Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
51
21%
Reaper
28
12%
Scythemaster
20
8%
Shadowalker
17
7%
Shadow Prince
19
8%
Siege Troll
11
5%
Sky Goblin
4
2%
Snow Hunter
20
8%
Soul Shooter
5
2%
Swordmaster
28
12%
Troll Boulderlobber
2
1%
Warlock
24
10%
Werewolf Rider
5
2%
Zombie Rider
7
3%
 
Total votes: 241

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

For BfW1.16 there's only the beta version? Any idea when a stable version might be coming?

Regarding the units: I like to sink a holy sword into the Dragonrider before his final lvl so he has a bonus illumination. I also like to sink any kind of useful sword into my Elvish gryphs. Are those exploits still possible?
I have a cunning plan.
dwarftough
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

Pocketbacon wrote: November 17th, 2021, 11:31 am
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 9th, 2021, 1:19 am Looks like The Library/Lost in Space is still/again broken. I'm stuck. 3.2.6.193.ged6c209/1.15.15

Im having the same problem Game just Ends after lost in space with defeat Anyone know a fix for this?

Please Help.
Thanks
Wesnoth bug, I hope we'll make a workaround in LotI soon, sorry for inconvenience
nuorc wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:37 pm For BfW1.16 there's only the beta version? Any idea when a stable version might be coming?

Regarding the units: I like to sink a holy sword into the Dragonrider before his final lvl so he has a bonus illumination. I also like to sink any kind of useful sword into my Elvish gryphs. Are those exploits still possible?
Stable for 1.16 will be after some time when we see that no critical bugs are here. About sword exploits: yes, this is possible and isn't removed on purpose.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

About the tier-list I discussed with some of my buddies and I have some things we don't agree with.

First, Destroyer isn't so powerful to my taste, I have very powerful berserk on him but still I struggle with him to fight on his own. No retal in range, can't walk on mountains.

Second, I think Snow Hunters deserve much higher place, they can fight one-on-one with demon lords, they can have 5 attacks (with Forestburner sling), they can reach decent damage even on their own, and with leadership it's absolutely crazy. They have an amazing helmet for them which deals 24 cold damage every turn but for them it's neglectible and it gives regen and a lot of other res. They can stand in tier A, on par with Duellist Wizard, maybe even in S, to my taste.

Third, a note from my buddy, berserk (2) would be a bit better than anger for champion.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginary »

white_haired_uncle wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:51 am This is standing alone with no leadership or other help from other units. I also haven't taken the AMLAs yet to improve charge. If this is weak or even below average, I'm doing something seriously wrong with my other units.
With enough items you can make anything (expect maybe some of the D tier units) good. The sword damage in the first photo is weak considering the level the units has, although the lance does make up for it. A lunatic knight hit harder though, of course the Prophet does come with its own benefits that the knight does not have. I'm considering the prophet's sword weak, relative to other swords and the lance weak relative to other lances; since the list is comparing the units directly.

Of course if it's speced into properly the prophet can defiantly achieve damage that is above average. For example I used this prophet with the Violent mage set (the ring is not great though)
Spoiler:
Delicius169 wrote: November 17th, 2021, 7:50 am Wow! Nice summary, I never thought that Scythemaster can be usable...
I am just pointing at things I disagree with. I havent played LotI for more than half year, so I am not up with the recent updates.

To me, the legacies are what makes the units strongest, so I carefully pick them.
Also I feel that you are praising the Lighting attack, which I was doing too some time ago, before I have discovered how the resistance penetration rules. You can use units with lot of weapon slots for lot of Marrowrend weapon, to get huge boost. Together with the leadership it adds a greater attack...

Seer - with the Legacy of dark dragon and its boots to arcane penetration, or with the undead legay (leech for meele) was one of my strongest. I believe it can easily get around 60% penetration.

Prophet - to me it is one of the key units in the begining of the part 2. It´s shield ability is crucial to survive the attacks of the enemy demons. I dont use them that much later at game thought.

Exterminator - you havent mentioned the Chaos ability on it´s scythe. It is the only weapon, which can hit multiple enemies at defense. It can make things dangerous for him thought. AS he kills all the adjacent units, who already attacked him, he gives space for few more. I remember him kiling hundren of unit only to die after, because it was too much for him.
Thought if carefully placed with the help of duke he can be really killing machine.
Legacy of the dark dragon is for sure the best one for the seer. I just did not want to account for matching specific leagcys on the tier list (I accounted for their existence though, so the undead not having them does hurt their rank) since your not guaranteed to get a useful one it makes ranking them pretty much impossible. For example a dragon rider with legacy of the free is basically just a better lunatic knight, but is that a really fair thing to do since the knight would also have to be able to pick out its own legacy and what would that be? You would have to mash together hundreds of combinations to find out the right ones and it would be hard to do that in practice anyways.

Chaos is strong, its just that the exterminator is not very tanky so it can't use it forever. This tierlist is largely judging units based on how they do in hard mode, were things like chaos are a lot worse.
dwarftough wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:04 pm About the tier-list I discussed with some of my buddies and I have some things we don't agree with.

First, Destroyer isn't so powerful to my taste, I have very powerful berserk on him but still I struggle with him to fight on his own. No retal in range, can't walk on mountains.

Second, I think Snow Hunters deserve much higher place, they can fight one-on-one with demon lords, they can have 5 attacks (with Forestburner sling), they can reach decent damage even on their own, and with leadership it's absolutely crazy. They have an amazing helmet for them which deals 24 cold damage every turn but for them it's neglectible and it gives regen and a lot of other res. They can stand in tier A, on par with Duellist Wizard, maybe even in S, to my taste.

Third, a note from my buddy, berserk (2) would be a bit better than anger for champion.
The destroyer does need help to prevent it from being surrounded and killed by ranged attacks, but pretty much any unit needs support. I don't think its unreasonable to have the destroyer be part of a line of units that stops ranged units from focusing down one of them. The mountains thing does kind of suck I'll give you that, but it's not like there are that many mountains in the campaign that are blocking pathways most of them are just on the edges of the maps.

Lesser berserk is great in champion, but I did not mention it because of my rules. The units are ranked based on how they do in general rather then if given a perfect load out, berserk is super rare however anger you can always get through crafting. Last time I played, I wanted to get the beserk helmet for my champion but I never found a single one the whole campaign (did not get a wraith book ether). That did not stop the champion from being good, it still consistently killed what I wanted it to and never died once.

The same thing goes with that What no man should know helmet for the snow elf. Its a specific item that you could just not find even once, its not really fair to be ranking units based on what their best possible load outs could be. If I did that then all of the sudden everything becomes an S tier. I mentioned it benefiting extra from leadership, but the duke can make any unit strong; before inferno its a viable strategy to just power up like 20 walking corpses with one. Every unit would ideally want a duke backing them up, so I cannot really have that accounted for in the tier list as a main selling point for the unit (I brought it up as a combo with explosion, but for those units I still felt that they stood their ground on their own without the leadership boosts). For me the snow hunter is a slightly weaker swordsman, that I can rely on to not die to inferno chill; for that role I considered it to be good enough to be a C tier unit one that can be good if used properly but has flaws that prevent a higher placement.
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dwarftough
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

imaginary wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:40 pm Every unit would ideally want a duke backing them up, so I cannot really have that accounted for in the tier list as a main selling point for the unit (I brought it up as a combo with explosion, but for those units I still felt that they stood their ground on their own without the leadership boosts). For me the snow hunter is a slightly weaker swordsman, that I can rely on to not die to inferno chill;
Snow Hunter is at least B, you underestimate their damage, you say it's a weakened Swordmaster, but how much xp you need to get a swordmaster or (if we compare in the category of resistant units) Duellist Wizard and how many advancements can be taken by a Snow Hunter at the same time. About Duke buff: if all units need it, it can be noted that for Snow Hunter it gives +100% from leadership 6 while base damage of snow hunter with several upgrades is comparable to 3-4 lvls, while 3-4 lvls have only 50-75% buff. And this is with incredible survivability and also, even if you don't have the specific snow helmet, you can trade cold res with others items, so flexibility in items choosing.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

dwarftough wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:04 pmFirst, Destroyer isn't so powerful to my taste, I have very powerful berserk on him but still I struggle with him to fight on his own. No retal in range, can't walk on mountains.
I always used to take a pair of Destroyers along. (I just love their hitting sound! :D )

Units with a weak legacy I ditch anyway, when I wanted to keep a Destroyer even with a legacy without ranged attack I gave 'em a book.

For mountains I just hope for the fitting boots. I remember only one map where a mountain range would really stop my Destroyers from progressing, but since there's a keep just behind I had a gryph deliver teleportation boots...
I have a cunning plan.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginary »

dwarftough wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:27 pm
imaginary wrote: November 17th, 2021, 3:40 pm Every unit would ideally want a duke backing them up, so I cannot really have that accounted for in the tier list as a main selling point for the unit (I brought it up as a combo with explosion, but for those units I still felt that they stood their ground on their own without the leadership boosts). For me the snow hunter is a slightly weaker swordsman, that I can rely on to not die to inferno chill;
Snow Hunter is at least B, you underestimate their damage, you say it's a weakened Swordmaster, but how much xp you need to get a swordmaster or (if we compare in the category of resistant units) Duellist Wizard and how many advancements can be taken by a Snow Hunter at the same time. About Duke buff: if all units need it, it can be noted that for Snow Hunter it gives +100% from leadership 6 while base damage of snow hunter with several upgrades is comparable to 3-4 lvls, while 3-4 lvls have only 50-75% buff. And this is with incredible survivability and also, even if you don't have the specific snow helmet, you can trade cold res with others items, so flexibility in items choosing.
The XP cost is not too distant. Swordsmaster needs a minimal of 8 level ups to max out its upgrades, or 10 if you want the bonus sword strike. Snow elf needs 11 to get all of its upgrades or 12 if you want its bonus sword strike. Of course you would want more XP on top of them both to get things like your legacy and more movement speed. Now you could not go for blizzard on the snow elf which brings your minimal upgrades down to 5, but thats sacrificing potential utility. I can also make the argument that you might not want doom on swordsmaster since another unit has it which would bring down the swordmaster's minimal xp too. Duelist wizard needs a minimal of 5 upgrades to get its absorbs + retribution and the rest is just extra.

The thing is that its damage is on the lower side, it starts at 7-4 (or 8-5 with the first upgrade) and its being compared to the starting point for swords which is 10-5 (swordmaster has 10-6 + struggle). Leadership does close the gap, but units need to be able to not rely on it to score high.

However I don't think its unreasonable to put it in B rank, its just my opinion that its C.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dwarftough wrote: November 17th, 2021, 4:27 pm
Snow Hunter is at least B, you underestimate their damage, you say it's a weakened Swordmaster, but how much xp you need to get a swordmaster or (if we compare in the category of resistant units) Duellist Wizard and how many advancements can be taken by a Snow Hunter at the same time. About Duke buff: if all units need it, it can be noted that for Snow Hunter it gives +100% from leadership 6 while base damage of snow hunter with several upgrades is comparable to 3-4 lvls, while 3-4 lvls have only 50-75% buff. And this is with incredible survivability and also, even if you don't have the specific snow helmet, you can trade cold res with others items, so flexibility in items choosing.
Agree. I recently had a SH with 27x6x5 lightning damage with trickery. Sure, it's less than 1000/turn without any leadership or such, but now I know how I could have gotten him wrath.

I also like to have a SH deliver the killing blow to BZB.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Pocketbacon »

How do i access the 1.16 Beta version , maybe that will fix my game im really wanting to finish the whole game asap.

Or how do i skip the lost in space chapter so I can keep going with my game?
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

Pocketbacon wrote: November 17th, 2021, 9:04 pm How do i access the 1.16 Beta version , maybe that will fix my game im really wanting to finish the whole game asap.

Or how do i skip the lost in space chapter so I can keep going with my game?
Don't you play on the beta if you have 1.16?
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

Efraim has Mental Sheath (absorbs 1) and Dugi's Ward (absorbs 3), and has taken absorbs from AMLA twice. I was hoping he'd get absorbs(6), which isn't really fair at all, but I'd at least think he'd get the highest (3) from DW.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

white_haired_uncle wrote: November 18th, 2021, 4:07 am I was hoping he'd get absorbs(6), which isn't really fair at all, but I'd at least think he'd get the highest (3) from DW
Absorption doesn't stack
Pocketbacon wrote: November 17th, 2021, 1:37 pm
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 18th, 2021, 4:07 am
Great news, guys! The fix of Lethalia's bug in The Library > Lost In Space transition has been merged and should be found in the latest beta for 1.16. To apply play the scenario The Library from the scenario start
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dwarftough wrote: November 18th, 2021, 10:11 am
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 18th, 2021, 4:07 am I was hoping he'd get absorbs(6), which isn't really fair at all, but I'd at least think he'd get the highest (3) from DW
Absorption doesn't stack
Still think I should get the 3 from Dugi's Ward vs the 2 from AMLA, though.

EDIT: If you mouse over to see Ef/Leth's level there's an "oops" message (chapter 9).
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

white_haired_uncle wrote: November 18th, 2021, 8:50 pm EDIT: If you mouse over to see Ef/Leth's level there's an "oops" message (chapter 9).
That's okay, it's observable for any max level LotI unit in any chapter. Prob the message could be less confusing though
white_haired_uncle wrote: November 18th, 2021, 8:50 pm Still think I should get the 3 from Dugi's Ward vs the 2 from AMLA, though
So you've got not the max absorb?


Also you reported a premature round win bug in Gladiatrix, it should be fixed now (it was introduced with a patch to prevent softlock if any enemy is shockwaved out of the arena, it checked alive units on the arena but not on all terrains)
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dwarftough wrote: November 19th, 2021, 12:59 am
So you've got not the max absorb?
He's got absorbs(2), which I assume comes from the two "able to heal from" AMLAs, but I think that should be trumped by Dugi's Ward.

BTW, not that I'm complaining, AT ALL, but check out Lilith's cold resistance. It looks like her resistances are supposed to be tripled when defending, but someone forgot to take into account negatives?
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