Gladiators

[Mabuse]

hehe, im necromanting this thread too

btw, i like the general idea A LOT
however the map lacks some dynamics.

the map itself is perfectly playable (or not), but only if you absolutely know where the dungeon keeper starts (since he always starts at the same place, this is valid.)

the only valid strategy for the players is kinda to make a 7 movement hero (since heroes can have up to 6 by default, so the dungeon keeper can also have move 6 and since that you would need 7 moves), save at least 8 points to get through the 4 gates needed to reach him. spend the remaining points in strikes or HP (you may buy more if you get a guaranteed kill, so you get the points back)

so one player would go directly (takeing the left route through corridor) after him, another player (player 2) would try to go around and cut off his way.
thr third on can take villages, or simpy support player 2.

ideally p1 has a 6 movement hero (+1 movement upgrade then to make it 7), and p2 and p3 can have move 5 heroes (also with a movement upgrade to get 6)

THIS IS ALSO THE BIG DOWNFALL:
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this is the only way the players can be successful, else, the keeper simply waits unitl he gets some really nasty monsters or get the players in the wrong postions.

if the players are not aware of that they will run mindlessly around though, perhaps even get trapped after spending all their points, then exspecting from the dungeon keeper to send monsters at them "so somethign will happen" (in fact the gameplay shoudl FORCE the keeper to act (else he will lose), not the bored players)

or players simply spend everything they have, and entrech themsleves somewhere, then the keeper also "just" needs to wait until he get the biggies and try to tear them apart

in any case, since there are extremely LITTLE choices how to setup an intelligent gameplay, most games with an expierienced keeper and unexpierienced players wil end up like not much happens in the first rounds, then players get picked off one after another.

especially bad it is if players get trapped somewhere and they cannot go out again.
also the shop is full of nonsense that is just a waste of money.




i would seriously overhaul the shop: you could offer wepons that are on lvl2 level (so around 8-4 damage), weapons with specials

traps are mostly nonsense

also as another improvement, you could place a chest containing 2 (or more) additional points (for being able to get out of the room again) in some strategicalrooms. i woudl vote for more then just two points to allow players to progress deeper (open more gates), or simply as a reward for getting them.

the dynamic of the game mould drastically improve, since players could move around, make progress. then its up t the keeper to prevent that (or deal with it)

also more or other monsters woud be welcomed too of course

new or improved maps could be added.

also the point system coudl be also overworked.
getting points for kills ok (could be also gold based, btw - then villages woud also have a strategical use for players)

but i think the keeper may be ok, with a fixed income per round (maybe due to holding ceratin sites in the dungeon, so players can weaken him while progressing).

but for now, it would be great if there woudl be chests placed in some rooms to ensure players can continue and not get a default lose and to improve the game dynamics.


in any case the general idea is nice.
i can really think about something like an "DUNGEON KEEPER" thingy

[Mabuse]

btw, i prepared a "Gladiators advanced" add on.

it features an expanded critter list, also lvl4's are only availabe at turn 15, lvl5's at turn 20
this is to make lvl3 fighting more interesting.

i got rid of he throwing knives and shield and added arcane ranged and melee weapons instead.
(for the case the players are going to face lichs ...), sicne they are kinda rare, and i dont want to reduce the game for a few chars only

also there are now chests placed throughout the map containing 4 or 6 points. for upgrades but mainly to open more gates (to get more chests) to track down player 1.

also "improved" the map a bit, but only very sligtly.
of course with more work you can make much better maps

[Mabuse]

btw, i made a quick update.

i found out that you can easily grab all chests by placing fog-clearers. lol
by now these little thingies are simply deleted.



EDIT:
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after some serious testing i think i have now found a good level of balance.

killing lvl0 gives 1 point
killing lvl1 gives 3 point
killing lvl2 gives 5 point
killing lvl3 gives 7 point
killing lvl4 gives 9 point
killing lvl5 gives 10 point

added a healer (saurian soothsayer) to the keeper arsenal
version 2.3

[Mabuse]

next thing i have recognized that you can also buy things for other players.

while this is great for teamplay and to help others in need.
it can outbalance the game, if you for example spend ALL starting points on just one megahero then.

due to this you cannot buy other players damage or strikes.
onyl HP, FULL HEAL or ambush/nightstalk/conceal is allowed to share

version 2.4 wil fix this issue

[Mabuse]

version 2.5 offers a slight but needed balance improvement.

most important:
--------------
damage (melee or ranged) cost now 2 instead of 4.
interesting is that this absolutely wont have any effect on the balance, since players jus always bought strikes so far. strikes cost 6, btw.

if strikes cost 6 and damage cost 4 you want almost always (exception is if you have less or equal damage than strikes) to buy another strike.

the big loser in this thing are units with a more balance strike/damage relation.
a unit with 8-4 will only make 8 more damage per new strike. a 16-2 unit makes 16 new damage.
therefore units with high dmaage cunts were definately preferred.

other units are almost useless.

by cutting damagee price by 50% and making a 3:1 relation the more balanced heroes can now gain quicker more total damage by byuing damage.

so now you may want to try out other heroes than thunderer, dwarf, troll or hvy inf and the like




also ghoul cost was a bit increased (no biggie), since its a great level 1 unit. if the keeper manages it to posion a hero and forces him to use a full heal, his own points (the player ets 3 points per level 1 unit) are more then worth that. lonely ghould are a great lvl1 unit to harrass players.


all chests hold now 6 points valaue. i think you shoud at least be able to make a full heal when you reached a chest. also it doesn hurt since point distribution among players is limited (to full heal and HP add)

0.2.5 version it is for now.

future versions:
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future versions may use a bit more pimped up menues with graphics and stuff

also i pan to make the keeper recruitment a bit easier: you may also be able to recruit by clicking on an adjacent hex next to the spawning point. then you dont need to set locations and stuff, which may guarantee a more easier gameplay.

[Mabuse]

after sleeping a night over it i think the game still need some improvements -

Problem:
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for example i dont like it that a KEEPER can summon monsters and walk with them the full distance AND attack the same turn.

sure, ONCE you know it you can prepare and adapt your style of play for it.
but in most cases its simply not intuitive enough, if you step into an empty room and get instantly slain because the keeper summons a bunch of mosters can all attack you immediatly.
that will frustate new players a lot and scare them off. also expierienced players will find that unfair.

i will make it so that summoned creeps have 1 mp (can attack though) in the turn they get summoned.
sure, that requires a lot more foresight than actual, but in the end the gameplay will benefit form it.


Blocking:
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also the players should be able to "block" a summoning point.


Creeps:
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then the keeper needs a few more lvl1 creeps, with high HP and no exploitable weakness.
i think i add grunts and even orcish leaders to the recruit list. goblin rouser gets deleted its too weak and of no benefit. i may delete and add creeps as it seems fit for me.


easier/faster recruiting:
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i will make it so that the keeper is able to summon monster by right-clicking on the recruit point. also recruit points will be better marked, with an altar or something.


more appealing interface:
--------------------------
the interfaces need to be designed more appealing


chest placement:
-----------------
for some chests i may change positions a bit

map:
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slight desing chances for the current map

[Mabuse]

upgrade 0.2.6 is out


- slightly altered map
- spawns points can now be blocked while standing on it
- spawns have now only 1 mp when spawned (but can still attack)
- new critters (orcisch leader-line (so keeper can power up its weaker ctritters, orcish grunt-line)
- upgrade menu now loops until finished for more convenience
- set location menu and set critter menu now in one access (after setting location you can set critter)

this should make gameplay more fair, faster and more convenient
(but also more challenging for the keeper, as he really needs to buy creeps just one turn before he actually "need" them, so he must plan well)

[Mabuse]

ah, btw, of course there may be the one or other balance issues.

i will change the balance a bit, im not sure if it is needed to chnage the point-ysytem a bit for that.

at start every player gets 20 points. so the smallest "reward"-unit is 1 point.
since lvl0 units die extremely easily (lvl0 units give 1 point if killed), you probaly want someting smaller than 1 point.
now gingin away 0.5 points is kinda lame. so the only way is the extend the "scale".

now players may get 50 points at start and all prices are adjusted. this allows more finetuning.

extra weapons will get a bit more expensive (and perhaps even weakened a bit), killing creeps may become a bit less rewarding.

withthe previos change that keeper cant summon and move same turn and as well that summon spots can beblocked he si weakened enough already.

also critter list may be expanded a bit more, and need also a bit better overview due to this.

in any case balance will be a bit adjusted, in order to make the game more fun and more challenge for everyone, but also to allow more maps in the long run.

[Gambit]

Holy crap... lololol
I completely stopped checking multiplayer development so I just read all your posts back to back. Ummmm.

I'll go take my addon down I guess. Yours actually sounds much more fun. -is confused-


Though I am sad you disliked the traps. Most of my work went into figuring out how to allow the player to place multiple traps. They kept all triggering at once. And then there was the earthquake trap. <3

Can you think of any way I could make them more useful?


edit: Actually I just won't upgrade this for 1.8 and if you want it you can have the name.

[Mabuse]

umm, there are two traps that are very useful.
so at least 2 traps are still in there -

the pheromone trap (get ownership) and the bomb (kill) trap
pheromone trap is making me extremely crazy as a keeper if you send in a big bully and the players simply turn it on their side ...
well bomb trap is also useful of course

pheromone trap effectively shows the disadvanatges of using AI controlled monsters and can be put to good use i think

ok, as i think about it, i may put the glue trap also back into it


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btw, its great that you dont mind i mod your ADD ON, i really think its a great idea - i absolutely love it .of course there were some weaknesses that needed a slight adjustment. for example adding some chests (with points) greatly improves the game dynamics, and makes the game playable after all, since as it was the KEEPER could simply hide somewhere behind tons of doors and nobody could reach him anyways


btw, if someone has old, cheap, non finished, awkward, abadoned, whatever dungeon maps, im eager to work on them and put them into the add on

[Mabuse]

ok, new version 0.3.0 is out

fixes some slight bugs, added new point system, added sme symbols to the upgrade section, lowring and raisin gates cost now KEYS (which can be bought in upgrade meu), also lowring and raising gates now makes a sound, and it is impossible for the keeper to raise a gate if a player stand on that hex (players can block gates)

new critters added, also reward for critters have been lowered a bit, lets see if the game is playble in the current state.

[Gambit]

Okay today I obbed a game of 2.6 and a game of 3.0. In the first game the gladiators were licked before turn 15. They lasted longer in 3.0
It seems that the keeper has a much greater ability to spam now.

[Mabuse]

btw, i fixed a small bug in 0.3.0 (and 0.2.6 is also buggy)

new spawn wasn reduced to 1 movement.
i filtered for the spawning hex, and as long only one monster was summoned it worked (thats how far i tested it last friday, lol), but if more than one monster is summoned they start of course on different hexes and thus the filter didnt wrk ...

fixed it
version 0.3.1

@gambit: keeper has normal income as in original version, in fact some monsters even got a bit more expensive (for example golin knight got 1 gold more expensive).

in general the costs are:
original unit cost/2.5 = cost
(only exception are a few monsters)

if you buy a controled then cost is multiplied by 3 (but i guess you know that)


the thing is if he keeper summons a CONTROLLED critter, and if a hero is near the spawning point then the critter might attack, and thus the keper earns money, as the inflicted damage goes directly to the keeper account. it may happen that the keeper can summon more monsters then ....


however, newly bought monsters have now REALLY and absolutely just 1 MP and an attack so dont go next to a spawning point (unless you can block it), else a good keeper will definately attack and possibly kill you.


good keepers also always take care of their pets

[Mabuse]

i made a slight adjustment:

points for critters is raised by +1 for all levels
chests hold 20 gold (+4)
hitpoints cost -1 point (10 --> 9)

now the points for critters is still less then in 0.2.6 but a bit higher, chestgold is a nice add, and hitpoints are still 33% more expensive then in 0.2.6.

i guess thats ok for now, just watched a very good game and must say this game was a good example how the game can be played. (game was played in version 0.3.1 hence the changes)

Gladiators_advanced_0.3.1_example.gz

(25.78 KiB) Downloaded 237 times

in 0.3.2 i also got rid of the shop-items as they just confuse more than they are helpful.
for real usefulness you would need own icons, but i actually want to keep the game compatible with default-wesnoth

also fixed a bug with show upgrade menu

so newest version is 0.3.2

[Mabuse]

another slight update -
players position again a bit buffed

extra weapons start now with 7-4 (former 6-4)

also i added buy "both damage" for 9 points (single melee or ranged cost 6)
and "both strikes" for 27 damage (single melee or ranged cost 18)

so you may grade up both now and save 25%. however this is just to enable another option.
its not said that it is oerall better to invest in both. may also depend on hero in the end.

ambush and nightstalk cost reduced by 1 (10 ---> 9)

0.3.4 it is