Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

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Computer_Player
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

Back again. This time with 3 player FFA. on Ion Quadrant. Really enjoying things so far.

Having unique techs for each of the races is a brilliant idea and helps differentiate them even more. However, as with any asymptotic games, its hard to balance them on the first few tries. Here I will list them and attempt to rate them, with balance suggestions. Note that this is based only on my experience playing 2 games of GE 4.0 , and many games from previous versions of GE.

I will post this section under spoiler in case you want to be surprised by the techs.
Spoiler:

Bugs:
Flight lab is reported to not work in the replay for blue, but it does for me in a different game.

Terraformer does not work on Moon Sand (and I suspect other forms on Sand other than default one.

Suggestions:

The Silverer isn't a very impressive unit after investing so much into it. 20G and a potential drone / scientist. It's also mostly an anti-personnel unit when the most important target during any invasion is the HQ. I suggest changing one of its attacks to Explosive and giving it +2 g when spawning (chalk it up to its existence providing some sort of biological resource)

I really like blockade as a mechanic. However it provides big swings as even one enemy ship can provide massive economic losses. I need more games to solidify my opinion on this, but a suggestion was floated to make it -30% income per blockading ship (not including transporters) with a maximum of 90%
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3p - GE Zeta Quadrant FFA replay 20220401-232223.gz
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Last edited by Computer_Player on April 2nd, 2022, 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Ozyllwynog »

Just on the flightlab issue, I was the blue player in the replay above. You can see on the replay, between these turns: 4-5, 6-7, 7-10, I make no RP at all, despite having several researchers in a flightlab transport and seeing +(2,3,4) in the RP counter. When I realise on turn 10 and offload my researchers, I then begin to gain RP.

Blockade is a strange one. As it has a huge effect on a small map with few planets, and a less of an effect on a large map with many planets. I like the idea of it scaling up by the number of enemy ships in orbit, maybe taking the planet's size into account?

On the subject of balance, the lildari ships seem underpowered to me.
They have speed, mechanics like conceal and stasis, and +10% terrain defence, but this doesn't make up for their weakness.
They don't have high hp (less than average if anything), their weapons aren't significantly more powerful, and they definitely aren't cheaper than others, but somehow they have a -30% weakness to all the most common weapon types.

In the first replay Computer_Player posted he had a vastly superior economy, at one point stockpiling over 200 gold. Yet Vendeeni ships blasted through that stockpile and erased that whole advantage within a few turns of pitched battle.
I think they could use some additional tweaking.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

Oh hey you found the thread! The first replay I think I just over extended and lost fair and square XD I wanted to end things with a bit of flair. Main thing was I was I kept getting level 3 units when I should have maybe went with level 2 + level 1 instead. Another was I was unable to teleport my other troops to the invaded planet due to a level 1 enemy unit being beside the HQ. So I lost that planet I heavily invested in to start the end game. GG though.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Bob_The_Mighty »

Thanks for all the feedback, this is really useful. It was good to watch the replay of your games, I also spotted a few extra things.
I think I've fixed the flightlab bug (seems to only misbehave when all inventors are in transit) so there will be an update soon.
The custom GE AI is pretty much there as well, so feedback on that would be very handy.

By the way, the Iildari ships are supposed to be fast with good defence, which is why they have poor resistances (actually, the Terran scout line is the same). Think of them as the fencers of space. Having said that, I'm totally open to suggestions and improvements, particularly in terms of balancing the units and factions (I've already nerfed the aliens).
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by mattsc »

Hello All,

I am happy to announce that the first version of the Galactic Empires AI modification has been uploaded to the 1.16 add-ons server. This AI is able to play any of the GE maps and use all of the GE mechanics. It can be activated by checking its box in the MP Create Game dialog, after which it becomes the default AI for all computer player sides.

Please consider this a beta (experimental) version at this time. I have done a lot of "technical testing", making sure that all the mechanics work and trying to fix as many bugs as I could find. In addition, Bob has played quite a few test games. Nevertheless, I am sure that we will discover new bugs and issues once others keep using the AI. This is also the reason why we are keeping this as a separate add-on for the time being, so that we can deploy quick fixes without requiring a full GE update each time. In the future, once it's become more stable, we may or may not merge the AI into GE.
Disclaimers
As with any Wesnoth AI, don't expect it to play like a human player. I started this as an experiment to see whether it is even possible to write an AI that is able to play GE. We then set the goal for it to be able to play complete games as a learning-the-ropes tool for new players. That's probably the state it is in right now, it definitely won't be able to keep up with an experienced player. But my hope is that, in addition to making stepping into GE a bit easier, it is still some fun to play for others as well.

Also be aware that the more complex a setup you use, the more issues the AI has. For example, it definitely has trouble when there are aliens on the planets. Bob and I have worked on that a lot and it is quite a bit better than the initial version, but it's still struggling with aliens. Similarly, I think it does better on 2p maps than when there are more sides.
If you want to help improve the AI
As always, please report any errors you encounter, including the exact error message, the versions of GE and GE-AI used, and ideally a replay or save from which the error can be reproduced.

Also, I'll appreciate any suggestions how the gameplay could be improved (within the limitations of a Wesnoth AI). I don't promise that I will follow up on all of them, or even know how to follow up on them, but I definitely will consider and appreciate all feedback.

If you play for the specific purpose of testing the AI, please play with fog/shroud off. It is much easier to comment on the AI behavior if one can actually see what the AI does. ;-) Obviously, this does not apply if you're not playing for that purpose.
Well, long story short, I hope you will all continue to enjoy Bob's wonderful era. And maybe this AI will make getting started with it just a little easier for newcomers.


For the record, there is also a GitHub repository for the AI code.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by max_torch »

Can I make a petition for anyone to upload one game of Galactic Empires on YouTube? So that we have a better idea of what a game is like and how to play it.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

max_torch wrote: April 7th, 2022, 10:25 pm Can I make a petition for anyone to upload one game of Galactic Empires on YouTube? So that we have a better idea of what a game is like and how to play it.
Download and play the "1p - GE Tutorial" to get a gist of what to do and then try some vsAI matches. I learnt it that way.

Also, I downloaded both the AI mod and the updated GE addon to play it...will be posting some replays
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

2p - GE Alpha Quadrant replay 20220409-012305.gz
(62.59 KiB) Downloaded 53 times
First game vs new AI mod.

I am not a veteren of GE so I cannot really point out much, but seems the AI should be able to do...like...upgrade its side's planets to spacedock like I did to establish a combat station near the combat region to supply more fighter class ships.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

Good day. I will now complete the task which I posted about earlier, which is namely, to list the new faction specific Techs and provide feedback and rate them on a scale of 0-5 Where 0 is never get and 5 is priority asap get in general terms. This of course is going to be subjective and which you get depends on the extant battle situation.

Attached will be the local test game replay which I used to research this, if that would be useful. On a related note, I would like to report a GUI bug wherein the display bugged out when in a window of only 50% size (i.e. display started to repeat across the screen when I drag things around). I will also be attaching replays of recent GE games that I have had, but will have to defer commenting on them on a different time.

The Tech List and Feedback. This will be in spoiler tags for those who would like to discover for themselves.
Spoiler:
Other Note:
I find the Eta aliens very powerful especially the spider which is hard to get rid off when playing Iildari. I think we need more testing with players familiar with the map to see if there is a big player 1 advantage allowing for them to steal other side's planets without too much sacrifice in normal play. Similarly to see if there is a big Dwartha advantage given the abundance of tiles and placements that favor Dwartha moveset.



I hope you all will find this useful.
Attachments
4p - GE Isar's Sector Test replay 20220415-162635.gz
(48.63 KiB) Downloaded 43 times
2p - GE Eta Quadrant replay 20220415-152147.gz
(63.28 KiB) Downloaded 35 times
2p - GE Eta Quadrant replay 20220414-003155.gz
(66.48 KiB) Downloaded 47 times
Last edited by Computer_Player on April 23rd, 2022, 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

Bug Report on Alpha Quadrant Game by Z_Z and me at the start. He is using 1.16.2
GE Bug.png
GE Bug 2.png
2p - GE Alpha Quadrant-Auto-Save1.gz
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mattsc
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by mattsc »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: April 8th, 2022, 7:24 pm I am not a veteren of GE so I cannot really point out much, but seems the AI should be able to do...like...upgrade its side's planets to spacedock like I did to establish a combat station near the combat region to supply more fighter class ships.
It absolutely is able to do that and it will, given enough gold. In fact, spacedocks get a bonus to their rating when enemy ships are close. But the costs of upgrades need to be balanced against other expenses (specifically also against recruiting ships) and spacedocks are expensive, so they just never made it to the top of the list with the gold the AI had. It's possible that the priorities are not set correctly at the moment, but I'll need more than one instance in a game and input from the veteran players to change those.

However, as Bob pointed out to me, that's not the main problem in this replay. When we set up the strategy for the AI, we went by the assumption that colonising is always done first by all players and that it therefore can simply be the first priority for the AI. You didn't do that, and went more or less straight for the AI homeworld with only some colonising along the way. The AI noticed that there are quite a few neutral planets left and kept recruiting transporters instead of combat ships even while its homeworld was under attack. I definitely need to do something about that.

Computer_Player wrote: April 16th, 2022, 2:52 am Bug Report on Alpha Quadrant Game by Z_Z and me at the start. He is using 1.16.2
That's strange. Those messages mean that the AI code was not found. Was this a game where one of you had the AI add-on installed and the other did not? Even if that is the case, I still don't understand it. I thought the AI code in Wesnoth is run by the host and it does not matter if other players have it installed. But it would at least give me a starting point for investigating this. Maybe I have set things up incorrectly, I am not all that familiar with how exactly this works in MP games. If that is the case, it will at least give you a simple work-around for now, by having all players install the add-on (and check its modification box).
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

Now that I read the actual error logs it seems that is in deed the case.

I am host, and I have the Galactic Empires AI mod checked (but, t we don't have any side with the AI, aside from neutral critters).

I will attempt a game with it unchecked to see if the errors still appear. Thanks!

Edit1: I just realized now but you can pick what your starting flagship is. This will have big implications on what strategy you can go with in the early game - especially for those who end up with Lvl 2 anti-matter ships which can go full aggro and destroy planets much much earlier. It remains to me seen if I would suggest removing antimatter ships from the flagship options, for now, more testing needs to be done.

Edit2: I tested turning off the GE AI and it was confirmed by Z_Z that there were no bugs from his side now.

Edit3: Cloner doesn't seem to be useful as it needs a wraparound of the food stores to produce the next unit. There is never going to be enough food do this until super super late game (around 30) and only on certain very large planets, such as the HQ. by then, there is not much use to get that many extra planet side units.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by mattsc »

Computer_Player wrote: April 16th, 2022, 11:05 pm Edit2: I tested turning off the GE AI and it was confirmed by Z_Z that there were no bugs from his side now.
Thanks for confirming this. So at least we have a working solution for the time being, while I figure out how to fix this.
Computer_Player wrote: April 16th, 2022, 11:05 pm I am host, and I have the Galactic Empires AI mod checked (but, t we don't have any side with the AI, aside from neutral critters).
Yeah, certain parts of the AI framework get set up whether there is an AI side or not. I still don't know off the top of my head why this causes the problems you saw, but it's probably not all that difficult to fix.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Another replay. Had 4 unique factions at random this time.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

New replay on Beta Quadrant Map

Vendeeni vs Terran.

With this I think flagships need some work as certain level 2 ships need to be removed from the selection options. Antimatter ships, and basically other special ability ships.

In this match, the darkspace produced by the level 2 flagship just destroyed my ability to deal with his ships under its influence AND also boosted his Mites to absurd heights relatively early in the game. With the stacked bonuses and debuffs, it was effectively +25% ToD +25% Flagship +50% Broadside, -25% retal from ToD.

The major reason I was able to hold a bit on was my superior economic base, but ultimately I was unable to cross swords effectively as most of his ships just 1v1's mine to death with no retal possible. There were avenues available for me, but on a more even game (enemy was not familiar with the map, my Flagship was Terran Antimatter ship with horrible luck), Terrans would be greatly favored to lose given such flagships and Mite being able to kill its supposed "counter" ship still on a 1-1 basis. I believe Mite should be 5-2 broadside

The loss message when your HQ is destroyed is a nice surprise and a good ending, didn't expect such a nice touch on something like that.

On a different Note. It was floated in the chat near the end that it was hard to do invasions on a larger scale. A interesting suggestion was to make Academy available to all, providing the ability to draft workers on the planet it is in using a right click menu (perhaps make this Tier 1 tech) to allow for a more aggressive invasion strategy.

Attached is the replay, and many thanks for the fun game.
2p - GE Beta Quadrant replay 20220417-234107.gz
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Last edited by Computer_Player on April 18th, 2022, 10:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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