Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
51
21%
Reaper
28
12%
Scythemaster
20
8%
Shadowalker
17
7%
Shadow Prince
19
8%
Siege Troll
11
5%
Sky Goblin
4
2%
Snow Hunter
20
8%
Soul Shooter
5
2%
Swordmaster
28
12%
Troll Boulderlobber
2
1%
Warlock
24
10%
Werewolf Rider
5
2%
Zombie Rider
7
3%
 
Total votes: 241

white_haired_uncle
Posts: 1093
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Location: A country place, far outside the Wire

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

Looks like The Library/Lost in Space is still/again broken. I'm stuck. 3.2.6.193.ged6c209/1.15.15

EDIT: In chapter 6, I have a Champion Bowman with Konrad's Might bow and marksman,marksman.
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white_haired_uncle
Posts: 1093
Joined: August 26th, 2018, 11:46 pm
Location: A country place, far outside the Wire

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

Attack the phoenix with the champion bowman's fire breathe attack. You have a 100% chance to hit, but never will.

The duke can hit him, but poison has no effect.

Curious if it was immune to poison, I clicked on 'Phoenix' on the right side of the screen. While mouse-over got me some basic info, the help said the unit was unknown at the moment. So I right-clicked on the unit itself, and pulled up the description.

EDIT: At the beginning of Apologies, Efraim has redeem but Unit Information shows soul eater (hmm, will this change after my first redeem? Yep, though it still shows soul eater).
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masterpace
Posts: 27
Joined: June 30th, 2021, 5:49 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by masterpace »

white_haired_uncle wrote: November 11th, 2021, 9:38 pm Attack the phoenix with the champion bowman's fire breathe attack. You have a 100% chance to hit, but never will.
The phoenix wouldn't get hit because this scenario is in Chillhold, where fires can not exist, including fire attacks.
dwarftough
Posts: 478
Joined: August 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

white_haired_uncle wrote: November 11th, 2021, 9:38 pm At the beginning of Apologies, Efraim has redeem but Unit Information shows soul eater
If you ate some souls before transformation, the counter will persist and be shown (although it doesn't affect anything)
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 9th, 2021, 1:19 am Looks like The Library/Lost in Space is still/again broken. I'm stuck. 3.2.6.193.ged6c209/1.15.15
Damn, this thing seems broken on 1.15-1.16 but works alright on 1.14. I understand now why I couldn't reproduce it year ago (you reported it back then, but you were on 1.15 and I was on 1.14).
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 8th, 2021, 9:02 pm Nasty error trying to when I click on 'Select weapons for retaliation'. See attached.
'Select weapons for retaliation' should've been fixed in the latest beta. I don't see any error. Are you still seeing any?
Co-founder and current maintainer of IsarFoundation, Afterlife Rated and overall Wesnoth Autohost Project
Developer and maintainer of my fork of World Conquest, Invincibles Conquest II
white_haired_uncle
Posts: 1093
Joined: August 26th, 2018, 11:46 pm
Location: A country place, far outside the Wire

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dwarftough wrote: November 13th, 2021, 6:51 pm
'Select weapons for retaliation' should've been fixed in the latest beta. I don't see any error. Are you still seeing any?
Just tried 3.2.6.204.gc4650cc and it's working now, thanks.
venel.PNG
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EDIT: In Annihilation I can build and igloo/encampment, but that's probably because I :n Arctic Wastelands.

FINALLY, in the first scenario of chapter 8, I actually recruited my first loyal unit! A walking corpse, of course.
dwarftough
Posts: 478
Joined: August 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

nickname_Destroyer was fixed.
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 9th, 2021, 1:19 am Looks like The Library/Lost in Space is still/again broken. I'm stuck. 3.2.6.193.ged6c209/1.15.15
That's a bug in Wesnoth itself, as I find out
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 4th, 2021, 11:38 pm as I keep leaving enemies to die from incinerate and not getting anything for it.
You should get. Ocasionally folks say xp for incinerate doesn't work but to my experience it works. Or is it again broken in 1.16, works in 1.14?
Co-founder and current maintainer of IsarFoundation, Afterlife Rated and overall Wesnoth Autohost Project
Developer and maintainer of my fork of World Conquest, Invincibles Conquest II
white_haired_uncle
Posts: 1093
Joined: August 26th, 2018, 11:46 pm
Location: A country place, far outside the Wire

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

I tested it before posting, and I wasn't getting XP from incinerate at the time. I just went back and tried some saves (though I'm using a newer beta than was available then) and I can't reproduce it. I know I've seen this before. But I have to admit, I play on ludicrous speed,so it's possible that the unit got killed by one of my allies (or a monster) and then the ally/monster got killed and it all happened so fast I missed it, or the enemy suicided, or something.
dwarftough wrote: November 14th, 2021, 10:37 pm
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 9th, 2021, 1:19 am Looks like The Library/Lost in Space is still/again broken. I'm stuck. 3.2.6.193.ged6c209/1.15.15
That's a bug in Wesnoth itself, as I find out
Do you know what will happen when the fix comes out (can I go back to turn 0 of The Library and play forward)? Or is it possible to hack a save file to work around the issue?

FWIW, I can't reproduce this, but something interesting happened in the arena. It said I killed the dracolich and moved on to the next phase, when I hadn't. [Turn 12 save precedes turn 1 save].
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imaginary
Posts: 5
Joined: October 29th, 2021, 4:15 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginary »

Well here it is, the tier list. Inside it I have included an the details on how and why they are being ranked in the way that they are. Below an explanation for every single unit and why I choose the tiers that I choose. The explanation is intended to be read from top down, but I've put it into segments encase you want to just read what I have to say about a specific unit. The details I put into each descriptions varies, some are super brief and others are like mini reviews on the unit a few paragraphs long; I had to do this because of the character count limit. Feel free to ask any questions on the tier list since I did have to leave some of my thoughts out, I do have more to say.

I've also used this as a chance to change my username to simply Imaginary.

Screenshot from 2021-11-16 13-01-18.png
Elvish assassin
Spoiler:
Elder mage
Spoiler:
Destroyer
Spoiler:
Champion
Spoiler:
Duke
Spoiler:
A tier

Battlerager
Spoiler:
Dwarvish Protector and Duelist Wizard
Spoiler:

Faerie Incarnation
Spoiler:
Dragon Rider
Spoiler:

Lunatic knight
Spoiler:
Siege Troll
Spoiler:
B+ tier

Nightprowler
Spoiler:
Elvish Gryphon Rider
Spoiler:
Swordmaster
Spoiler:
Exterminator
Spoiler:
Warlock
Spoiler:
Scythemaster
Spoiler:
Dwarvish Technocrat
Spoiler:
Prophet
Spoiler:
B tier

Ancient lich, Demilich and Lich King
Spoiler:
Dwarvish Hero
Spoiler:
Elvish Juggernaut
Spoiler:
Elvish Seer
Spoiler:
Champion Bowman
Spoiler:

Celestial messenger
Spoiler:
Shadowalker
Spoiler:
Elvish Overlord
Spoiler:
C tier

Reaper
Spoiler:
Inferno Knight
Spoiler:
Predator
Spoiler:
Pilum master
Spoiler:
Elvish Warlord
Spoiler:
Snow Hunter
Spoiler:
Blackguard
Spoiler:
D tier

Abomination
Spoiler:
Dark shade
Spoiler:
Deathlord
Spoiler:
Zombie Rider
Spoiler:
Phantom
Spoiler:
Arch necromancer
Spoiler:
Troll Boulderlobber
Spoiler:
Shadow Prince
Spoiler:
Chaos Rider
Spoiler:
Grim Knight
Spoiler:
Soul shooter
Spoiler:
Forester
Spoiler:
Former username: imaginarypotato
white_haired_uncle
Posts: 1093
Joined: August 26th, 2018, 11:46 pm
Location: A country place, far outside the Wire

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

You should try to find a place on the wiki for that, I'm sure some people have some differing opinions.

BTW, I notice you say the prophet "damage is not great". What do you consider average, or even great? Personally, several hundred to a couple thousand per turn usually gets the job done for me.
AlphaTitan
Posts: 2
Joined: November 16th, 2021, 11:03 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by AlphaTitan »

I find your tier list breakdown quite compelling, and overall I think that I substantially agree. There are a few points that I think your analysis may have missed significant advantages that I'm curious to hear your thoughts on. Also the level of time and detail you've put into the explanations is quite impressive.

First of all, I agree with you assessment of lawful trumping chaotic, but there is a strategy concept that can be very powerful that you didn't mention, and that is using units that darken plus nightstalk. I'm not advocating it is an S tier strategy, but the flexibility can prove very powerful for splitting enemies as a distraction and then disappearing, or to assassinate enemy leaders. This approach to me warrants mention on all units that can get nightstalk/darkens and also helps to enable some of the backstab mechanics that these naturally chaotic units have. For this purpose Blackguard in particular can 'shine' (pun intended). Blackguard does compete with destroyer, but on its own merits, I feel you've underrated him. Just like how a griffon rider could have been an assassin, it doesn't mean the rider is terrible, the blackguard with upgrades to damage and when doing his charging-backstab is better that I think you give him credit. not argument on the fact he takes more work that a destroyer to get there for the reccord.

On the flip side, I find having 1-2 Celestial Messengers with max illumination to be devastatingly strong in a lawful build for the super buff aura effect and the fact that many enemies are vulnerable to time of day modifications. I think they deserve at least B+ and possibly low A tier for that alone. Their role as secondary healer, and the fact that you can get bonus points for promoting paladins for the weapon slots means that their speed, resistances, or magic damage is highly compelling.

Another point I found a significant difference in opinion was the baneblade. Overall, undead are decidedly underwhelming but this units high universal base dodge and drain are quite strong. Circumventing arcane as a damage type, mostly though arcane pierce or weapon damage types, is certainly its greatest weakness but its self sustain is very strong, its fast, its very hard to hit, and its base damage is respectable.

One point I think got undervalued was the elvish warlord. Since only 1 duke can exist, having another dedicated leadership unit for a longer front line, a split push, or if your only duke dies and you're like me and roll with the punches of the campaign then as the best alt leadership unit with a unique leadership aura deserves a higher tier than C. I think B tier, with tentative B+ in the absence of the duke would be fair.

The last place I felt my rankings differ with you is the dwarven Hero. One ability that did not get mentioned was that his hammer can become a magical. A magical accuracy melee strike is very strong and the fact that the hammer is built more towards few powerful hits can be empowered through extra attack stacks. also, hammers/maces are honestly among the strongest occurring weapon types. A glaring lack of speed is a huge pain, but the sheer HP, damage, accuracy, and resistances make him a fantastic melee bruiser that feels like a high-end A tier.

As a side note, the idea of loading up quintessence's on a lich convert is a beautiful idea that I am extremely excited to use in my current run.

I hope the fact the I agree with MANY of your placements is not missed, and to be honest you sold me on a few units that I've neglected.
AlphaTitan
Posts: 2
Joined: November 16th, 2021, 11:03 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by AlphaTitan »

On a completely unrelated note, for the purpose of build testing is there a way to generate item drops or gem drops via debug or console commands?
imaginary
Posts: 5
Joined: October 29th, 2021, 4:15 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginary »

white_haired_uncle wrote: November 17th, 2021, 12:08 am You should try to find a place on the wiki for that, I'm sure some people have some differing opinions.

BTW, I notice you say the prophet "damage is not great". What do you consider average, or even great? Personally, several hundred to a couple thousand per turn usually gets the job done for me.
I'm not sure if this would fit on the wiki, since I don't think its likely that the tier list will stay accurate if loti gets enough updates. I would be happy to put builds for the high tier units on their though (I've not edited the wiki before so I'm not 100% sure how that works)

I considered it not great, relative to the other units. 9-5 melee sword is slightly below average melee damage (which is 10-5) and it being arcane is also bad. Same thing goes with the lance, its 1 less strike then the other (good) horseman units. Of course the Prophet still can get the job done, I just wanted to highlight that the weaker firepower is the main flaw with the unit.

AlphaTitan wrote: November 17th, 2021, 12:39 am I find your tier list breakdown quite compelling, and overall I think that I substantially agree. There are a few points that I think your analysis may have missed significant advantages that I'm curious to hear your thoughts on. Also the level of time and detail you've put into the explanations is quite impressive.

First of all, I agree with you assessment of lawful trumping chaotic, but there is a strategy concept that can be very powerful that you didn't mention, and that is using units that darken plus nightstalk. I'm not advocating it is an S tier strategy, but the flexibility can prove very powerful for splitting enemies as a distraction and then disappearing, or to assassinate enemy leaders. This approach to me warrants mention on all units that can get nightstalk/darkens and also helps to enable some of the backstab mechanics that these naturally chaotic units have. For this purpose Blackguard in particular can 'shine' (pun intended). Blackguard does compete with destroyer, but on its own merits, I feel you've underrated him. Just like how a griffon rider could have been an assassin, it doesn't mean the rider is terrible, the blackguard with upgrades to damage and when doing his charging-backstab is better that I think you give him credit. not argument on the fact he takes more work that a destroyer to get there for the reccord.

On the flip side, I find having 1-2 Celestial Messengers with max illumination to be devastatingly strong in a lawful build for the super buff aura effect and the fact that many enemies are vulnerable to time of day modifications. I think they deserve at least B+ and possibly low A tier for that alone. Their role as secondary healer, and the fact that you can get bonus points for promoting paladins for the weapon slots means that their speed, resistances, or magic damage is highly compelling.

Another point I found a significant difference in opinion was the baneblade. Overall, undead are decidedly underwhelming but this units high universal base dodge and drain are quite strong. Circumventing arcane as a damage type, mostly though arcane pierce or weapon damage types, is certainly its greatest weakness but its self sustain is very strong, its fast, its very hard to hit, and its base damage is respectable.

One point I think got undervalued was the elvish warlord. Since only 1 duke can exist, having another dedicated leadership unit for a longer front line, a split push, or if your only duke dies and you're like me and roll with the punches of the campaign then as the best alt leadership unit with a unique leadership aura deserves a higher tier than C. I think B tier, with tentative B+ in the absence of the duke would be fair.

The last place I felt my rankings differ with you is the dwarven Hero. One ability that did not get mentioned was that his hammer can become a magical. A magical accuracy melee strike is very strong and the fact that the hammer is built more towards few powerful hits can be empowered through extra attack stacks. also, hammers/maces are honestly among the strongest occurring weapon types. A glaring lack of speed is a huge pain, but the sheer HP, damage, accuracy, and resistances make him a fantastic melee bruiser that feels like a high-end A tier.

As a side note, the idea of loading up quintessence's on a lich convert is a beautiful idea that I am extremely excited to use in my current run.

I hope the fact the I agree with MANY of your placements is not missed, and to be honest you sold me on a few units that I've neglected.
I did not mention the darken + nightstalk strategy since there was a lack of space I was already super close to the character limit and only got to cover a few unique strategy. I've used that on the Exterminator and Technocrat before its pretty great (the Dagger of Sicarii is an item that gives you that combo and its busted). The blackguard does pair well with other chaotic units and is defiantly a good pick when used with a mostly chaotic team. I just feel that as a whole most of the chaotic units are weak so its hard to pick the blackguard since can debuff your other units where as others you can position were ever you want.. I'm acutally planning on doing an only chaotic challenge run of the game, I'm expecting to use a few blackguards there so maybe my opinion on it might get better.

C is not a bad rank for the tier list, it just means that I think the units require special care or the right circumstances to be effective. None of the C tier units are there for being awful but rather the difficulty of using them. For example its way easier to use a destroyer and get results then it is to create some specific strategies to make the blackguards strong.

The warlord could be a B+ tier unit in a vacuum, its just that the tier list is directly comparing the units to each other and as long as the duke is alive the warlord has much more limited value. Plus there are a few units that also have level 5 leadership like the dragon rider to consider to (although they all take upgrades to unlock it and don't have the bonus abilities)

I should of mentioned that the hero's hammer attack was magical since that does come into play often. To be honest it was the last description I made and I just wanted to be done with it so I kept it brief. I do still think its a B tier unit, for the same reasons you think its good; I just value it a bit less. Personally I'm finding myself wanting to use units like destroyer, siege troll and swordsmaster as my bulkier front line attackers since they hit harder. I never did get a Dwarf hero with a good legacy though, maybe I'll think its a bit better if I do. I've only done so much testing after all, this tier list during production as gone through many changes, the Dwarvish hero acutally started at C tier but I bumped it up later.
Former username: imaginarypotato
white_haired_uncle
Posts: 1093
Joined: August 26th, 2018, 11:46 pm
Location: A country place, far outside the Wire

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

This is standing alone with no leadership or other help from other units. I also haven't taken the AMLAs yet to improve charge. If this is weak or even below average, I'm doing something seriously wrong with my other units.
pro2.png
pro3.PNG
Delicius169
Posts: 189
Joined: February 16th, 2015, 5:02 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Delicius169 »

Wow! Nice summary, I never thought that Scythemaster can be usable...

I am just pointing at things I disagree with. I havent played LotI for more than half year, so I am not up with the recent updates.
To me, the legacies are what makes the units strongest, so I carefully pick them.
Also I feel that you are praising the Lighting attack, which I was doing too some time ago, before I have discovered how the resistance penetration rules. You can use units with lot of weapon slots for lot of Marrowrend weapon, to get huge boost. Together with the leadership it adds a greater attack...

Seer - with the Legacy of dark dragon and its boots to arcane penetration, or with the undead legay (leech for meele) was one of my strongest. I believe it can easily get around 60% penetration.

Prophet - to me it is one of the key units in the begining of the part 2. It´s shield ability is crucial to survive the attacks of the enemy demons. I dont use them that much later at game thought.

Exterminator - you havent mentioned the Chaos ability on it´s scythe. It is the only weapon, which can hit multiple enemies at defense. It can make things dangerous for him thought. AS he kills all the adjacent units, who already attacked him, he gives space for few more. I remember him kiling hundren of unit only to die after, because it was too much for him.
Thought if carefully placed with the help of duke he can be really killing machine.
Pocketbacon
Posts: 5
Joined: November 17th, 2021, 11:14 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Pocketbacon »

white_haired_uncle wrote: November 9th, 2021, 1:19 am Looks like The Library/Lost in Space is still/again broken. I'm stuck. 3.2.6.193.ged6c209/1.15.15



Im having the same problem Game just Ends after lost in space with defeat Anyone know a fix for this?

Please Help.
Thanks
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