How do you controll water with undead?

Share and discuss strategies for playing the game, and get help and tips from other players.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
fog_of_gold
Posts: 637
Joined: December 20th, 2009, 5:59 pm
Location: Germany

How do you controll water with undead?

Post by fog_of_gold »

The topic name says everything. There's only one unit that is decently able to move within water and that's the bat. This isn't a serious possiblity.

Just_end_turn
Posts: 71
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by Just_end_turn »

Do you have any problem on some particular map ?

Why do you need to control water ?

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by Velensk »

Ghosts can do decently in water, not great mind you but as long as the lake/river isn't too deep they can work. Against many enemy water units (mermen in particular) skeletons can also do decently at night (even at 20% defense, mermen aren't going to take out skeletons easily).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

monochromatic
Posts: 1549
Joined: June 18th, 2009, 1:45 am

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by monochromatic »

Basically, there is no "water" unit (as in can move though it freely) other than the drakes that can really mess with the undead. For example, Gryphons, Mermen, Naga all have pierce/blade weapons. And drakes have such crappy defenses there that even if you put a skele archer there they most likely won't attack you from fire ranged unless it's day.

Yoyobuae
Posts: 408
Joined: July 24th, 2009, 8:38 pm

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by Yoyobuae »

elvish_sovereign wrote:Basically, there is no "water" unit (as in can move though it freely) other than the drakes that can really mess with the undead. For example, Gryphons, Mermen, Naga all have pierce/blade weapons. And drakes have such crappy defenses there that even if you put a skele archer there they most likely won't attack you from fire ranged unless it's day.
Drake Gliders? Impact melee and they get 40% defense in water since 1.8.

Still, it really depends on whether controlling water is worth the trouble. For example, leaving the water unchecked in Weldyn can lead to some rather annoying village steals with bats. It can also serve as a safe area (from adepts) or as a staging point for attacks for flying drakes.

Or all the fighting happens in land and water control is useless.

User avatar
tr0ll
Posts: 528
Joined: June 11th, 2006, 8:13 pm
Location: canada

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by tr0ll »

in Dead Water there are some zombie or soulless mermen

monochromatic
Posts: 1549
Joined: June 18th, 2009, 1:45 am

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by monochromatic »

Yoyobuae wrote:
elvish_sovereign wrote:Basically, there is no "water" unit (as in can move though it freely) other than the drakes that can really mess with the undead. For example, Gryphons, Mermen, Naga all have pierce/blade weapons. And drakes have such crappy defenses there that even if you put a skele archer there they most likely won't attack you from fire ranged unless it's day.
Drake Gliders? Impact melee and they get 40% defense in water since 1.8.
:? You're the drake master, so you're probably right. But if it were me, even if it were dawn/dusk I would not risk using a Drake burner against a skele archer. Just sayin'.

User avatar
hhyloc
Translator
Posts: 234
Joined: July 6th, 2009, 3:19 am
Location: the netherworld

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by hhyloc »

tr0ll wrote:in Dead Water there are some zombie or soulless mermen

You can make zombie mermen with walking corpses too, not just in Dead Water. :eng:
R.I.P

Just_end_turn
Posts: 71
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by Just_end_turn »

Yoyobuae wrote:
elvish_sovereign wrote:Basically, there is no "water" unit (as in can move though it freely) other than the drakes that can really mess with the undead. For example, Gryphons, Mermen, Naga all have pierce/blade weapons. And drakes have such crappy defenses there that even if you put a skele archer there they most likely won't attack you from fire ranged unless it's day.
Drake Gliders? Impact melee and they get 40% defense in water since 1.8.

Still, it really depends on whether controlling water is worth the trouble. For example, leaving the water unchecked in Weldyn can lead to some rather annoying village steals with bats. It can also serve as a safe area (from adepts) or as a staging point for attacks for flying drakes.

Or all the fighting happens in land and water control is useless.
Well, this is a mirror and mirrors are balanced. To be more constructive, if he steals your vills with bats, you should be able to do the same, unless map is unbalanced or you're losing.

About nagas, they are actually not that bad againt water skeletons, because blades resistence doesn't compensate for the mobility and the defence.

If you're UD and fighting an ennemy that inverss gold in water units, that means you have more units (Maybe not vs orks because they're cheap) in the battlefield.

So basically, you don't really need to fight in the water, you just have to be able to kill any unit that steals those, and for that you have skeletons + ghost block vs mermies and adepts vs nagas.

User avatar
tr0ll
Posts: 528
Joined: June 11th, 2006, 8:13 pm
Location: canada

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by tr0ll »

hhyloc wrote:
tr0ll wrote:in Dead Water there are some zombie or soulless mermen

You can make zombie mermen with walking corpses too, not just in Dead Water. :eng:
im pretty sure the undead mermen were much faster than the usual walking corpses and moved well in water.

User avatar
Maiklas3000
Posts: 532
Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by Maiklas3000 »

If you're facing Mermen, then yeah, create Walking Corpses in hopes of getting a Merman Walking Corpse, and then more Merman Walking Corpses. They can move 4 hexes in water. What about Naga Walking Corpses? What is their water movement?

For a more general strategy, what about a combination of Ghosts and Skeleton Archers, backed up by Skeletons and Vampire Bats? The Skeletons and Skeleton Archers have submerge, which helps make up for a lack of speed. Put a Ghost up for bait and position a submerged Archer to ambush, with a Skeleton nearby. The idea is that your opponent will send some sort of ranged unit after the Ghost, but the ranged unit will wind up with only an Archer to attack. Then you have a (submerged) Skeleton in striking range to attack the now wounded ranged unit. The Ghost can melee-drain attack and maybe get in the killing blow. Bats can help finish off any wounded that persist. One problem is time of day. A lawful or neutral opponent may not fall the trap at night, and your units are too weak by day, so dusk may be the only time to try against such an opponent.

More importantly, I suggest doing everything you can to promote a Ghost to Shadow. In combination with Bats, the Shadow will control a huge area of water at night, even if it has to run away during the day. For second watch, your opponent has to worry about your Shadow possibly having moved its full movement twice in any direction from its last sighted location (due to invisibility/nightstalk.) And your opponent has to worry about the Shadow being able to backstab with the assistance of a mere Vampire Bat. Also, note that keeping Shadows and Ghosts near the shore will allow them to run along the shore with their 7 MP and then back into the water, further extending their area of control.

Note that I'm a campaign player, so I might be way off here. My experience in the Dead Water campaign is that I found myself conceding vast tracts of water real estate at night with my Mermen due to the threat from Shadows, so that's what gave me the idea.

Just_end_turn
Posts: 71
Joined: December 31st, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: How do you controll water with undead?

Post by Just_end_turn »

Maiklas3000 wrote:If you're facing Mermen, then yeah, create Walking Corpses in hopes of getting a Merman Walking Corpse, and then more Merman Walking Corpses. They can move 4 hexes in water. What about Naga Walking Corpses? What is their water movement?

For a more general strategy, what about a combination of Ghosts and Skeleton Archers, backed up by Skeletons and Vampire Bats? The Skeletons and Skeleton Archers have submerge, which helps make up for a lack of speed. Put a Ghost up for bait and position a submerged Archer to ambush, with a Skeleton nearby. The idea is that your opponent will send some sort of ranged unit after the Ghost, but the ranged unit will wind up with only an Archer to attack. Then you have a (submerged) Skeleton in striking range to attack the now wounded ranged unit. The Ghost can melee-drain attack and maybe get in the killing blow. Bats can help finish off any wounded that persist. One problem is time of day. A lawful or neutral opponent may not fall the trap at night, and your units are too weak by day, so dusk may be the only time to try against such an opponent.

More importantly, I suggest doing everything you can to promote a Ghost to Shadow. In combination with Bats, the Shadow will control a huge area of water at night, even if it has to run away during the day. For second watch, your opponent has to worry about your Shadow possibly having moved its full movement twice in any direction from its last sighted location (due to invisibility/nightstalk.) And your opponent has to worry about the Shadow being able to backstab with the assistance of a mere Vampire Bat. Also, note that keeping Shadows and Ghosts near the shore will allow them to run along the shore with their 7 MP and then back into the water, further extending their area of control.

Note that I'm a campaign player, so I might be way off here. My experience in the Dead Water campaign is that I found myself conceding vast tracts of water real estate at night with my Mermen due to the threat from Shadows, so that's what gave me the idea.
In campaigns, losing 1 or 2 merman but killing a shadow is not very good. In multiplayer, it is.

Post Reply