A Proposed Change to Healing

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A Proposed Change to Healing

Post by Sapient » April 3rd, 2007, 2:10 am

I'd like to propose a simplification to allied healing. Namely, that the injured unit should be healed by allied healers on the ally's turn AND healed by both the ally healers and its own side's healers on its own turn, however, with the maximum healing any unit can receive over the entire round being the maximum healing received from any one source. Rest healing would stack on top of all that, as it does now.

(With regards to poison, it should not be cured or slowed at any time other than at the beginning of the poisoned unit's turn. Healers cannot heal the unit until after its poison has been removed.)
Last edited by Sapient on June 6th, 2010, 7:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: changed proposal with regards to poison
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Post by Ultimatum479 » April 3rd, 2007, 7:51 am

That doesn't really make sense, though. Healing doesn't have anything to do with the injured unit. It has to do with the healer, and therefore it has to be done when the healer has time to cast his/her spell, as in on his/her turn.
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Post by CIB » April 3rd, 2007, 8:27 am

I think that needs testing, actually I think you should be able to define that in WML. Scenarios where this is most important are 4-5 players RPGs, but maybe it would overpower the healer, if he could heal by allies moving to him and by moving to allies. But it might be different for different scenarios. So, I suggest making that definable in WML, something like ally_heal_own_turn and ally_heal_ally_turn for the sides/game_config.

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Post by Ultimatum479 » April 3rd, 2007, 10:24 am

What I think would be cooler is if healers healed at the end of their turns instead of the beginning. It might make healers too powerful, though. I'll see if I can edit the characters to do that (I've never played around with that yet, or even made my own map, so it'll be a while) and playtest it.
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Post by Sapient » April 3rd, 2007, 11:30 am

CIB wrote:Scenarios where this is most important are 4-5 players RPGs, but maybe it would overpower the healer, if he could heal by allies moving to him and by moving to allies.
Yes and no. Individual healers would be able to heal effectively twice as many units (if you really max them out). However, you would no longer be able to stack allied healers onto a single unit to boost his HP massive amounts.
CIB wrote:I suggest making that definable in WML, something like ally_heal_own_turn and ally_heal_ally_turn for the sides/game_config.
Definitely not going to happen; OAB.
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Re: A Proposed Change to Healing

Post by tsr » April 3rd, 2007, 11:56 am

Sapient wrote:with the maximum healing any unit can receive over the entire round being the maximum healing received from any one source, or 0 if the unit is poisoned or cured of poison during that round. Rest healing would stack on top of all that, as it does now.
I don't really understand what you are saying here, please clarify.

I interpret this as units can only get treated once per round. If it is so, how is it worked out. I mean if it's random, there are bound to be some terrible side effects, like a max-4hp unit getting treated by a +8healer and a a poisoned one being treated by a no-curer instead of the opposite.

Other than that, I think it's an ilogical solution, as someone stated: healing is an ability of the healer (be it unit or terrain) not of of the injured unit.

The drawbacks, massive HP due to unlimited healing in multiside teams is more like an incentive to do good teamplay.

/tsr

ps. and yes I've read the patch/bug comments on this matter too

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Re: A Proposed Change to Healing

Post by Sapient » April 3rd, 2007, 12:35 pm

tsr wrote: I interpret this as units can only get treated once per round. If it is so, how is it worked out. I mean if it's random, there are bound to be some terrible side effects, like a max-4hp unit getting treated by a +8healer and a a poisoned one being treated by a no-curer instead of the opposite.
I really don't know how you read my words and ended up with that interpretation. That's quite different what I'm proposing. Try reading it again?

Maybe if I define a few terms:
round - the time spanning from the end of the injured unit's side turn, until that side again regains active control.

Also, the limit applies to what a unit can receive over that time, not to what a healer can give other units over that time. There is no limit to how many times a unit may be treated, as long as its total amount the unit is healed during the round does not exceeded the highest amount the unit is healed from any one source.

All of this would play out a lot simpler than it sounds, I think. ;)
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Post by tsr » April 3rd, 2007, 1:11 pm

Well, sorry I've tried to reread it many times, but I still can't figure it out.

(I'm not trying anything but actually to understand what your proposal is)

As you obviously have a clear view of what you are saying, can you please answer the following questions:

- do you intend for units to only be able to heal 8 (or cure poison) + rest-heal /round no matter how many healers are around?
- do you intend for this healing to take place either at the start of the units own turn or at the beginning of allied healers turns.
- will it be possible for a poisoned unit to first not suffer from poison (by standing next to an elvish shaman) and then heal poison by standing next to a white mage?
- each healer can only heal every unit once per round, so standing by an allied elvish shaman doesn't heal 8 (4 on units turn + 4 on shamans turn)
- a unit might heal 4 from a shaman and then another 4 by standing next to a WM

/tsr

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Post by CIB » April 3rd, 2007, 1:34 pm

Er, what does OAB mean?

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Post by Sapient » April 3rd, 2007, 1:43 pm

tsr wrote: - do you intend for units to only be able to heal 8 (or cure poison) + rest-heal /round no matter how many healers are around?
In short, yes.
tsr wrote: - do you intend for this healing to take place either at the start of the units own turn or at the beginning of allied healers turns.
Both. This is the main novelty of the proposal.
tsr wrote: - will it be possible for a poisoned unit to first not suffer from poison (by standing next to an elvish shaman) and then heal poison by standing next to a white mage?
Yes. Slowing poison is a passive effect that has no bearing on subsequent side-turns (other than preventing the damage from poison --trunk).
tsr wrote: - each healer can only heal every unit once per round, so standing by an allied elvish shaman doesn't heal 8 (4 on units turn + 4 on shamans turn)
Basically, in my proposal an allied healer has two chances to transfer their healing power. In this case, the unit would be healed 4 at the first opportunity, and 0 at the second opportunity. The amount that the shaman would heal on the second occaision (4) is not greater than the amount that has been reached for that round (4). 4-4=0. So on the second opportunity, 0 healing is transferred.
tsr wrote: - a unit might heal 4 from a shaman and then another 4 by standing next to a WM
Yes
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Post by tsr » April 3rd, 2007, 2:22 pm

Ok, thanks Sapient, now I got it :)

Still I think it's a bad proposal, I really think healing is an ability of the healer, but otoh how is leadership really working. Argh, too much to think of...

Ok, I take that back, I think it would be good if healing worked the way you proposed (not that my input is that valuable, but anyway :))

This would make it more analogous with other area affecting abilities (or at least how they should work - if allied leadership hasn't been fixed yet, damn I pay too little attention to the game when I play).

Area affecting abilities that I think (should) work the same are:
- healing
- leadership
- illuminate

The big problem is how to explain this to the player in an efficient manner.

/tsr
ps. @CIB OAB = options are bad

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Post by CIB » April 3rd, 2007, 2:37 pm

tsr wrote: Still I think it's a bad proposal, I really think healing is an ability of the healer
And since it's an ability of the healer, it makes no sense that the healer has to stand still and the ones to be healed have to move to him.
The big problem is how to explain this to the player in an efficient manner.
The point is, that you don't have to explain it, since it is what one would expect: A unit gets healed by standing next to another unit and it can be healed as much as the best healer next to it can heal per turn.
ps. @CIB OAB = options are bad
Huh, what did he mean by that? The ability to customize your scenario is bad? lol

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Post by UngeheuerLich » April 3rd, 2007, 6:40 pm

good idea, i think...

using healers to heal allies is a real pain now...

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Re:

Post by Sapient » March 9th, 2008, 1:18 am

Sapient wrote:
tsr wrote: - do you intend for units to only be able to heal 8 (or cure poison) + rest-heal /round no matter how many healers are around?
In short, yes.
After thinking on the idea some more, the restriction with not allowing poisoned units to be cured and healed in the same turn adds too much confusion about the true state of the unit. For that reason, I'd like to modify the proposal slightly; it should *not* take into consideration whether or not a unit has recovered from poison on a previous side's turn during that round, but only the amount(s) healed, if any.
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Re: A Proposed Change to Healing

Post by Reisiger » April 7th, 2009, 9:45 pm

*resurrects the post*

After talking with Sapient and crab on irc, I've started working on creating pseudocode (see attachment) dealing with the logical steps in implementing this change.

Kind regards
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change healing behaviour.txt
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