Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

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Telchin
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Telchin »

S7
Please add a hint about where the passage will appear. Someone could easily get done in by having Master Sea Head at the wrong place when the passage opens. (Like, I need 7 turns to get him there. What I had less than 7 turns left?)
Actually, there is a hint of sorts. Every time you conquer a wardstone, one hex of the passage opens. I admit that at first the change is easy to miss, but I assumed that at least by the third wardstone you would notice. Clearyl I was wrong :hmm: I also thought that the players would assume the passage is on the south as there is the guardian fish on the north and it's not an objective to kill it.
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Konrad2 »

Telchin wrote: February 25th, 2022, 4:09 pm
S7
Please add a hint about where the passage will appear. Someone could easily get done in by having Master Sea Head at the wrong place when the passage opens. (Like, I need 7 turns to get him there. What I had less than 7 turns left?)
Actually, there is a hint of sorts. Every time you conquer a wardstone, one hex of the passage opens. I admit that at first the change is easy to miss, but I assumed that at least by the third wardstone you would notice. Clearyl I was wrong :hmm: I also thought that the players would assume the passage is on the south as there is the guardian fish on the north and it's not an objective to kill it.
Oops. Never mind then. I focused too much on the warding stones and the undead.

EDIT:
Changing of the Guard
nex time -> next time

Old Lich and the Sea
into magical -> into a/the magical

S11
placed magical -> placed a magical
take that his -> take his

S12
for rest of -> for the rest of
once for all -> once and for all
was worthier enemy -> was a worthier enemy
all suffering -> all the suffering
cave home -> cave home.
on lich-lord's skull -> on the lich-lord's skull
seen expression -> seen an expression

Ghost Ship
looking for next -> looking for the next
plans wasn't an -> plans hadn't been an
you are tougher -> you are a tougher

S13
The troll -> The trolls
of sir -> of Sir
known as hero -> known as a/the hero
recorded true -> recorded the true

(I'm done. The replays are the usual place.)
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Telchin
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Telchin »

Version 1.6.1 released. In other words, I've fixed all the typos (and some other issues) found by Konrad2 in his playthrough of this campaign. I've also updated the Czech translation (other translations are probably horribly broken as they no longer recognize the fixed English original).
LienRag
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by LienRag »

I just finished the campaign and enjoyed it, it was fun !
New units, different battle types and tongue-in-cheek dialogs, what's not to like ?

Minor pet peeves : the Tentacles really should not be able to go on land since they are then shown unattached to the Head Master ! Find another unit if you need some that need to go there.
There are so many mollusc species that you should be able to find what you need !

Also, shouldn't the Clams have better protection on seashore ? They can bury themselves in the sand, if I'm not mistaken.
Having one unit strong on seashore would add strategic variety to the campaign.

Telchin wrote: November 11th, 2019, 6:55 pm
-In the last scenario, Master Sea Head has the "battle healing" ability however it doesn't seem to take effect
I've tested it and it works for me. Did you atttack only undead units with him? I've coded the ability to only work on living units.
Well, then that should be explained somewhere somehow...

Also, the Globster isn't obvious to understand at all. There probably should be an explanation for its peculiarities somewhere.

Telchin wrote: November 11th, 2019, 6:55 pm
-In the last scenario, it looked set for a massive climatic battle but then around turn 6 (when he runs out of gold) the enemy boss charges my troops and get surround by three Triple Tentacle and that's all she wrote.
Admittedly it's true that the scenario can be "feast or famine" depending of wheter Ravyan does the tactical suicide he did in your case. It's true that the scenario was meant to be more of a climactic battle (which is why I added those triggers that spawn additional units for him on turns 3, 6 and 9). In fact in the very first version of the campaign (way back in BfW 1.8) the last scenario was "High Risk, Low Tide" and Rayan was killed there (Sosarix didn't exist in that version), but it was very anti-climactic end for the apparent main antagonist, which is why I added "Burial at Sea" as a final battle (and the whole Sosarix subplot, so I had a bad guy to replace Ravyan in "High Risk, Low Tide").
Tactical suicide by leaders (not only here but also with Sosarix the scenario before, he came on the village near the shore and was killed on turn 5) makes the scenarios totally unbalanced. Maybe have the important and not invulnerable leaders have the "passive" trait ?
At least until a trigger is activated so they're not entirely passive for the whole scenario, which isn't really fun either ?
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Telchin
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Telchin »

I just finished the campaign and enjoyed it, it was fun !
New units, different battle types and tongue-in-cheek dialogs, what's not to like ?
Hi, LienRag, I'm glad you enjyoed my campaign. I'm sorry for a late reply, but given that there haven't been new replies for a year, I don't check the thread as often as I did previously.
the Tentacles really should not be able to go on land since they are then shown unattached to the Head Master ! Find another unit if you need some that need to go there.
There are so many mollusc species that you should be able to find what you need !
The bottleneck here is sprites - I lack artistic skills to make a good-looking sprite from scratch, so unless someone makes a new unit sprite for me (as happened with the Giant Clam line), all custom units are based on mainline sprites (this is also why the healer unit is just a recolored tentacle). At the same time it wouldn't be a good gameplay if half your units couldn't pursue enemies on dry land. So just imagine that Master Sea Head's tentacles are still connected to him, but are really long. ;)
Also, shouldn't the Clams have better protection on seashore ? They can bury themselves in the sand, if I'm not mistaken.
Having one unit strong on seashore would add strategic variety to the campaign.
This is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure if clams need extra defense, given that they already have high resistances.
Also, the Globster isn't obvious to understand at all. There probably should be an explanation for its peculiarities somewhere.
By peculiarities you probably mean its lack of "swarm" special. I understand that it might not be intuitive that it lacks a typical ability of its line, but I figured that players would understand that it's an advantage (as "swarm" is actually a drawback) and I added the "plague" special, so the Globster doesn't just "lose" abilities upon level up.
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Atreides »

I always imagined the tentacles as just being the ends of long appendages and that he was gigantic.
LienRag
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by LienRag »

Atreides wrote: April 10th, 2023, 8:23 pm I always imagined the tentacles as just being the ends of long appendages and that he was gigantic.
Yes, that's the idea as explained in the second scenario (IIRC). But the thing is that on land, the tentacles are shown as being cut from anything else, you can't pretend that "they're attached to the rest of the tentacle under the water, where you can't see the link".

I guess that because of the Sprite limitation that the creator explained, the best way if they really need to go on land would to have them become sessile tentacles ? Mollusks clearly don't have sessile parts, that's more a Cnidarian or a Ctenarian thing, but this campaign is not exactly a scientific lesson in marine biology so with a bit of handwaving it coud work.


Telchin wrote: April 10th, 2023, 7:55 am At the same time it wouldn't be a good gameplay if half your units couldn't pursue enemies on dry land.
I disagree with that, the player just would have to make a good use of the other half of his units.
It would certainly need rebalancing of the scenarios, but it's not per se a problem. It actually could be tactically interesting.

While we're at it, I'm not sure that "magic tentacles" are such a great idea. It's more interesting to have to play differently than to just get the same set of units than in any factions, just named differently.
Obviously not having them would be a huge difference, and all the scenarios would need to be redesigned completely.

Another point : if you ever get help on the sprite work, pistol shrimps would be thematically very nice to add to the campaign. They could also maybe replace the "pearl" ranged attack of clams which is quite wacky.

Also I guess that lobsters or any unit that sheds its carapace could be interesting to have.
Hermit crabs would be really nice too if you have the WML skills to design their shell-stealing behavior.

Telchin wrote: April 10th, 2023, 7:55 am
Also, shouldn't the Clams have better protection on seashore ? They can bury themselves in the sand, if I'm not mistaken.
Having one unit strong on seashore would add strategic variety to the campaign.
This is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure if clams need extra defense, given that they already have high resistances.
Defense and resistance are two different things, and (repeating myself) having units which prefer different terrains to fight on adds strategic variety to the campaign.


Telchin wrote: April 10th, 2023, 7:55 am
Also, the Globster isn't obvious to understand at all. There probably should be an explanation for its peculiarities somewhere.
By peculiarities you probably mean its lack of "swarm" special. I understand that it might not be intuitive that it lacks a typical ability of its line, but I figured that players would understand that it's an advantage (as "swarm" is actually a drawback) and I added the "plague" special, so the Globster doesn't just "lose" abilities upon level up.
Well, just add a line of dialogue somewhere, preferably before the player levels one of its Kraken. Especially since "plague" is an undead's characteristic and makes no sense for a mollusc; if you want to use some toxin-related zombification it's way better to explain it somehow so it doesn't break the suspension of disbelief.


Note : i put a few remarks in the scenario-specific threads of your campaign, if you're interested. No pressure, you don't have to answer to any of them, just in case you'd want to look at them.
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Telchin
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Telchin »

But the thing is that on land, the tentacles are shown as being cut from anything else, you can't pretend that "they're attached to the rest of the tentacle under the water, where you can't see the link".
Maybe I could add a halo depicting a hole to the tentacle's sprite when on land (just like they have waves under them when in water) so you could imagine that the "link" is burrowed underground. Would subterranean tentacles violate your suspension of disbelief more or less than the current state?
I disagree with that, the player just would have to make a good use of the other half of his units.
It would certainly need rebalancing of the scenarios, but it's not per se a problem. It actually could be tactically interesting.
I understand this idea and the more water-heavy scenarios might not be affected much, but I'm afraid that some scenarios might become much harder this way (or at least more luck-based) and I don't have the time to rebalance the whole campaign right now (as you probaly figured from me not updating the campaign in a while).
Defense and resistance are two different things,
I know this, but they both (along with health) contribute to a unit's survivability, so I was afraid that a unit with good values in both might be too strong. That said a small upgrade to Giant Clams's resistence just in sand (40%? 50%?) probably wouldn't break anything.
Especially since "plague" is an undead's characteristic and makes no sense for a mollusc; if you want to use some toxin-related zombification it's way better to explain it somehow so it doesn't break the suspension of disbelief.
I agree that "plague" is weird, but I wanted to add an ability that wasn't used by a different unit and didn't feel too powerful (as the unit already loses the "swarm" drawback). Do you have an idea for a more sensible weapon special that fits those conditions?
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by LienRag »

Telchin wrote: April 24th, 2023, 3:31 pm Maybe I could add a halo depicting a hole to the tentacle's sprite when on land (just like they have waves under them when in water) so you could imagine that the "link" is burrowed underground. Would subterranean tentacles violate your suspension of disbelief more or less than the current state?
If it's well done (including an explanation, and maybe an illustration), probably less than the current state (since it's a quite low bar)....

Telchin wrote: April 24th, 2023, 3:31 pm I agree that "plague" is weird, but I wanted to add an ability that wasn't used by a different unit and didn't feel too powerful (as the unit already loses the "swarm" drawback). Do you have an idea for a more sensible weapon special that fits those conditions?

I do not as of now, but as I wrote the main problem is the absence of any explanation.
Having a line of dialog somewhere explaining the Globster upgrade, and probably going with a toxin-based explanation for the zombification, should do the trick.
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Telchin »

If it's well done (including an explanation, and maybe an illustration),
If I'm painting it myself, "done well" might be too high of a bar. :oops: I still decided to give it a try and attached the result. It features two types of holes - a yellow round one for use on sand and a black jagged one for use on solid land. Note that I included only the basic tentacles, because I want to know if this this idea is viable before tackling double/triple tentacles (should they have multiple holes or a sigle bigger hole?)
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LienRag
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by LienRag »

It's a bit better indeed...
But wouldn't going for sessile tentacles a simpler solution ?
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Telchin
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Telchin »

But wouldn't going for sessile tentacles a simpler solution ?
If I understand your idea correctly, you suggest to reframe the tentacles as independant organisms (some sort of mollusc-based quasi-anemone), rather that arms of a bigger creature. I'll be honest - this sounds even more implausible to me than the current tentacles with an invisible link to Master Sea Head. And speaking of Master Sea Head, he is named so because he is the head the tentacles are supposed to be connected, which is also why he as a in-game unit doesn't have tentacle attacks unlike regular cuttlefish (because his tentacles are separarate units for game purposes). If the tentacles are completely separate creatures from him, then his concept would have to be remade too and I don't find that worth the effort. :hmm:
I apologize if that sounds too negative - I'm grateful for any feedback and i'm willing to act on players' suggestions to make the campaign better, but I don't think that "sessile tentacles" are the way to go. I'm more willing to either implement the "holes" solution or just leave them as they are.
I've also thought about your idea to add some dialogue explaining the Globster's abilities, but I'm not sure where such explanation should be done. It's an level 3 promotion of a level 1 unit that is avaible since the 1st scenario. Explaing it there might be premature (the player already has to familiarize themselves with the units present, no need to confuse them with their upgraded forms), but in later scenarios it might feel out of place or even too late (if the player somehow feeds XP to a cuttlefish to promote it faster than expected). Maybe I could add it whenever the player first promotes a young cuttlefish to a cuttlefish, but I'm not sure I can code it in a way that wouldn't trigger every scenario (as that would be redundant and annoying).
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Konrad2 »

Telchin wrote: May 9th, 2023, 3:14 pm I've also thought about your idea to add some dialogue explaining the Globster's abilities, but I'm not sure where such explanation should be done. It's an level 3 promotion of a level 1 unit that is avaible since the 1st scenario. Explaing it there might be premature (the player already has to familiarize themselves with the units present, no need to confuse them with their upgraded forms), but in later scenarios it might feel out of place or even too late (if the player somehow feeds XP to a cuttlefish to promote it faster than expected). Maybe I could add it whenever the player first promotes a young cuttlefish to a cuttlefish, but I'm not sure I can code it in a way that wouldn't trigger every scenario (as that would be redundant and annoying).
While I do not know how it is implemented, I believe I've seen explanations trigger upon advancing to a kind of unit for the first time, scenario independent.
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Telchin »

While I do not know how it is implemented, I believe I've seen explanations trigger upon advancing to a kind of unit for the first time, scenario independent.
I believe I've found how to implement this - create a variable that persists for the whole campaign and an event that is included in all scenarios and is conditional on that variable (so it won't trigger again after the first time). Can anybody confirm that works?
That said, I've also thought about changing the Globster's weapon special into something other than plague, but I'm really picky about what could fit better:
  • Magic, marksmanship, poison, slow and swarm are out because they're already used by other units (and in swarm's case the whole purpose of the Globster is to have a cuttlefish unit without swarm).
  • Abilities that increase damage (like backstab or charge) are out because with them the Globster would overshadow the Kraken in damage output. The Kraken is meant to be the "brute force" promotion of the Cuttlefish, with Globster the more reliable but initially weaker option.
  • Berserk is out because that would make the Globster just replace one drawback with another one.
  • Drain doesn't feel right, as the reason for possibly replacing plague is that it's too associated with the undead and that's true for drain too. Admittedly I already use it on one sea creature in the campaign (the Lamprey) but if I were to add it to a cuttlefish-like unit, I would add it to one with swarm for synergy.
  • Abilities that add status effects on impact might be too powerful as the Globster has 10 strikes, which would almost guarantee the status to trigger. How overpowered that is depends on the status in question, so I don't count them out yet.
Maybe an ability that only works on defense (e.g. first strike), so it doesn't impact the Globster's offensive use?
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Re: Inky's Quest - The Cuttlefish Campaign

Post by Konrad2 »

Telchin wrote: May 10th, 2023, 2:40 pm [*]Drain doesn't feel right, as the reason for possibly replacing plague is that it's too associated with the undead and that's true for drain too. Admittedly I already use it on one sea creature in the campaign (the Lamprey) but if I were to add it to a cuttlefish-like unit, I would add it to one with swarm for synergy.
I think drain is viable, as for plague there is no explanation possible/given without use of necromancy, while drain is achievable by other beings without the use of necromancy, e.g. by Bats.
+ I think you misread why there is a discussion about the plague ability. It's not so much that it is associated with undead, it's that it's non-standard, and that there is no explanation given for this.
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