1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

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white_haired_uncle
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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by white_haired_uncle » April 17th, 2019, 9:33 pm

The unit at 21.25 keeps losing HP. I don't know why, but by turn 23 he's pretty darn low.

Also, in this scenario there's a point where it says the Khython won't attack side 1 unless they are attacked. That's mostly true, except on that very turn I moved Kerryn onto the castle tile just north of Echnida and she starts attacking him at her first opportunity.

I found the final objectives for this scenario unclear and had to look at the code to figure out what to do.
Spoiler:
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WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by white_haired_uncle » April 18th, 2019, 12:12 am

On turn 51, move Bresda to the teleport, then to 21.53.

The save labelled turn 74 is actually turn 94. I'm finding the first two Dark Planet scenarios take way too many turns to finish.
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WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » April 18th, 2019, 2:56 am

Thanks for the feedback, white_haired_uncle. I will take a look at this on the weekend.
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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by white_haired_uncle » April 18th, 2019, 10:00 pm

Lua error can be seen at end of log. I found out much later that this breaks the scenario to the point of not being possible to complete. I believe that the cause is that Lyron died. Then, when you kill Tristien it creates an event which blows up on side 2's next turn, so Keldan never becomes able to make a forest, etc.

Something that came out of this which might be worth looking at -- what happens if Keldan doesn't make a forest?
Spoiler:
Also, inferrnal > infernal, and truely > truly (in modern times).

I'm hoping this is about the last battle. It feels like it. Almost all of Bresda's veterans were wiped out early trying to get down to assist Nemesis. If I had one more turn head start I think things would have been different, but they got swarmed in open ground by drones.

Unrelated: In a couple of earlier scenarios you have to find something, such as a key, and then have the unit that picks it up be the one to use it. It would help a lot of you could add a visual symbol to the character so we can remember which one has the "key".
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WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » April 20th, 2019, 2:53 am

I got to test some of these.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 18th, 2019, 12:12 am
On turn 51, move Bresda to the teleport, then to 21.53.
First, I have to say that everything after this is broken. Lua errors are really unfortunate in that they make you think you can soldier on, but it's usually a waste of time. It would be better if Wesnoth crashed or went back to the main menu.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 15th, 2019, 8:09 pm
Archaic Sounds is a dependency, but is not listed in description (I use web server to download add-ons, FWIW)
I wasn't sure anyone paid attention to that anymore, with the built-in add-on manager handling dependencies.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 15th, 2019, 8:09 pm
In the attached, attack the peasant in the river with the beggar. In the attack dialog, note that the beggar is really fearless. When he levels up, look at each possibility and note that the HP listed in the level up choice does not match the HP in the unit info.
He has the resilient trait. I didn't bother with the arithmetic, but I'd guess that explains it.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 15th, 2019, 8:09 pm
Also, view the status table. Teams 1 and 2 claim to be on the same team but are fighting.
The dialogues should make it clear what is going on, but I guess I can change it.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 15th, 2019, 8:50 pm
In the attached, two units have both self-heal and regenerate?
Yeah, it didn't use to be that way, but now it is... I'll need to look into this, but I don't think it breaks anything.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 15th, 2019, 8:50 pm
Also, the objectives defeat conditions do not make sense.
I'm not sure what you mean.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 12:07 am
In the attached turn 7, as soon as you move Dardrus inside the option to switch to the outside map disappears. So I made sure he was the last one to go in on turn 10, and on turn 11 he is stuck. EDIT: Okay, it looks like once I move units out the other exit, or to the next level he gets unstuck, but it's kind of confusing.
The auto-placement of units when the target hex is occupied needs some work (which I'm guessing is what happened there). Dardrus shouldn't be where he is, things are screwed up after that, unfortunately.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 12:07 am
In "High Lord" - I couldn't find a way to win honestly. As soon as one opposing unit gets in the way of my hero the enemy is bound to escape.
It is definitely possible. I found I had this replay, which is attached.
Tri1-High Lord replay.gz
With a low unit count, the RNG can screw you, but at least turns don't take that long if you have to start over.
(56.25 KiB) Downloaded 83 times
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 12:07 am
In Bitter Truth, there are a couple of dialogs that say things like "felt a comforting warmth...". I suspect there's supposed to be a character's name in front of that, but most of my units in that scenario have no names.
I see what you mean, that will be fixed. Thanks.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 9:33 pm
The unit at 21.25 keeps losing HP. I don't know why, but by turn 23 he's pretty darn low.
It seems pretty clear what is going on, maybe you have animations disabled?
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 9:33 pm
Also, in this scenario there's a point where it says the Khython won't attack side 1 unless they are attacked. That's mostly true, except on that very turn I moved Kerryn onto the castle tile just north of Echnida and she starts attacking him at her first opportunity.
I'll look into this, I suspect it's because the AI treats leaders different from regular units. It would make sense for Echidna to attack Kerrnyn, but I doubt the AI is really following the story that closely. Maybe in a couple years, but not now.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 18th, 2019, 10:00 pm
Unrelated: In a couple of earlier scenarios you have to find something, such as a key, and then have the unit that picks it up be the one to use it. It would help a lot of you could add a visual symbol to the character so we can remember which one has the "key".
That's usually the plan. If it's not working, something is broken. Or I've just forgotten something. In your save, one of the sky-callers is replaced by a white square, so something screwy is going on with unit graphics. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'll keep an eye out.

I'll look at the rest later, but I can say that I'm not thrilled with the final scenarios either. They are too long and difficult to test & debug, and are fragile as a result. I can say that it was possible to win this campaign without save-scumming in some late BfW 1.13 (pre-1.14 development) version, but it's probably easy to get stuck in a dead-end I didn't anticipate.
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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by white_haired_uncle » April 20th, 2019, 7:15 pm

doofus-01 wrote:
April 20th, 2019, 2:53 am
I got to test some of these.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 15th, 2019, 8:09 pm
Archaic Sounds is a dependency, but is not listed in description (I use web server to download add-ons, FWIW)
I wasn't sure anyone paid attention to that anymore, with the built-in add-on manager handling dependencies.


The web server doesn't enforce dependencies. My new laptop (still) has windows 10 on it, and I got tired of it crying to be rebooted, enabling new "features", etc, every six minutes, so it's blocked from the internet at the router.
doofus-01 wrote:
April 20th, 2019, 2:53 am
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 15th, 2019, 8:50 pm
Also, the objectives defeat conditions do not make sense.
I'm not sure what you mean.


IIRC, it's something like defeat of unit1/unit2 when you only have unit2. It may be explained in the dialog, but I get bored of dialog very quickly.
doofus-01 wrote:
April 20th, 2019, 2:53 am
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 9:33 pm
The unit at 21.25 keeps losing HP. I don't know why, but by turn 23 he's pretty darn low.
It seems pretty clear what is going on, maybe you have animations disabled?
I do. I was guessing it was because he was near a cannon looking thing. The really curious part is on turn 23 he's got like -15 HP.
doofus-01 wrote:
April 20th, 2019, 2:53 am
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 18th, 2019, 10:00 pm
Unrelated: In a couple of earlier scenarios you have to find something, such as a key, and then have the unit that picks it up be the one to use it. It would help a lot of you could add a visual symbol to the character so we can remember which one has the "key".
That's usually the plan. If it's not working, something is broken. Or I've just forgotten something. In your save, one of the sky-callers is replaced by a white square, so something screwy is going on with unit graphics. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'll keep an eye out.
Spoiler:
WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » April 22nd, 2019, 12:51 am

white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 20th, 2019, 7:15 pm
My new laptop (still) has windows 10 on it,
Yes, that is a problem, you need to get that fixed.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 20th, 2019, 7:15 pm
It may be explained in the dialog, but I get bored of dialog very quickly.
Well, I can somewhat sympathize in some instances, but ignoring the text will be a problem. A lot of SP campaigns won't make any sense.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 20th, 2019, 7:15 pm
I can remember one specifically.
Thanks, I'll look for that.
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Sadaharu
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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by Sadaharu » April 23rd, 2019, 10:04 pm

I haven't gotten round to powering through BMR 1-2-3 and then Trinity yet (these job things get in the way), but when I did in BfW 1.12 late last year there was the bug that
Spoiler:
So, well, since I haven't played Trinity on BfW 1.14 yet I don't know whether it's been carried over, but it might be worth looking at. If you need to take a look at my replays and/or start-of-scenario saves from 1.12 I still have them.
doofus-01 wrote:
April 22nd, 2019, 12:51 am
white_haired_uncle wrote:
April 20th, 2019, 7:15 pm
My new laptop (still) has windows 10 on it,
Yes, that is a problem, you need to get that fixed.
'Tis a surprisingly prevalent piece of malware.
Last edited by Sadaharu on May 18th, 2019, 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » April 29th, 2019, 1:30 am

Hah, that stuff in the spoiler is funny. I don't remember if it's fixed by now, but I know what to look out for.
Sadaharu wrote:
April 23rd, 2019, 10:04 pm
I haven't gotten round to powering through BMR 1-2-3 and then Trinity yet (these job things get in the way),
When I was a BfW player, rather than a UMC author, I really liked long campaigns. They were like long novels, I was happy if it took me several months to get through. But it really takes a lot of time to write, test, fix, test, etc... It's good that the BfW development cycle has slowed, there's a chance I'll get this beaten back into shape before the next version. Feedback from other people, like yourself, helps. Thanks.
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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by Sadaharu » May 18th, 2019, 2:19 am

Yes, that's the draw for me. Good stories. I don't mind a mindless romp such as playing DotA, but if I'm going to play a series it's far better when the scenari are linked.
It's also something that takes replay value, I need a few months, maybe even a year of cooldown before revisiting (reliving) a storyline.

In terms of storyline BMR is better than Trinity because it's a climax, a near-villain triumph, several of our heroes have died (certainly the more heroic ones, especially compared to Nemesis), and who knows how it will all end. Trinity shows the final destruction of the world-conquering enemy and after that there's peace.

It's a bit like Ep. V and VI of Star Wars in that respect. There's more dramatic tension when the villains are closer to a victory, or when we lose some of the heroes along the way, than simply happing a happy peppy ending more fit for Barney and Friends.
Also, I don't terribly mind playing a villain, but Echidna's not the best of characters. Her motivation is to conquer the world because she has to and all her Khthon units are not the desperate fugitives of BMR, the revenge-seeking Scarrion, or Bresda's religious fanatics; instead they are just mindless rampaging animals. And she doesn't have great lines or anything. Which is good because it keeps her in character as a primal evil (as opposed to ‘civilised’ ones such as Scarrion or Huric), but if it weren't for Keldan's new storyline the Khthon scenari in the campaign would be a serious drag so I think that part of the rewrite is great.

On the other hand, playing a campaign with so much extra stuff (BMR) can become a hassle and Trinity is ‘easier’ in that respect. All one has to do is keep track of the units and, in stages when one has to select a team (e.g. entering the tower) make sure the right/best ones are in, while in BMR there's the items and so on which, when I played it on BfW 1.10, were far fewer so they didn't interfere that much but now in BfW 1.14 they take more time. I like that kind of game, too, but it takes more time and effort which is not everyone's cup of tea. I stopped playing Tales of the Setting Sun when selecting weapons and so on meant too much trial and error and finding out how it worked (yes, I know it's unfinished and will remain so); perhaps I'll finally play it later.

I don't know whether it was intentional or not, but the scenari where Nemesis appeared were my favourite, whether in BMR when she was chasing me (the second visit to The Pit, also that one where she kept hovering overhead and snatching my troops if they weren't inside caves or forest) or when she led my troops in Trinity.

So, Trinity: a good finish. Both it and BMR have artifact titles, but those are their proper names for me at least. The ambiguous ending almost makes me want a sequel, but I know you're limited to maintenance and there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

So that's all until I've finally cooled down enough to replay it on BfW 1.14.

Thanks for the campaign!

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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » May 19th, 2019, 4:09 am

Sadaharu wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:19 am
Also, I don't terribly mind playing a villain, but Echidna's not the best of characters. Her motivation is to conquer the world because she has to and all her Khthon units are not the desperate fugitives of BMR, the revenge-seeking Scarrion, or Bresda's religious fanatics; instead they are just mindless rampaging animals.
Around the time I was writing Trinity and still working on BMR, I had recently read Blindsight by Peter Watts, which apparently warrants a wikipedia page. (I don't agree with the rather optimistic wikipedia assessment that vampires killed off humanity, for what it's worth - from what I recall, it was humanity abdicating to AI, furthering the idea that consciousness is just something we have, it's not a requirement for intelligence or dominance.)

Playing as an unthinking force of alien nature would be pretty unsatisfying overall, but I thought the chance to raze Weldyn as the invading monsters could satisfy a dark itch.

On a somewhat related note, I think I made Seth too much of a standard Lich, but things are less confusing that way. Trinity can still be pretty confusing.
Sadaharu wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:19 am
I stopped playing Tales of the Setting Sun when selecting weapons and so on meant too much trial and error and finding out how it worked (yes, I know it's unfinished and will remain so); perhaps I'll finally play it later.
Don't waste your time, I'd abandoned it years ago. Some of the features made it into the BMR, some of the assets were useful to others, but the overall story I gave up on. I tried to resolve things in Trinity (mostly).
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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » May 26th, 2019, 3:18 am

1.5.2 has been published on the 1.14 server.

I've tested it through Part 1 now. These commit titles are roughly the change-log, some are not that exciting, but some are noticeable.
commits
fixing some text strings at end of Part 1

some revisions to cannons in last Part 1 scenario

improvements to last scenario of Part1

some fixes/revisions to Engine Room scenario

fixing an indexed color image

prevent weasadillo from getting quick trait, which makes scenario unb…

optipng run on PNG images

P1 The Cave - map update

P1 Choice - rename scenario to Subsumption

P1 Rebirth - map revision

P1 Storming Weldyn updates, both visual and balance
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Sadaharu
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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by Sadaharu » July 16th, 2019, 10:43 pm

doofus-01 wrote:
May 19th, 2019, 4:09 am
Sadaharu wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:19 am
Also, I don't terribly mind playing a villain, but Echidna's not the best of characters. Her motivation is to conquer the world because she has to and all her Khthon units are not the desperate fugitives of BMR, the revenge-seeking Scarrion, or Bresda's religious fanatics; instead they are just mindless rampaging animals.
Around the time I was writing Trinity and still working on BMR, I had recently read Blindsight by Peter Watts, which apparently warrants a wikipedia page. (I don't agree with the rather optimistic wikipedia assessment that vampires killed off humanity, for what it's worth - from what I recall, it was humanity abdicating to AI, furthering the idea that consciousness is just something we have, it's not a requirement for intelligence or dominance.)

Playing as an unthinking force of alien nature would be pretty unsatisfying overall, but I thought the chance to raze Weldyn as the invading monsters could satisfy a dark itch.

On a somewhat related note, I think I made Seth too much of a standard Lich, but things are less confusing that way. Trinity can still be pretty confusing.
I'll grant you that the complexity of the battle at Weldyn definitely does help. Especially with Keldan.

I don't know about Peter Watts' book, I'd never heard of it before now, but I'll try to read it.

On Seth… Seth works as things are. If you want to make him more complicated you'd need a lot more backstory which is a lot of work and then adds to the workload of maintenance so I would recommend against it, and also, Echidna being part of him suddenly does give him more backstory.
And also I think that sometimes a mysterious background is better.
doofus-01 wrote:
Sadaharu wrote:
May 18th, 2019, 2:19 am
I stopped playing Tales of the Setting Sun when selecting weapons and so on meant too much trial and error and finding out how it worked (yes, I know it's unfinished and will remain so); perhaps I'll finally play it later.
Don't waste your time, I'd abandoned it years ago. Some of the features made it into the BMR, some of the assets were useful to others, but the overall story I gave up on. I tried to resolve things in Trinity (mostly).
Oh don't worry, I haven't played it any further.

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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by Konrad2 » September 9th, 2019, 8:19 am

A New Vessal
For some reason the horses I can recruit don't have an advancement, lack an image, and are human.

(Also, shouldn't it be 'Vessel'?)

EDIT:
Okay, it's apparently a conflict with some other add-on. But it will be some time until I figure out which add-on it is.

EDIT 2:
You might want to disable the vector attack for Echidna or put a note somewhere that successfully using this attack leads to losing.

It would also be nice to know that the glare from the wounded Nemesis is an 'defense only' attack.

EDIT 3:
Rebirth
Attacking a Shaman with Echidna results in a Khton that looks like a Thrall, is able to advance (just needs a 1000xp), which has 0hp, and said Khton retains the status he had before being converted, e.g. being poisoned.
Tri1-Rebirth-Auto-Save28.gz
(97.13 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
PS: I really like the new map.

EDIT 4:
Rebirth
Echidna is required to hit the Shyde Leader, attacking is not enough.

EDIT 5:
High Lord
Death of the High Lord is not part of the defeat conditions and killing him does not trigger losing, even though it really should.

And nothing changes if I kill the Lieutnant, so the High Lord will talk to himself once he arrives at Weldyns door.
Tri1-High Lord Turn 13.gz
(114.81 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
It would be nice if there was a reason for me to catch the High Lord fast instead of farming gold and xp. Maybe a time limit or reinforcements?

Storming Weldyn
Purple is extremely passive. Do they even want to defeat me?
Actually, green seems to be the only one even trying.

Could you make the units affected by miasma accept that they can't be healed? They are blocking villages from their allies and they stay there forever...

EDIT 6:
The Cave
The dialog upon discovering the dead Primeval is crippled if you defeat the enemy Runemaster before the discovery.
Tri1-The Cave Turn 38.gz
Enjoy Nemesis talking to herself
(120.4 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

EDIT 7:
Storming Weldyn
Why do you scroll to 16,33 when the High Lord kills the southern leader?

EDIT 8:
Engine Room
You end that scenario early by defeating the three nagas before moving Nemesis to the Engine Room.
Tri1-Engine Room-Auto-Save17.gz
Kill that naga, end the scenario
(131.64 KiB) Downloaded 14 times
EDIT 9:
Seance
I think making 'Dolevan kills the enemy leader' would be clearer, additionally with a lose condition 'One of your minions kills the enemy leader'.

The AMLA 'Missle Attack +1' for Dardrus (Observer) reads misleading. 'Missle Damage +1' would be clearer.

An Encounter
Aramemnon has the trait 'netherworld spirit' twice and his green-fire strike has the 'enthrallment' weapon special twice. And the tool tip of his unit typ says that he is a Thrall. (For a full Khthon it would display the normal unit description.) And for some reason he can't earn xp. Probably something about him being Thrall like.
Tri1-An Encounter-Auto-Save18.gz
(185.92 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
If you defeat side 3 before you defeat the Khthon Elvish Avenger, the scenario won't end. There are no units from side 3 that can die and trigger the event that checks how many units are left on side 3.

EDIT 10:
Part II description
but it the story -> but the story

Dark Heart
Reach southern edge -> Reach the southern edge

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Re: 1.14 SP Campaign: Trinity

Post by doofus-01 » September 16th, 2019, 2:42 am

Konrad2 wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 8:19 am
EDIT 2:
You might want to disable the vector attack for Echidna or put a note somewhere that successfully using this attack leads to losing.
I've disabled that attack, and given Leggon a Khthon glow, for next update.
Konrad2 wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 8:19 am
Rebirth
Attacking a Shaman with Echidna results in a Khton that looks like a Thrall, is able to advance (just needs a 1000xp), which has 0hp, and said Khton retains the status he had before being converted, e.g. being poisoned.
I've now replaced it with something more standard, the old code must have been written while I was still working enthrallment out.
Konrad2 wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 8:19 am
EDIT 5:
High Lord
Death of the High Lord is not part of the defeat conditions and killing him does not trigger losing, even though it really should.

And nothing changes if I kill the Lieutnant, so the High Lord will talk to himself once he arrives at Weldyns door.
Oversight, thanks for reporting.
Konrad2 wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 8:19 am
Storming Weldyn
Purple is extremely passive. Do they even want to defeat me?
Actually, green seems to be the only one even trying.

Could you make the units affected by miasma accept that they can't be healed? They are blocking villages from their allies and they stay there forever...
Some of the sides are defensive, I don't remember any of them being passive, but maybe something has changed with core AIs. It might be possible to get miasma units to avoid the villages, but I'll have to test it a bit, so it won't be in the next update.
The other stuff will also be saved for update after next. Thanks for the reports.
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