The Modern Multiplayer Map Reader's Digest

[Doc Paterson]

i have the feeling that flagging a village in advance is overpowering P2.
........

P1 was attacking a little carelessly in the beginning, but i think without that extra village it would have hit me much harder.

There are other explanations as well, as i was using a slightly unusual recruiting.

What do you think?

Unfortunately I don't have time to watch and respond to this and the previous post today- should be able to do so tomorrow. I will say though that I'm extremely doubtful that your hunch is correct. You would have been hit much harder if not for having +3 gold (+2, 1 of upkeep), total? Very hard for me to believe.

You also say that you were recruiting unusually, and that both players made poor or careless choices? Like I said, I'll study these and get back to you, but I definitely believe that a few people have been massively overestimating the impact of this change.

[Doc Paterson]

Now I propose two issue of Hornshark Island.

<issue 1>
On chaotic vs non-chaotic matchup, chaotic side can take 2 villages too easily,
and get too huge advantage on first night(especially chaotic side is P1).
(I know "rush" is possible on other map too ,but not so easy and very hard to take 2villages at first night.)

So I see you actually did include that match I was talking about. Doesn't it demonstrate the opposite? You weren't able to do much of anything at all to him on first night. I'll tell you the motivation behind making Vamp bats better here: The terrain here is worse for Undead than on any other 1v1. This is not to say that it is necessarily bad; I think of it as somewhere in the realm of a 10-15 percent disadvantage for them, in that aspect of the match. When I make a map like Sulla's Ruins better for Undead (which happened not too long ago), I do it by increasing the mobility of their land units, by adding more fort/castle, allowing the adepts good defense without movement penalties when advancing or retreating. There is none of that at all on Hornshark, nor is there any mushroom, which again, isn't a big factor on its own, but adds up in very small modules of disadvantage. In this particular game at least, I feel like you're just not getting this- In the chatlog you're talking about how even though a balanced match is occurring (and you're losing), that the presence of the bat was still "overpowering." over the course of the game. That doesn't fit. This is an example of completely disparate elements of design creating a fair match by affecting different aspects of the game. What would this game have been like if nani didn't have to commit resources to that bat? Probably even more decisive of a win (I'm calling this a win because it sure looks like that will be the outcome). If anything, I've always thought that it was Loys (and Drakes for that matter) who had a small advantage here over Undead, and definitely not the other way around. I am not though discounting an elf disadvantage, but I really, really hesitate to change that water village, because I have seen Undead absolutely blown away on Hornshark so many times.

Watching the next match now.... (Elf vs. UD)


Looks like you're playing against yourself here? (EDIT: You said that in your original post, okay.) Anyways, can't say that I love that.

I see now that you've just set up a situation where P2 is facing some really nasty pressure from three quick adepts and the leader. He's very weak on the right side, and your scout can see that. I'd think that realizing the huge amount of resources that he committed to the left would lead you to try to break through there. Recruiting a wose as you did so early on also doesn't seem too optimal to me, but I guess it would help against the skell on the right if you did choose to try to disrupt over there. Anyways, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong here- It's just kind of sketchy. If this is a real problem, the solution will likely have to involve a small stretching of the map. The sort of pressure we see here is as you probably know something that will often happen on a map this small. Do me a favor though and try this matchup again with a real second player.

Watching the Drake match:

Okay, this is almost the same exact thing (opposite weak/strong sides for P1/P2).

I really don't like the use of gold on a glider here. With another Clasher, you might seriously be able to weather that attack on the left. Same request for a real opponent.


Watching the Northerner match:

This situation seems completely standard for Elf/Northerner. The common thread in these matches though is (as you know) that the leader can attack the villages in question in two moves.

Closing thoughts: Your one match against a good human opponent wasn't very good evidence. Both players admit that Lawful has a good chance to win, and I completely agree. If I do mess with the water villages, I'll probably also make small changes to the general terrain, for the above described reasons.

The three staged matches didn't look all that worrisome to me- Possible exception being the Elf match, in which the three quick adepts were threatening.

While I'm thinking about this and trying out ideas, you should bring me a replay of one of these three against a good opponent.

[Doc Paterson]

After much tinkering, I think I've come up with a version of Hornshark that adjusts the bat situation without powering down Undead much at all. Regardless of whether the old version was balanced or not balanced, I think the core issue was that the bat dynamic wasn't very fun. So, here you go.

P1 leader is also slowed a bit from reaching those two P2 villages, though the 6 movers will still be able to reach on first night, which I don't think is a huge deal. The P1 leader is now two moves (from their keep) away from attack range of one of the villages, as opposed to before, when they could be placed in a location where they could hit either one on the following turn. Only the Deathblade can threaten both, and I'm not too worried about that, as that leader isn't (imo) as good as the Dark Sorcerer anyway, and ought to have a little boost on this map.

[Kolbur]

Hey Doc Paterson, are you generally interested in replays of matches on the updated maps, particularly ladder matches? I could probably post some in the future without having special points to make with them.

Regarding Sablestone Delta, the idea of a forward keep is good I think, but you may have gone a bit to far with it. The keeps are quite close to each other and it is very easy to rush the forward swamp village for both sides. I have no meaningful replays though, seems like the ladder players don't want to play on this map. Someone even requested another map after starting a game with me on it.

[Doc Paterson]

Hey Doc Paterson, are you generally interested in replays of matches on the updated maps, particularly ladder matches? I could probably post some in the future without having special points to make with them.

Regarding Sablestone Delta, the idea of a forward keep is good I think, but you may have gone a bit to far with it. The keeps are quite close to each other and it is very easy to rush the forward swamp village for both sides. I have no meaningful replays though, seems like the ladder players don't want to play on this map. Someone even requested another map after starting a game with me on it.

Well that's nothing new- people have been playing mostly the same maps for years, because they're hesitant to change their habits. Even more so with people on the ladder who care a lot about their ratings; playing it safe is where it's at. Older players sticking with the same maps all the time continues the cycle, because it gets newer players hooked on doing the same thing.

Anyways, yes, replays are great. As for Sablestone, I have no problem with both sides being able to rush, so long as the rush isn't abusive. Time will tell whether that really is so or not. If it is, I'll stretch it by a very, very small amount. If you want to lend evidence to one side or the other, just post up some replays.

[Rigor]

i like your new version of sabrestone delta very much

so far i ve had quite some fun on that map. i hope u will find the replays useful:

Chueckle the first victim
Sabre wolves against Shevek
Shevek elves mirror
Shevek against horses
picked drakes against Anushumper picked UD

about your comment on the "safe" - playing on certain maps: i completely agree with you that some players are super careful and would never try anything new when its something they dont know too well and lose points because of it, unlike many new ladder players who are always putting their score at stake and lose points all the time.

i guess you wont be able to do anything about that atm. its really a mess that those maps are seldomly played.

[Doc Paterson]

i like your new version of sabrestone delta very much

so far i ve had quite some fun on that map. i hope u will find the replays useful:

Chueckle the first victim
Sabre wolves against Shevek
Shevek elves mirror
Shevek against horses
picked drakes against Anushumper picked UD

about your comment on the "safe" - playing on certain maps: i completely agree with you that some players are super careful and would never try anything new when its something they dont know too well and lose points because of it, unlike many new ladder players who are always putting their score at stake and lose points all the time.

i guess you wont be able to do anything about that atm. its really a mess that those maps are seldomly played.

Only one of those links works for me. I do appreciate the effort and the good spirit though.

[Caphriel]

Chueckle the first victim
Sabre wolves against Shevek
Shevek elves mirror
Shevek against horses
picked drakes against Anushumper picked UD

Try these.

[Rigor]

oooooooooh thx for the fix i did this (url texting) the first time so it was clear something would go wrong he he

glad to help u out!

[grrr]

After much tinkering, I think I've come up with a version of Hornshark that adjusts the bat situation without powering down Undead much at all. Regardless of whether the old version was balanced or not balanced, I think the core issue was that the bat dynamic wasn't very fun. So, here you go.

updated in map updates add-on version 0.3, sorry for the delay

[Kolbur]

Alright, as promised here are some replays of games on the updated maps.

[Kolbur]

Basically you can watch my replays on the ladder. I write the factions and the map (and if it is a updated one) in the game comments. Have fun watching them.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Will Arcanclave Citadel be included in 1.8? I love this map but its missing in beta 2

[Doc Paterson]

Will Arcanclave Citadel be included in 1.8? I love this map but its missing in beta 2

It will be in the next dev release for sure. It just barely missed the cutoff for 1.8.

[Kolbur]

Hi, here's a replay of a Drakes vs Northerners match on Arcanclave Citadel vs Rigor. Northies got into the center and then the Drakes had quite some trouble to defend on the flank and they couldn't really retreat like usual because that would mean the enemy leader gets into their keep. Also my orcs could keep up the pressure in spite of losses thanks to the ability to recruit very close to the battle. I noticed that I could recruit and threaten to enter the enemy keep every turn with my 6mp leader. That's not possible with a 5 mp leader. Rigor had to leave though but his situation looked quite bad in the end. It was certainly a fun game.