcei (they're amazingly low at the moment, which is nice compensation for their relative weakness, but very hard to balance) before being able to work out if another level of retarius is overpowered, but my feeling for the balance of the faction is that it is. Would you like to have a look at this or would you like me to do it?
Either way, for art purposes it's probably better to assume only the two levels of Retarius for now rather than waste the efforts of artsy types. If we decide to keep the extra Retarius then we can source more art for it then.
Maintainer of the Imperial Era and the campaigns Dreams of Urduk, Epic of Vaniyera, Up from Slavery, Fall of Silvium, Alfhelm the Wise and Gali's Contract.
But perhaps 'maintainer' is too strong a word.
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Zoomo
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Zoomo »

I was messing with the tempest and I couldn't help but tweak the wind runners colour, no design changes but now it has much fewer colours
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Temuchin Khan
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Temuchin Khan »

UnwiseOwl wrote:Ah, right, I understand. Makes sense, I guess :)

It's a bit hard to know if this causes a balance problem at the moment, we really need to look at fixing the experience requirements for the Orcei (they're amazingly low at the moment, which is nice compensation for their relative weakness, but very hard to balance) before being able to work out if another level of retarius is overpowered, but my feeling for the balance of the faction is that it is. Would you like to have a look at this or would you like me to do it?
Either way, for art purposes it's probably better to assume only the two levels of Retarius for now rather than waste the efforts of artsy types. If we decide to keep the extra Retarius then we can source more art for it then.
Sounds like a good compromise, at least for the experimental era.
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Sleepwalker
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Sleepwalker »

Amorphous:
One could exaggerate the net of the piscator even more. Otherwise the the unit looks good.

The Paegenarius look like a nice concept, you should finish it.

The animation could have a little more windup with the body rearing back with lifting the front leg maybe. It's also lacking frames for stepping back after the thrust... But you are free to ignore these comments as it's not meant for mainline anyway.
Sometimes we must be hurt in order to grow, fail in order to know, lose in order to gain, and sometimes we must have to be broken so we can be whole again...
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Amorphous
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Re: Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

Post by Amorphous »

UnwiseOwl wrote:There haven't been any art changes to the IE in...more than three years. Don't stress yourself over a week or two here or there.
Well, when you put it that way. . . . :) Point taken, I guess. I just tend to feel like a [censored] if I don't fulfill promises.
UnwiseOwl wrote:Either way, for art purposes it's probably better to assume only the two levels of Retarius for now rather than waste the efforts of artsy types. If we decide to keep the extra Retarius then we can source more art for it then.
Temuchin Khan wrote:Sounds like a good compromise, at least for the experimental era.
Yeah, I was wondering about that, and leaving the level 3 aside for now sounds good. On another note, how should I depict the Laquerius and Laquerius Fabers' lances? The Faber's current sprite has something that looks like a jousting lance, which doesn't seem very fitting for an unmounted unit. Should I go with a mainly wooden body which has vamplate, or basically clean up the current designs?
Zoomo wrote:I was messing with the tempest and I couldn't help but tweak the wind runners colour, no design changes but now it has much fewer colours
It's a definite improvement, but I think that you might want to more thoroughly redo it. The proportions look a little off and there are some shadings from the original sprite.
Sleepwalker wrote:Amorphous[...] But you are free to ignore these comments as it's not meant for mainline anyway.
Even if it isn't mainline, there's no excuse for making bad art. :P Seriously though, I appreciate the critique; it's hard for me to tell if I'm doing good or totally screwing up, sometimes.
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