After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Terbin
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by Terbin »

DukeSwampy wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 5:27 am
Terbin wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 4:51 am
Hi! i absolutley love this Campaign as well as its predecessor. How do i get it to work with 1.14.x Wesnoth? (I downloaded it via steam not the wesnoth website.) thanks for any help you could give!~
Ummm... Unfortunately, this campaign hasn't been ported in Wesnoth branch 1.14. So only 1.12.
Spoiler:

is it possible to still install1.12? I would totally install an older version of Wes. to replay this camp.

gnombat
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by gnombat »

Terbin wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 12:40 am
is it possible to still install1.12?
Yes, you can download the last Wesnoth 1.12 release here. If you're running Windows it should be simple to install (just run the installer as usual - it should be possible to install it while at the same time having 1.14 installed). It might be more complicated if you're using some other OS.

BTIsaac
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by BTIsaac »

Iris, I'm not trying to attack you here. There's no point in getting angry with me.
Iris wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 2:21 pm
I guess it's a huge stretch to believe that two random high-ranked sorcerers (one of them fought by Elynia in the Council chamber, you'd be forgiven for missing him entirely) would be appointed to temporarily or permanently fill in for those two in the middle of a war...
Fair enough. Any reason I'm learning this from a discussion thread, years later, instead of the campaign itself? The Iron Council was a defined group of antagonists with three named members. If one of them sees himself out of the story, or a new member is appointed, that should in my opinion be something that's at least acknowldged. If instead of "third member of the Iron Council" the lich wouldve just been a generic sorcerer filling in for Nar Hammoth in his absence, I wouldn't have even brought it up.
...and in order to let you continue playing your fantasy tactical TBS for a couple more scenarios before the tactical strategy aspect disappears almost completely.
Forgive me if i'm mistaken, but this strikes me as a bit antagonistic. it sounds too much like the passive-agressive "I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted" sort of response. I don't get why it's necessary.
And god forbid anything gets left hanging in order to let others fill in the gaps.
"Something left hanging" is a bit of an understatement. The plot threads are so jumbled with new elements introduced every step of the way that don't go anywhere, that it's hard to tell if something was left hanging or simply got forgotten.
Like, seriously. People like that is how AtS got delayed for several years and how IftU got multiple revisions and a major rewrite.
YES! And the result shows in the final product. I don't know what revisions had to be made to the story itself (and you've made it abundantly clear in the past that a lot of them weren't to your liking - I understand how frustrating that can be), but the work put into the writing and the plotting shows. IftU is very streamlined and was enjoyable to play. You've done wonderful work with it and I'm going to maintain that it's the best User Made Campaign in the entire game. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear earlier.
I don't have patience for that kind of thing anymore while getting absolutely nothing in exchange.
I remember you telling me this the last time. It sounds like some kind of burnout. I can understand that. But just because you don't have the patience or motivation to iron out the problems with the story in AtS anymore, it doesn't mean we can't acknowledge that these problems exist. Nobody's forcing you to do something you don't enjoy.
Sigh, i'm sorry. I shouldn't have brought up this old topic again.
It's also funny to see how people have little to no expectations in terms of design quality from mainline but for some reason two glorified fanfics (which are themselves based on another fanfic) must tick all the boxes.
Please don't get me wrong. If it makes you feel any better, I have plenty of problems with the mainline campaigns. Two of them in particular. And when the time comes to discuss them, I will bring them up, rest assured.

BTIsaac
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by BTIsaac »

Konrad2 wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 12:05 pm
Where can I look at this list?
SIgh. I probably should't do this but here it was.
viewtopic.php?p=621699#p621699

And over 2 years ago. Hmm.

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Iris
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by Iris »

BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 11:29 am
Fair enough. Any reason I'm learning this from a discussion thread, years later, instead of the campaign itself? The Iron Council was a defined group of antagonists with three named members.
With an implied precedent of being replaceable — the IftU Iron Council only has one of the original members seen in UtBS.
BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 11:29 am
If one of them sees himself out of the story, or a new member is appointed, that should in my opinion be something that's at least acknowldged. If instead of "third member of the Iron Council" the lich wouldve just been a generic sorcerer filling in for Nar Hammoth in his absence, I wouldn't have even brought it up.
There's enough text walls at this point in the campaign to exacerbate the issue by spelling out every minor detail about the enemy leaders you face, especially when no such thing was ever done before in this or most other campaigns.
BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 11:29 am
...and in order to let you continue playing your fantasy tactical TBS for a couple more scenarios before the tactical strategy aspect disappears almost completely.
Forgive me if i'm mistaken, but this strikes me as a bit antagonistic. it sounds too much like the passive-agressive "I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted" sort of response. I don't get why it's necessary.
Exaggerating some aspects (especially those that were criticized the most in IftU and AtS E1 and E2) while phasing others away was actually part of the mission statement for episode 3's design from scenario 1 onward.
Spoiler:
You can call it passive-aggressive campaign design, but it's what it is, even though most of the context for it is lost to history.
BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 11:29 am
"Something left hanging" is a bit of an understatement. The plot threads are so jumbled with new elements introduced every step of the way that don't go anywhere, that it's hard to tell if something was left hanging or simply got forgotten.
Most of the things left hanging were either left there deliberately for other people to fill the gaps (Nar-Hamoth) or are meant to be resolved in EOL. We're going in circles here. Again, I don't see why every single thing needs to be wrapped up neatly and immediately when even the original IftU (and before that, UtBS) left a crap ton of things hanging.
BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 12:49 pm
Konrad2 wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 12:05 pm
Where can I look at this list?
SIgh. I probably should't do this but here it was.
viewtopic.php?p=621699#p621699

And over 2 years ago. Hmm.
And everything I said in my follow-up to that continues to be true to this day.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

BTIsaac
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by BTIsaac »

Iris wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 1:27 pm
There's enough text walls at this point in the campaign to exacerbate the issue by spelling out every minor detail about the enemy leaders you face, especially when no such thing was ever done before in this or most other campaigns.
Uhm, yes. That's kind of a problem. Most of those walls of text are lore exposition, and throw-away subplots that don'tseem to go anywhere. Relatively little is dedicated to explaining what's actually going on.
You can call it passive-aggressive campaign design, but it's what it is, even though most of the context for it is lost to history.
It's not the campaign I'm calling passive agressive. But if you're trying to imply that you deliberately made the thing tedious and frustrating to play, you're kinda proving my point. (Please correct me if i misunderstood).
Most of the things left hanging were either left there deliberately for other people to fill the gaps (Nar-Hamoth) or are meant to be resolved in EOL. We're going in circles here. Again, I don't see why every single thing needs to be wrapped up neatly and immediately when even the original IftU (and before that, UtBS) left a crap ton of things hanging.
There's a difference here though. IftU left a hook for a sequel though, after it's main plot thread was satifsyingly resolved. It had a beginning, middle and an end, as well as a hook for a sequel. It works even as a self contained work. ATS on the other hand is three separate campaigns that are mostly just buildup after buildup that manages to both end abruptly with no resolution, yet still drags out far longer than necessary. Iftu had a plot that can be summarized in one sentence. This can hardly be said about AtS.

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Iris
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by Iris »

BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:22 pm
It's not the campaign I'm calling passive agressive. But if you're trying to imply that you deliberately made the thing tedious and frustrating to play, you're kinda proving my point. (Please correct me if i misunderstood).
Not every campaign is everyone's cup of tea. Using mainline as an example to avoid triggering people, both HttT and NR are intentionally frustrating in their own ways and have their own fans and detractors. This kind of thing is bound to happen when the author can read their audience's loudest voices before the work is even complete. If you feel attacked even though you weren't even there during the development process, then I don't know what to say?
BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:22 pm
There's a difference here though. IftU left a hook for a sequel though, after it's main plot thread was satifsyingly resolved.
So satisfyingly resolved that the woman behind the man isn't ever seen and her campaign of conquest (no pun intended) barely thwarted, while the biggest cosmic power which was the driving force behind Galas' quest is left undone and completely out of the heroes' reach in a separate dimension. Yeah.
BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:22 pm
It had a beginning, middle and an end, as well as a hook for a sequel. It works even as a self contained work. ATS on the other hand is three separate campaigns that are mostly just buildup after buildup that manages to both end abruptly with no resolution, yet still drags out far longer than necessary. Iftu had a plot that can be summarized in one sentence. This can hardly be said about AtS.
Spoiler:
BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:22 pm
Uhm, yes. That's kind of a problem. Most of those walls of text are lore exposition, and throw-away subplots that don'tseem to go anywhere. Relatively little is dedicated to explaining what's actually going on.
At this point I really don't know what to say. You do you I guess. But maybe don't come back to this thread if you're just going to constantly prattle about how the campaign is not to your liking. There's other things we both could be doing with our time. For example, I could be finishing up the one thing that's blocking AtS 0.10.0 from release instead of having people make me feel like it's not worth the effort of fighting Wesnoth's byzantine game engine. On top of everything else going on that you don't get to hear about. And you can call me however you want for this statement but I'm just trying to draw a line between valid criticism and pointless expenditure of time.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

BTIsaac
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by BTIsaac »

Iris wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 3:45 pm
BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:22 pm
There's a difference here though. IftU left a hook for a sequel though, after it's main plot thread was satifsyingly resolved.
So satisfyingly resolved that the woman behind the man isn't ever seen and her campaign of conquest (no pun intended) barely thwarted, while the biggest cosmic power which was the driving force behind Galas' quest is left undone and completely out of the heroes' reach in a separate dimension. Yeah.
Spoiler:
Thank you for this post. I think i can see the problem here. You're too fixated on the overarching storyline and lose track of the actual story that's going on. This explains a lot of the issues I had with AtS. This is how the story of IftU goes: A hero and his people embark on a quest to stop an enemy threatening their home, they find allies along the way, reach their destination and defeat said enemy. That's the basic premise around which the entire story is built. The details and specifics are unimportant right now. As is the backstory and whether or not there's a much bigger scheme going on in the background.
And this is the problem with AtS. There is a very detailed and complex backstory, a whole plethora of characters and a series of events, but no actual plot that ties them all together in an organic fashion. Your one sentence summaries aren't actually plot summaries, they're character arcs. In IftU, Galas' character arc unfolds as part of the actual plot. In AtS, Elynia's character arc is pretty much just thrown in there with a whole bunch of other things that are happening and while some plot cohesion is maintained through chapter 1 and chapter 2, which one could argue have some semblance of a plot, all focus is lost by the time of chapter 3.
I can kind of see where you're coming from but ultimately there's no need for me to cater to that mindset.
I'm not talking about mindsets here. I'm talking about the basics of storytelling
There's other things we both could be doing with our time. For example, I could be finishing up the one thing that's blocking AtS 0.10.0 from release instead of having people make me feel like it's not worth the effort of fighting Wesnoth's byzantine game engine. On top of everything else going on that you don't get to hear about. And you can call me however you want for this statement but I'm just trying to draw a line between valid criticism and pointless expenditure of time.
That is an excellent point, although i don't necessarily consider discussions about writing a waste of time.
But far be it from me to distract you further from important matters. I can only wish you good luck. And try not to stress yourself.

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Iris
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by Iris »

BTIsaac wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 5:46 pm
This is how the story of IftU goes: A hero and his people embark on a quest to stop an enemy threatening their home, they find allies along the way, reach their destination and defeat said enemy. That's the basic premise around which the entire story is built.
I can 100% guarantee to you that this was absolutely not my thought process when I set out to outline IftU's storyline, and if the end result happens to match your premise it's a complete coincidence. Furthermore AtS as a whole can wrapped around the same formula if you think about it.
Spoiler:
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

BTIsaac
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by BTIsaac »

Iris wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 6:04 pm
I can 100% guarantee to you that this was absolutely not my thought process when I set out to outline IftU's storyline, and if the end result happens to match your premise it's a complete coincidence.
I can see that. That's precisely my point.
Furthermore AtS as a whole can wrapped around the same formula if you think about it.
You could argue that with chapter 2, and to a lesser extent chapter 1, but by chapter 3, it really starts coming apart. In fact, if I'm going to be a bit more generous, I could say that a lot of the issues I have with ATS are almost entirely due to chapter 3.

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Iris
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by Iris »

Well, I'm sorry I didn't follow a cookbook for all of this I guess. There's no point in continuing to discuss it any further because I'm not going to redo the whole thing and force it into a particular structure to please a few people, especially when I already fulfilled my original goals and neither campaign is going to go into mainline within my lifetime.

Again, it can't be everyone's cup of tea. And this time around it was a pretty deliberate choice.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

BTIsaac
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by BTIsaac »

I don't understand why having a coherent and organized story would be a matter of personal taste. It's not about pleasing a few people. I understand if you don't want to go back and redo AtS, I can imagine what a painstaking task that would end up to be, but it is something you might want to keep in mind going forward, when building a new story from the ground up.

Anyway, that's my last comment on this matter.

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Iris
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by Iris »

The constant insinuation of there not being a structure because it's not the structure you expected is what really bothers me. So yeah, enough with the backseat writing. Hopefully you'll be able to produce good content with the lessons you keep trying to teach to the wrong person.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

BTIsaac
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Re: After the Storm 0.9.17 [Wesnoth 1.12]

Post by BTIsaac »

Iris wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 12:44 pm
Hopefully you'll be able to produce good content with the lessons you keep trying to teach to the wrong person.
Believe me, i hope so too.

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