The Deceiver's Gambit - New Mainline Candidate!

[Dalas120]

Thanks for the feedback - it's very useful to hear the things that confused you. I'll get those improved.

The "doesn't use XP to level-up" message only appears once you hit max XP, but it looks like it's really easy to reach max-XP in the first scenario on the lower difficulties. Which is probably why you were confused, if that happened before you were taught that XP can be used to cast spells.

I'll make it harder to hit max XP in the first scenario (which will delay the message until the player understands that XP can be used to cast spells), and will also amend the message to explain that Delfador levels-up automatically throughout the campaign.

Regarding spell XP cost - I haven't run into any balance issues in the past. Shield especially I've found to be a very useful spell - it's PLUS 20%, not a flat 20%, and gaining XP on Delfador gets easier as he gets more powerful but the 8XP cost never changes. That said, do you think I should reword the spell description to make it more clear that it's +20%?

Here's Shield's description right now:

The increased dodge also shows up on the map while Shield is active:

Untitled2.png (66.57 KiB) Viewed 3047 times

[revolting_peasant]

In "The Deceiver" scenario, the Brown allies' attack on the Whitefangs begins at night (!) - on turn 12 (in my play, anyway). It should probably begin at dawn, on the next turn.

[redbeard2]

A good campaign and quite unique, a couple notes I would offer.

On Ruins of Saugrath, I was perturbed by the encounter with the bandits. it VERY much looks like your companion leads you into an ambush, yet if Delfador kills the bandits he still follows her with barely a word, which I find unbelievable. If you pay the ambushers they follow you unto death against any and all foes? It really doesn't make sense for them to be so loyal because they successfully shook you down. I feel the encounter needs rewording or something for these outcomes to make sense.

I found this a generally frustrating level, near impossible without counterspell, and even with it and animate fire it was still a pain, ultimately paying the bandits off seemed to be the more viable choice, but wouldn't be in keeping with Delfador's personality.

The final fight was rather frustrating, I ended up using counterspell, dancing daggers, and animate mud to win, I wonder what other builds worked here

One small note, will the female orcs get a different hit/death sound from the male orcs?

[revolting_peasant]

When Delfador morphs into an animal, but before he's made any moves or attacks - and assuming he has not uncovered terrain with his new form - it should be possible to undo this action. And the same for any spell which has not yet had any effect, I think.

[Dalas120]

In "The Deceiver" scenario, the Brown allies' attack on the Whitefangs begins at night (!) - on turn 12 (in my play, anyway). It should probably begin at dawn, on the next turn.

I'll adjust that. I think that the Second Watch attack is mechanically the strongest - that puts the heaviest fighting at Dawn/Midday/Dusk - but you're not the first person to question it. I'd rather have their attack look correct than be strong, since I can always adjust AI gold to balance things.

On Ruins of Saugrath, I was perturbed by the encounter with the bandits. it VERY much looks like your companion leads you into an ambush, yet if Delfador kills the bandits he still follows her with barely a word, which I find unbelievable. If you pay the ambushers they follow you unto death against any and all foes? It really doesn't make sense for them to be so loyal because they successfully shook you down. I feel the encounter needs rewording or something for these outcomes to make sense.

Hmm... the intent here was that it LOOKS like an ambush, but if you pay them off it turns out they're actually friendly guards - they just made a bad first impression. There's a line in there about "what, you didn’t think we was trying to rob something, did ye? Naw, I’m your guide. I’d never hurt a friend of $companion_name’s."

But of course, you don't find that out if you kill them - it just looks like they're bandits and Delfador foolishly doesn't realize that your companion's led you to them...

I found this a generally frustrating level, near impossible without counterspell, and even with it and animate fire it was still a pain, ultimately paying the bandits off seemed to be the more viable choice, but wouldn't be in keeping with Delfador's personality.

I agree this is a fairly frustrating level. I actually think that killing the bandits and using Animate Fire is the best option, but then you don't have poachers for the next level which makes it harder.

The final fight was rather frustrating, I ended up using counterspell, dancing daggers, and animate mud to win, I wonder what other builds worked here

On the highest difficulty, that's what I usually run too. I've heard stories of other people getting good value out of Cataclysm too, although I personally haven't tried.

"Frustrating" as in "not fun", rather than "fun frustrating"? Do you have any suggestions to help improve it?

One small note, will the female orcs get a different hit/death sound from the male orcs?

Probably. They're in the process of being moved to core - I'll need to make sure they get a (slightly) more feminine hit/die sound.

When Delfador morphs into an animal, but before he's made any moves or attacks - and assuming he has not uncovered terrain with his new form - it should be possible to undo this action. And the same for any spell which has not yet had any effect, I think.

I'd love that, but adding undo support to spellcasting would be a very challenging endeavor, and would probably introduce lots of new bugs. If you or someone else is able to create a PR to add undo, I'd be happy to support it.

[redbeard2]

On Ruins of Saugrath, I was perturbed by the encounter with the bandits. it VERY much looks like your companion leads you into an ambush, yet if Delfador kills the bandits he still follows her with barely a word, which I find unbelievable. If you pay the ambushers they follow you unto death against any and all foes? It really doesn't make sense for them to be so loyal because they successfully shook you down. I feel the encounter needs rewording or something for these outcomes to make sense.

Hmm... the intent here was that it LOOKS like an ambush, but if you pay them off it turns out they're actually friendly guards - they just made a bad first impression. There's a line in there about "what, you didn’t think we was trying to rob something, did ye? Naw, I’m your guide. I’d never hurt a friend of $companion_name’s."

But of course, you don't find that out if you kill them - it just looks like they're bandits and Delfador foolishly doesn't realize that your companion's led you to them...

My thought on the bandit's dialogue:

If they aren't robbing you, why are they talking about a coin purse? Do they really think the worst the Saurians will do to a lone mage skulking around their young during wartime is rob him? It's a real stretch they'd talk that way if not robbing him.

Just a suggestion, but maybe they could say something along the lines of: "It's dangerous around here, just the two of you out here, you look like you should have some protection, and it just so happens we can provide this, for a fee, of course."

I think this conveys the ambiguity of offering to help versus shaking him down for money, "protection" is a phrase used to compel a payment in gangster stereotypes, though I'm not positive that's not just a thing in American English, and could make translation a little tricky.

It's ultimately not a huge deal, but just my thoughts.

The final fight was rather frustrating, I ended up using counterspell, dancing daggers, and animate mud to win, I wonder what other builds worked here

On the highest difficulty, that's what I usually run too. I've heard stories of other people getting good value out of Cataclysm too, although I personally haven't tried.

"Frustrating" as in "not fun", rather than "fun frustrating"? Do you have any suggestions to help improve it?

Hard to say, maybe tone town the healing at least on lower difficulties, my heart dropped when the ghosts got to him and my hard-won progress evaporated to near zero.

When I did the mudcrawler + Dancing Dagger combo, it seemed like he was doing everything possible to avoid me setting up a backstab. Was the ai doing that deliberately or coincidence? It was super annoying.

[revolting_peasant]

In part II, "Houses of the dead",

Spoiler:

...you find Omaranth is actually Ilah-Malal polymorphed, or under...

some sort of spell. So, Delfador finally has a proper reason to equip that particular bit of magic! And there's a point of spell re-selection exactly before that happens. Yet - if I do choose Counterspell, it seems to have absolutely no effect. How come? The Counterspell also doesn't seem to work later, when...

Spoiler:

...faced with the Ilan-Malal illusions that dissolve on attack

[revolting_peasant]

In "The Deceiver" scenario, the Brown allies' attack on the Whitefangs begins at night (!) - on turn 12 (in my play, anyway). It should probably begin at dawn, on the next turn.

I'll adjust that. I think that the Second Watch attack is mechanically the strongest - that puts the heaviest fighting at Dawn/Midday/Dusk - but you're not the first person to question it. I'd rather have their attack look correct than be strong, since I can always adjust AI gold to balance things.

Please do, because why the first clash is not the heaviest - a good first clash for a defending faction really breaks the momentum, for the whole attack, while the opposite lets it move forward and into gaps created in enemy lines etc. (speaking generally, not about this scenario in particular). Also, human armies attack at dawn or in daytime, not at night.

On Ruins of Saugrath, I was perturbed by the encounter with the bandits. it VERY much looks like your companion leads you into an ambush, yet if Delfador kills the bandits he still follows her with barely a word, which I find unbelievable. If you pay the ambushers they follow you unto death against any and all foes? It really doesn't make sense for them to be so loyal because they successfully shook you down. I feel the encounter needs rewording or something for these outcomes to make sense.

Hmm... the intent here was that it LOOKS like an ambush, but if you pay them off it turns out they're actually friendly guards - they just made a bad first impression. There's a line in there about "what, you didn’t think we was trying to rob something, did ye? Naw, I’m your guide. I’d never hurt a friend of $companion_name’s."

But of course, you don't find that out if you kill them - it just looks like they're bandits and Delfador foolishly doesn't realize that your companion's led you to them...

So, maybe just do it the other way?

Have the bandits offer to follow you on your mission through the swamp, and ask politely if you would be willing to pay them. And then, if you refuse - they turn on you and attack.

Or just have the dialog hint at would would happen for either choice.

I agree this is a fairly frustrating level. I actually think that killing the bandits and using Animate Fire is the best option, but then you don't have poachers for the next level which makes it harder.

Oh, man! You get the poachers in subsequent levels as well?! I feel ripped off...

When Delfador morphs into an animal, but before he's made any moves or attacks - and assuming he has not uncovered terrain with his new form - it should be possible to undo this action. And the same for any spell which has not yet had any effect, I think.

I'd love that, but adding undo support to spellcasting would be a very challenging endeavor, and would probably introduce lots of new bugs. If you or someone else is able to create a PR to add undo, I'd be happy to support it.

I had assumed you had done some of the coding here and could just make that happen. But - maybe you can achieve Undo without Undo? Options I can think of:

1. Allow for repeating the spell selection while the spells have not had any effect.
2. If the player cancels the Polymorph before it had any effect, dont subtract the XP cost of the spell

[Dalas120]

My thought on the bandit's dialogue:

If they aren't robbing you, why are they talking about a coin purse? Do they really think the worst the Saurians will do to a lone mage skulking around their young during wartime is rob him? It's a real stretch they'd talk that way if not robbing him.

Just a suggestion, but maybe they could say something along the lines of: "It's dangerous around here, just the two of you out here, you look like you should have some protection, and it just so happens we can provide this, for a fee, of course."

I think this conveys the ambiguity of offering to help versus shaking him down for money, "protection" is a phrase used to compel a payment in gangster stereotypes, though I'm not positive that's not just a thing in American English, and could make translation a little tricky.

Ok, that sounds reasonable to me. I'll do something along those lines - thanks for your suggestion.

Hard to say, maybe tone town the healing at least on lower difficulties, my heart dropped when the ghosts got to him and my hard-won progress evaporated to near zero.

Can do.

When I did the mudcrawler + Dancing Dagger combo, it seemed like he was doing everything possible to avoid me setting up a backstab. Was the ai doing that deliberately or coincidence? It was super annoying.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I've run into that a lot on my playthroughs too, but I haven't given him any special AI. Either the default AI is smart enough, or it's just the way the map is laid out (unintentionally) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

some sort of spell. So, Delfador finally has a proper reason to equip that particular bit of magic! And there's a point of spell re-selection exactly before that happens. Yet - if I do choose Polymorph, it seems to have absolutely no effect. How come? The Counterspell also doesn't seem to work later, when...

From a lore/gameplay perspective, Counterspell only disallows magical attacks. It we expanded it to "dispels all magic" then... what counts as magic? Does Delfador's Chill Touch not work? Can White Mages not heal? Do undead die instantly?

From a "cool" perspective, I agree it would be cool to give Counterspell scripted effects in specific scenarios. But I feel there's no good way to communicate that to the player beforehand without spoiling things, or offering cryptic hints like "counterspell can do something special in this scenario".

And in this specific case, I think Counterspell is already the best option for the fight (because it shuts down your opponent's magical attacks), so I don't think there's any balance reason it needs to be stronger.

I had assumed you had done some of the coding here and could just make that happen. But - maybe you can achieve Undo without Undo? Options I can think of:
1. Allow for repeating the spell selection while the spells have not had any effect.
2. If the player cancels the Polymorph before it had any effect, dont subtract the XP cost of the spell

Yes, I did all of the coding for this campaign, including the spells. If you're not familiar with WML/lua, I'm afraid you're just going to have to take my word for it when I say it's really not easy to implement undo or any "like undo but not quite" effects.

Although you're more than welcome to prove me wrong - I'd love to let the player undo spells, if you can prepare a PR to that effect.

[revolting_peasant]

In Galcadar - I was surprised by the Saurians attacking my faction. How does this make sense? Given that Delfador,

Spoiler:

in his Armageddon Drake form,

would ostensibly tell them not to? Shouldn't they just be focusing on the Orcs? Doesn't make sense to me. If it is imperative in your opinion that Delfador fight the Saurians as well, then - at least have something in the dialog which suggests that's bound to happen. I was sure the Humand and Saurians would be teaming up this time.

[revolting_peasant]

From a lore/gameplay perspective, Counterspell only disallows magical attacks.

Where is this established? Also, it's not what the description says... : "Prevents spellcasting, but not passive skills" - and that's not about attacks.

... or... is it? If you want it to be, at least rephrase the second, or both, lines of the description of Counterspell, to clarify. Also, what constitutes a "passive" skill? Is an Orcish Sorceress' Sap attack a use of a passive skill? How about the Drain side-effect of a Wight's blade attack?

It we expanded it to "dispels all magic" then... what counts as magic? Does Delfador's Chill Touch not work? Can White Mages not heal? Do undead die instantly?

So, I argue that these questions come up already about attacks. And if you can answer them about attacks, then they can be answered more generally.

From a "cool" perspective, I agree it would be cool to give Counterspell scripted effects in specific scenarios. But I feel there's no good way to communicate that to the player beforehand without spoiling things

I think you're already communicating things well enough through Aethey's story about a Necromancer. It is a reasonable guess that Counterspell would work nicely against a Necromancer.

I don't think there's any balance reason it needs to be stronger.

Not a _necessaity_, I agree, but there's no balance reason in the opposite direction: Counterspell will only affect Iliah-Malal in this level, so the "worst" that would happen is that Delf's clever choice of Counterspell would allow the player to circumvent one challenging fight by being clever.

If you're not familiar with WML/lua, I'm afraid you're just going to have to take my word for it when I say it's really not easy to implement undo or any "like undo but not quite" effects.

I guess I will, but if you have spell re-selection points during a scenario - I still wonder if you can't have one earlier. I've never written WML nor Lua I'm afraid.

[Dalas120]

Where is this established? Also, it's not what the description says... : "Prevents spellcasting, but not passive skills" - and that's not about attacks.

... or... is it? If you want it to be, at least rephrase the second, or both, lines of the description of Counterspell, to clarify. Also, what constitutes a "passive" skill? Is an Orcish Sorceress' Sap attack a use of a passive skill? How about the Drain side-effect of a Wight's blade attack?

This is the current description of Counterspell. The main effect is listed first: "disallow magical attacks in a 3-hex radius". A magical attack is one that says "magical" on it:

Untitled2.png (20.62 KiB) Viewed 1220 times

"spellcasting" is a skill that says "spell" next to it:

Untitled4.png (9.82 KiB) Viewed 1220 times

A "passive skill" is one that says "passive" next to it:

Untitled5.png (11.24 KiB) Viewed 1220 times

It sounds like your confusion is that I wasn't clear that Counterspell's "Prevents spellcasting, but not passive skills" applies to Delfador - that's the only place where the terms "spell" and "passive" are used in-game. So far you're the only person who's had that confusion, but it doesn't hurt to be more clear. I'll revise that line to read "Disables Delfador’s spells, but not his passive skills."

[revolting_peasant]

Filed two bugs related to the campaign:

* Undoing a move by a counterspell-caster fails to undo the counterspell halo move #10135
* Prospective attacks consider Counterspell at origin rather than destination #10136

[revolting_peasant]

The game's performance with some TDG scenarios is somehow slower. An extreme case is Galcadar, where it is just lag lag lag - and sometimes I have to wait... 10, up to even 30 seconds for anything to happen, seeing the hourglass icon. And my PC, though not extremely fast - never had any such trouble with Wesnoth scenarios before, that I can remember. 16 GB RAM, full screen, and just a couple of browser windows (with lots of tabs, but not actively doing anything) and mail & messaging clients in the background essentially. i5-7600K 4-core CPU, this shouldn't happen.

[Dalas120]

30 seconds? That's crazy. Can you attach a couple saves where I can click "end turn" and get the lag, so I can investigate?