Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.6.2 - now on Ko-fi!

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SchnubillytheKid
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by SchnubillytheKid »

Hi there! I have been enjoying this Era for the past couple days, and I'm very impressed by it. However, since I like the World Conquest II mode that's in the basegame now, I have come across a couple of uncompatible pairings, specifically with the traits added by this Era.

For context: I was playing Destroyers with a Punisher as my hero. First thing I noticed were the weak and slow traits, and I've gathered that this is a specific nerf to hero punisher. The weird interaction here is that I got another set of weak and slow when I completed the first scenario, and every scenario thereafter, which I believe to be a bug.

Next problem I encountered was when I picked up and item that gave me slows on my melee. I figured it should work on the all around attack, but it did not, sadly. Not sure if this interaction is desired or not, but I ask you to at least consider compatibility for that.
Another problem similar in nature was when I picked up an item that gave me drains. This one I found rather weird to not be working, since the triple strike drains hydra works just fine. Again, I ask you to consider compatibility for this interaction, as it feels rather natural to the era.
What I have yet to test is picking up melee: plague as an item, but I'd assume that it won't work either.

In short: As a fan of both this Era and World Conquest, please add compatibility between the items in world conquest and this era's cool traits. There are likely more interactions that won't work the way you'd expect to on paper. If World Conquest interactions is something you don't have time to allocate for in your development, that's perfectly understandable. Just wanted to throw this out here :)

Edit: Another thing I noticed which I am curious about, is it intended that Omen+ (or rather, the all around trait) does not get experience from kills with the trait? Would that be considered too strong?
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by IPS »

SchnubillytheKid wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:45 pm Edit: Another thing I noticed which I am curious about, is it intended that Omen+ (or rather, the all around trait) does not get experience from kills with the trait? Would that be considered too strong?
Personally I think that allowing AoD that also applies slow is bit too strong (I mean slowing multiple targets in one turn from a single interaction). I would leave that as how it's actually, not being capable to slow multiple targets in case unit gains +slow special from RPG or item upgrades.

Second is, triple strike is actually applying drains, but area of attack is not because there was no case in which this happened. Still sounds logic that allowing multiple area of damage drains makes sense as in triple strike it applies correctly.

Lastly, I agree that not gathering any XP in Area of Damage is actually a problem, mostly in AE_EoMa ecosystem this issue been already detected and spotted, still will re mention to Ravana in case this does happen in EoMa out of Ageless Era too. I think that this is a bug and must be fixed.

In any case, we will wait for inferno8 or forest dragon about an official desition about each one of this case, but it's really good you posted and commented few or several days before an huge release !
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by Ravana »

https://github.com/inferno8/wesnoth-Era ... -905770384 describes desired xp mechanics. Since they do not work currently I will have to fix them before next ageless update. While I assume it is something I need to fix in EoMa repository, it could instead be that update script needs to take some content from files it currently ignores.

Imo slow+all around should not slow all around, it should need separate special slowaround for that.

Triple strike does not apply drain, it has custom hp manipulation during hits. Since omen does not have drain, there was no need for that logic there.
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by SchnubillytheKid »

That's really interesting and good to know. If you guys have the capacity, please decide for the following interactions too - im just gonna list every item effect from World Conquest where I think interaction decision is necessary with the AOE traits.

-backstab
-charge
-plague
-feeding
-poison
-magical

Thank you so much for even looking at these interactions that don't happen in your era normally. I really appreciate it :D
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by IPS »

SchnubillytheKid wrote: June 5th, 2023, 2:42 pm That's really interesting and good to know. If you guys have the capacity, please decide for the following interactions too - im just gonna list every item effect from World Conquest where I think interaction decision is necessary with the AOE traits.

-backstab
-charge
-plague
-feeding
-poison
-magical

Thank you so much for even looking at these interactions that don't happen in your era normally. I really appreciate it :D
Personally as balancer , I know some of these options are not quite fair at all if implemented :lol: , let me explain short cases I'm sure that will never be implemented.

- charge, it's obvious, the most powerful of all ... x2 AoD without risks and area of damage is very broken. You can still give charge item to a no-counter-attack unit to literally gain x2 damage output for literally costless.

- Backstab , just because it makes no sense how you can backstab several targets in one attack in one interaction, it's unrealistic and makes no sense at all.

- Plague , well, that makes sense if being added, but getting multiple kills in one turn and multiple walking corpses that also can ruin your own positioning not sure if will be a good or bad addition, I'm neutral on this one.

- Poison , well poison AoD doesn't seem as strong as many other options, specially if you're owning an army of lv3. Still I doubt they will include this specific interaction for something that naturally can't poison at all.

- Feeding I think that one should be working correctly, after all it's just an event that occurs after a kill, and allowing AoD kills count for feeding could be an addition that might be good to consider.

- Magical, I suspect that increasing base accuracy should also increase probabilities of applying damage from AOD, not sure, but is my suspection only. In case it doesn't , still would be a very powerful interaction...

About these 6 specifications, I'm not exactly EoMa dev, I'm just chief on balance in EoMa and Ageless, and this is just my opinion about each individual case.

Even in Ageless I'm considering about increasing the mount of living units that will be inmune to AwE (AE 4.30 will include the very first as a test) , and some other will be planned for AE 4.31) just to increase the fairness of Omen+ in Ageless ecosystem, awe in lv3 and lv4 is really big aura and sometimes too strong out of EoMa ecosystem.
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by inferno8 »

Hello, SchnubillytheKid :)
SchnubillytheKid wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:45 pm First thing I noticed were the weak and slow traits, and I've gathered that this is a specific nerf to hero punisher. The weird interaction here is that I got another set of weak and slow when I completed the first scenario, and every scenario thereafter, which I believe to be a bug.
Thank you for reporting this. The bug has been fixed for the upcoming EoMa 4.1.
SchnubillytheKid wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:45 pm Next problem I encountered was when I picked up and item that gave me slows on my melee. I figured it should work on the all around attack, but it did not, sadly. Not sure if this interaction is desired or not, but I ask you to at least consider compatibility for that.
In reality the "all around" weapon special is composed of two stages. The first one is a typical one-on-one attack used by 99.9% of units. The second stage performs an "artificial" attack executed right after the first one using [harm_unit] inside a special array. Both make "all around" work as intended, but only the first attack gets specials, because the engine does not support true multihex attacks, afaik. That's why there are two stages, which act as a workaround. And because of that reason there are certain limitations.
Implementing support for slow, drain and other specials might be possible, but it would probably 1) require a lot of work 2) completely destroy WC balance (as IPS already mentioned, that would make units with all around extremely overpowered). For that reason, I am not going to implement World Conquest items support for EoMa multihex attacks, sorry.
SchnubillytheKid wrote: June 4th, 2023, 8:45 pm Edit: Another thing I noticed which I am curious about, is it intended that Omen+ (or rather, the all around trait) does not get experience from kills with the trait? Would that be considered too strong?
There are plans to implement XP gain from Area of Effect kills, but this also will require a lot of work and testing. I cannot guarantee it will be fixed for the upcoming update.
IPS wrote: June 4th, 2023, 9:19 pm it's really good you posted and commented few or several days before an huge release !
Exactly. Well, personally I don't think the 4.1 will be huge, but it will certainly change a few things here and there and add 2 new units. There will be a huge TLU 3.8 update soon, though. I'll release it along EoMa 4.1 so be sure to keep an eye out!
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by Ravana »

When is the release planned? I can take care of kill xp before that then.
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by inferno8 »

Ravana wrote: June 5th, 2023, 5:50 pm When is the release planned? I can take care of kill xp before that then.
Within 2 weeks. I would like to have the new version released before Battle for Wesnoth 20th Anniversary, which falls on June 18. The truth is everything is almost ready (excluding that kill xp fix). I just need to implement a few very small balance tweaks to some Tharis units, update the translation template file, run some maintenance tools and write a changelog.

@IPS: Should units with the "all around" weapon special be rebalanced in case they get a fix allowing them to gain third party kill xp?
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by IPS »

inferno8 wrote: June 5th, 2023, 6:07 pm
@IPS: Should units with the "all around" weapon special be rebalanced in case they get a fix allowing them to gain third party kill xp?
Problem is that not counting XP kills from AoD leads to even to a more unfair situation, not counting XP on kills could even be more favorable for enemy than to yourlself event. So I think that there is no balanced term, but no XP on AoD is even more unfair than allowing AoD kill experience.

Something that could help at balancing is that as soon as enemies are taking damage from AoD to be gaining some XP. To explain it better this would be how I balance the AoD mechanism.

This lead me to think what situation should be the most fair for all units...

All-Around
- Enemies taking damage from AoD adquiring very few XP in compensation (this would prevent situations that certain enemy is at 1 XP to level and then destroyers killing a full HP unit out of pure AoD without giving any XP to that enemy unit, allowing an impossible kill). Not sure if you want this value be Unit level -1 XP from AoD experience gain for enemies or just as normal (as much as surviving a direct combat againist this unit).
- Kills using All-Around would give XP to attacker normally, while attacker would not gain XP from area of damage mechanism unless archieving a kill.

Units that have area of damage special (omen, mistress of light) have very powerful attacks. Rewarding XP just in case enemy unit takes damage from these attacks could be fair.

Triple-strike
- Kills from this special , would give normal XP to unit. Problem is that units that use this attack are very few (hydra) , but if hydra attacks and deals 1 strike damage for a target because of being swarmed at too few strikes, this would lead that enemy unit gaining XP for literally almost no damage taken. Other case featuring triple-strike is the new unit the chain-lady, it deals massive 9-2 triple-strike which in case it procs a triple-strike event it deals a massive 9 blade damage to enemy. On this case would be fair giving defender some XP in compesation because of AoD taken.

In resume, triple-strike should give XP to enemy in case it took some damages, while having a very special exception for attacks with swarm, which could be (Level -1) XP from AoD damage taken.

Cleave
- Enemies slain by cleave, should give normal XP to killer (same as other two specials)
- Enemies that took damage from cleave event should be rewarded in XP, cleave is particular good because if two units are in 60% and 40% , you have better chances to harm the unit on 60% defense at attacking the unit at 40% defense and dealing just a small part of that damage but with more chances... which means higher defense unit is more likely to get harmed from Cleave AoD than from a direct attack ...

On this case, enemies being harmed by AoD cleave would get rewarded with moderate XP because of working more like a normal engage.

Other AoD attacks (Dragon Breath, Master of Earth landmass, Guru's landmass, etc)
- Attacker should gain XP as a kill is performed, while himself would not gain XP from harmed units (same as all other AoD)
- Damaged units by AoD specials, appart of taking damage, should gain XP in compensation.


This topic would require a real overview with the XP gained from being damaged by AoD, as some attacks are very strong and giving no XP but taking damages well... said it can make possible to kill a full HP lv1 unit that was about 1 XP to level up and from all AoD damages the unit still die in a situation that nothing else could kill it (except berserk or charges, but both specials allow that at the cost of certain risk ofc) ...

Other case that causes this problem are goblin kamikazes, they deal massive 20 fire damage or 13 impact damage and literally, this event gives no XP to enemies, I would think that giving at least 2 XP from this interaction would help a bit in case this type of units is abused (as for example, certain quequo scenario which makes AI recruit several of them :whistle: ) , swamp spirit can deal damage to enemy units and still give no XP to them.
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by inferno8 »

At first glance this looks similar to what I described on github. I agree that third party should get fight XP only if they receive AoE damage. This makes sense, I guess.
IPS wrote: June 5th, 2023, 6:41 pm Not sure if you want this value be Unit level -1 XP from AoD experience gain for enemies or just as normal (as much as surviving a direct combat againist this unit).
I don't want to over-complicate things. XP calculation should stay as close as possible to normal base-game behavior.

@Ravana: implementing all those fight and kill XP rules for AoE specials won't be an easy task. I am already fairly happy with all the things already implemented for 4.1, so there is no need to rush. This task can be done for 4.2 or later versions. We are all volunteers here. ;)
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by Ravana »

I have plan how to automate unit tests by modification since dedicated wml unit tests dont work for addons. Considering some of xp should be random that will require looping until damage has been done or not done before checking xp.
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by IPS »

Realized about a fact that concerns the most in PVE specially againist enemies that spawn peridiocally and not in large waves with a specific unit. The solution of that od issue would be creating a new unit as lv3 promotion and nerfing the special ... but as I do know it would take LONG to implement, will list that in 4.2 instead of this release. Will explain this here.

Cyclops necromancer: it's found that of all corpse generator/spammers , this unit is the only one that is been used (Lv3 Extinct Cyclops Mage is unused and the use of Harbinger/Doom-calls is not as popular as I would have expect) , fact is that unit's reward from gaining a single necromancer is huge for the too low invested XP from that. I got some ideas to rebuild summon undead special.

Spawn undead: It's the same as summon undead , with the only difference it cannot generate some of the best zombie variations which are (from best to nice):
- Kamikaze goblin
- Slowers in overall
- Wyverns
- Berserkers in overall
- Cyclops
- Toads

Yeah, defining a nerfed version of Summon undead will have certain use because I will explain why this thing.

Summon undead: will remain as we know it, absolutely random, incluiding best zombies variations. Getting weaker gobbos in rolls helps this to not be so overpowered.

Now that we defined this , idea will be the following (for 4.2):

1) Cyclops Necromancer --- Summon Undead(4) being reworked to Spawn Undead(3) , having new advancement option: Cyclops grand necromancer (in fact, idea is forcing players to spend XP in this unit to adquire the previous values of summon undead in lv2) , unit will also gain stronger stats. Later will think in a more correct pricing for lv2.
- NEW UNIT stats: 7-3 blade melee, 20-1 cold ranged +magical, 11-2 arcane ranged +magical, HP 52 , movement 6 , price: 57g , summon undead(4) , healundead(8)
Unit to be gained would require lv2 cyclops necromanced spend 100 XP (70 in 70% XP modifier) just to be slightly stronger and have as much summoning undead potential...) otherwhise, player will get nerfed -1 zombie count and no chances for best variations.

2) Greater Cyclops Skeleton having Spawn Undead(1) , and little some extra gold cost in 4.2
3) Extinct Cyclops Mage having summon undead(1) , slightly more expensive in gold cost in 4.2
4) Fallen Cyclops King having both Summon undead(1) and Spawn Undead(1) , slightly more expensive in gold cot in 4.2

IPS , why this change? because otherwise NOBODY will be using the other patch that can level up to lv4. Idea is that if player gets few lv2 cyclops they can micro some small army of corpses without the forced need of cyclops necromancer. While ONE cyclops necromancer is extremely powerful as bait generator and force AI to ruin its positioning, I personally think that if normal cyclops skeltons can do part of the same, they would become more popular as unit. Other point is that destroyers have quite costy lv2/lv3 units , AI was still spamming pretty much lv2/lv3 cyclops skeletons in a point that it was not so healthy for itself to have too many squishy mages ... STILL, if they cost higher and if AI gets tempted to spam these, it would be more dynamic and more interesting to fight.


Other thing that I do personally have planned for 4.2 release is also another lv3 pricing overview, EoMa costs are quite low in lv3's compared to other eras with the modifications of balance that will occur in wesnoth 1.18 (and in soon ageless standarized to this pattern) , which leaves that if someone host WC II scenario and AI gets EoMa faction it will be unfairly harder than if gaining any other faction from AE. Which means, in scenarios, pricement can be saved to maintain TLU experience unmodified.

Previous testings in random generated map just cleanned like 75% or even more of pricement disblaances in Master's version of the era (lv3 pricing mostly) , while not being a defenitive cure , specially with default being modified) , still I trust in actual lv2 being fair in almost any cases which fortunately lv2 pricing will not require much revision. But in general, EoMa lv3 an lv4 will get more expensive as well in 4.2.

Random stuff in post:
- Dwarvish Soldier HP to 67 (+2)
- Constructor AMLA XP value to 126 (+15)

Edit: option B for lv4 cyclops mage, having invocate undead (instead of the both lesser versions) , which is the same as summon undead but only having BEST zombies variations but only x1 per unit (obviously not in RPG xD) , forgot to mention to increase the heal undead on cyclops grand necromancer
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by inferno8 »

IPS wrote: June 8th, 2023, 3:58 am Cyclops necromancer: it's found that of all corpse generator/spammers , this unit is the only one that is been used (Lv3 Extinct Cyclops Mage is unused and the use of Harbinger/Doom-calls is not as popular as I would have expect) , fact is that unit's reward from gaining a single necromancer is huge for the too low invested XP from that. I got some ideas to rebuild summon undead special.
Instead of redesigning Cyclops Necromancer's abilities I think it would be more optimal to make this particular unit an alternative lvl4 for Undead Cyclops King. The "summon undead" ability can be extremely powerful especially in the long run + the summoning is completely free, so this lvl2 unit is already far better than all high level Summoners. I would even consider this as an S-tier ability - one of the best in the whole Era. That's why I think making Cyclops Necromancer a lvl4 unit would solve most issues here. But of course I am open for discussion.
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by ForestDragon »

inferno8 wrote: June 8th, 2023, 6:20 pm Instead of redesigning Cyclops Necromancer's abilities I think it would be more optimal to make this particular unit an alternative lvl4 for Undead Cyclops King. The "summon undead" ability can be extremely powerful especially in the long run + the summoning is completely free, so this lvl2 unit is already far better than all high level Summoners. I would even consider this as an S-tier ability - one of the best in the whole Era. That's why I think making Cyclops Necromancer a lvl4 unit would solve most issues here. But of course I am open for discussion.
Making it lvl4 would mean the unit would almost not to see normal use. But raising the level does seem to be a reasonable solution. I think reworking the cyclops into a lvl3 unit would be a reasonable compromise.
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Re: Era of Magic (EoMa) 4.0 - new units and 24fps standing animations!

Post by IPS »

ForestDragon wrote: June 9th, 2023, 5:42 am
inferno8 wrote: June 8th, 2023, 6:20 pm Instead of redesigning Cyclops Necromancer's abilities I think it would be more optimal to make this particular unit an alternative lvl4 for Undead Cyclops King. The "summon undead" ability can be extremely powerful especially in the long run + the summoning is completely free, so this lvl2 unit is already far better than all high level Summoners. I would even consider this as an S-tier ability - one of the best in the whole Era. That's why I think making Cyclops Necromancer a lvl4 unit would solve most issues here. But of course I am open for discussion.
Making it lvl4 would mean the unit would almost not to see normal use. But raising the level does seem to be a reasonable solution. I think reworking the cyclops into a lvl3 unit would be a reasonable compromise.
That idea is equivalent to mine abuot forcing players to more XP to spend more XP to get the same special as we do, but requiring full lv4 would make the unit/special to be really rarely seen, still, it's among best specials in the whole era and a lv2 having it will make invisible some other options in destroyers faction. It's more similat to my suggestion about creating a nerfed version of summon undead for lv2 to then regain it as we know it at lv3.

Still as infenro8 said, that skill is worth as lv4 skill, only thing is that spending massive 310-320 XP's for such thing will make using that very rare and seen in a realy minority of games, and destroyers in masters version of the era usually gets outnumbered , but cyclops necromancer in low lv2 was the only cure to this situation. Still, that special been extremely nerfed from 6 zombies to just 4 and now this xD

But the thing is, I didn't post earlier because I'm not sure what to post or comment about this, still some people likes more my offer, but that's still OP as well (but more similar to what people are used to in actuality). But for sure, situation with lv2 summon undead is defenetively not balanced lol , even any change is wellcome as how I could see in wesnoth multiplayer lobbies :lol: :lol: :lol:
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