1.20 balance change for Core Eras and Units made by the Balance Team

[Skyend]

Is ok, do so, I'm out.

[matto]

PROPOSED FOOTPAD - [CHANGE for SP / BALANCE for Default Era]

From 4dmg x2 strike IMPACT MELEE to 5dmg x2 strike BLADE MELEE

With subsequent change of Footpad, its advancements change Damage Type to BLADE.
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What i gathered from/out this discussion, problems/solutions people have...

A] Need for Sprite changes to fit the Blade DmgType.

B] By Tezy: Knalga/Dwarves+Outlaw having 7 out of 8 Units with Blade. [Now its 6 out of 8]

C] By Mirion: Poor People Lore "not having access" to metal work to build Axes, unlike Knalga Alliance[make] & Outlaws[steal/buy].

D] Liberty & NR difficulty increase ? / UMC adaptations to the change.

E] RIPLIB of the unit after the change.

F] Undeads vs Knalga Alliance in Default Era & Footpad Change Influence on Matchups.

G] Double Damage Type - IMPACT+PIERCE.

H] SP and MP unit separation.

_________________________________________________________________

[This is the kind of "waste" of time a Balance Team might "resent"{yes, we are humans xD}, we want to use our Creativity/Time to make new Fun things, but i will try to fullfil as best as i can the role to sustain people hunger for elucidations ... At the end of the day this type of talks are what people deserve and its a way to build trust of the Balance Team, hopefully xD]
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Okay time to dive into this and feel free to disagree

A|E:

Already on Mechanical's back, thnx bro!

I see no problems with the artwork, as I can change a club to an axe at all unit levels on all sprites, including animations.

About RIPLIB for Footpad, Skyend could have been more specific since Ladder Era Footpads advancements have Blade, and Sprite problem solved again by Mechanical.

C|H|D:

We can start to say that, Footpad, Poacher, Thief and Thug don't represent only Poor People of the Wesnotian Border (like in Liberty); but various Bandits/Outlaws from various Mainline Campaigns; in NR both are represented, plus "their future" as the Knalga Alliance.

So the Footpad having an Axe instead of a Club got an interpretation of lore by Mechanical.

- The sprite and portrait of the current Footpad already contains metal elements;
- It's very easy for a medieval peasant to get an axe, literally every house has one;
- Other level 1 bandits also have metal weapons (notably the Thief and Poacher have a dagger)

Limited resources counter argument by Mirion.

Thief and poachers are different in lore. Thieves have obviously stolen their weapons, while poachers have knives already, to gut the animals they poach.
I admit though that I did not consider an axe, so having an axe could make more sense, but I would not assume that all houses have one.

This argument doesn't hold because Wesnoth is a game where you can virually recruit "infinite" Poacher, so they have A LOT of BOWS if you spam Poachers, which not every House have and consider that you have to craft Arrows too, so realism is getting the hold a bit too much IMO.

Be it that Outlaws/Bandits steal & buy, Knalga Alliance buy & craft [thanks to dwarves] and Poor People can buy & craft too, probably not Axes as strong as dwarvish craftmanship. As it was said previously Poachers have Knives, which might be bought or crafted depending on what an UMC or Mainline Campaign wants to do, this discussion leads again to realism nitpicking to disrupt change and "tunnel vision" possible UMC Campaign Lore.

So i don't think we can limit this change for "Lore inconsistency".

Great point by Dalas here!

Walking Corpses / Soulless already come in a dozen variations, Giant Scorpions are clearly closely related to Sand Scuttlers, Soldier Ants vs Fire Ants, the various horses, etc. I'd also support a new alternative Woodcutter/Lumberjack advancement for the Footpad

I think this is the best idea so far, personally i wouldn't want that, but if nobody gives up on their opinion this is the go to honestly.
By the way i saw this done by both UMC & SP, exemple is Hooded Wesfolk Leader for SP and for UMC is Aragwaithi Hooded versions.
As for Gameplay side Dalas exemples are better.

Through this we can connect to Liberty & NR difficulty.

If you played Liberty you would know that in S2 your Units are Neutral and different descriptions, i wonder why wasn't it programmed like Walking Corpses / Soulless (code limitations?), so i believe that the Balance stay the same for Liberty Units thanks to outlaw_type_hack to turn them into the "Variation" we play and use 99.9% of the time.

UMC shouldn't limit MAINLINE WESNOTH for potential growth, be it because of code changes (i remember some WMLs changes in either 1.14 or 1.16, deal with it please don't drag down evolution of the Gameplay...) and/or by adding something new, as long as it makes sense and it is better.

B|F:

Oh boy this is tough, FFA of Arguments here! XD

Knagla Alliance [strategy/matchup/unit counters & effectiveness/map influence]

Let's start with SkyEnd (i take the wheel from here )

The reason is that KA is a lot stronger than UD in 1v1.
Although it's worse against the other factions.

Having this change helps with every balance here.

Strategy/Situation vs UD - Generally:

Undeads will try to rush thanks to ToD leading Knalga to focus on Footpads in case the Map wont allow for Dwarf Fighters to support the attacked Village (Low/Weak Hills, Long Distance), if at risk and you can't position yourself to achive a counter kill with an early Ulf [if non-Ulfable units(Skeleton Fighter and Ghost at Night) are more don't recruit it] to keep trading units until ToD change and you get an advantage, but Undeads decided to not attack which only made you lower your upkeep since they pushed you to recruit Footpads, you positioned good and are able to reach Undeads so some Footpads uses the Ranged attack on Skeletons or Ghoul, now this could be either a bait depending on context or you are just better.

[Village have 2 to 3 hexes to attack from generally, the exemple Ulf attack always from Flat and at Day] You decided to recruit the early Ulf and will try to take over Undead Village.
Versus Ghoul or Skeleton Archer on the Village, your Ulf ALONE will get a 60% to 70% ctk depending on his Hp Poll {STRONG gives around 10%~20% more ctk}(gave by traits)[note that Ulf doesn't care if he is 1 HP bc of poison, you can still oneshot Adepts and you get village advantage which heal poison].

Versus Skeleton Fighter, your Ulf ALONE will get 99% chance to die {Same if STRONG} so either your Footpad hit the right Skeleton when they were retreating or a Dwarvish Fighter hits now, you hitted once (10/11dmg) with Dwarvish Fighter now if your Ulf isn't STRONG you still are blocked at 95% chance to die, STRONG Ulf has ~50% ctk, you want to hit twice with Dwarvish Fighter most of the times.

Versus Ghost, your Ulf ALONE will get 80% chance to die, STRONG Ulf has ~70% ctk.

You now know how to take Villages or what to do generally to fight/prevent a Rush, experience will make you understand matchups and the long game.

This change aim is to help vs Orcish Assassins and Northerners vs KA [60%/40%]
Reference Replay of KA vs NO in the attachments (1.16 with Ladder Era addon, Success Rush by NO)


Other Matchups Winratio:
KA vs UD is 50/50 in my opinion before Blade Change which Helps UD.
KA vs LOY 50/50 Map dependant otherwise 40%/60% (Blade Change Helps)
KA vs DRK 40%/60% Map dependant otherwise 50/50 (Blade Change Helps)

KA vs REB this one is tricky, Elves have always been considered to be worse than Dwarves, if the change happens thats where you need to keep a eye on (default era)

Damage Difference Blade/Impact Footpad - B Point

What are the damage differences of BF(Blade Footpad) and IF(Impact Footpad) versus Various Resistances.
------------------------------- NS(No strong) YS(Yes strong) D(Day) N(Night) S(Sunset)
BF=5x2 base

BF vs Blade Res 10% (Ghoul) = D 4dmg YS/3dmg NS | S 5dmg YS/5dmg NS | N 7dmg YS/6dmg NS
BF vs Blade Res 20% (Troll Welp/Clasher) = D 4dmg YS/3dmg NS | S 5dmg YS/4dmg NS | N 6dmg YS/5dmg NS
BF vs Blade Res 30% (Cavarlyman) = D 3dmg both NS and YS | S 4dmg both NS and YS | N 5dmg YS/4dmg NS
BF vs Blade Res 40% (Skeleton) = D 3dmg YS/2dmg NS | S 4dmg YS/3dmg NS| N 5dmg YS/4dmg NS
BF vs Blade Res 50% (Heavy Infantry/Ghost) = D 2dmg both NS and YS | S 3dmg both NS and YS | N 4dmg YS/3dmg NS
BF vs Blade Res -10% (Lizard) = D 5dmg YS/4dmg NS | S 7dmg YS/5dmg NS| N 8dmg YS/7dmg NS
BF vs Blade Res -30% (Orcish Assassin) = D 6dmg YS/5dmg NS | S 8dmg YS/6dmg NS | N 10dmg YS/8dmg NS

--------------------------------
IF=4x2 base

IF vs Impact Res 10% (Heavy Infantry) = D 3dmg YS/3dmg NS |S 5dmg YS/4dmg NS |N 6dmg YS/4dmg NS
IF vs Impact Res 30% (Clasher) = D 3dmg YS/2dmg NS | S 4dmg YS/3dmg NS | N 4dmg YS/4dmg NS
IF vs Impact Res 40% (Cavarlyman) = D 2dmg YS/2dmg NS |S 3dmg YS/2dmg NS|N 4dmg YS/3dmg NS
IF vs Impact Res 50% (Ghost) = D 2dmg both NS and YS |S 3dmg YS/2dmg NS |N 3dmg both NS and YS
IF vs Impact Res -10% (Lizard) = D 4dmg YS/3dmg NS |S 5dmg YS/4dmg NS|N 7dmg YS/5dmg NS
IF vs Impact Res -20% (Orcish Assassin) = D 5dmg YS/4dmg NS | S 6dmg YS/5dmg NS |N 7dmg YS/6dmg NS
--------------------------------

Despite having Blade Footpad is much better for little drawback towards Heavy Infantry or Skeleton.

Here guys is your opportunity to make the so hated HEAVY INFANTRY better, i do say take it.
Btw matto is planning some cool ideas for it, lets see if i can beat Hejne with a worse rework

Ask me if you want a more in depth talk about how Damage Blade/Impact influences the IF and BF toward matchups units, otherwise i am gonna leave this for another time or future.

I suggested reducing the damage of DF hammer attack and increasing DF axe attack.

You are making Dwarvish Fighter stronger than a Spearman this way, and Rebels are worse than Loyalist at fighting against Knalga, and nerfing DF Hammer used to fight against Skeleton Fighter/Troll/Heavy Infantryman isn't a good idea, i suspect it would have serious consequences, especially considering the DF Axe buff of +1dmg, 8x3 NS / 9x3 YS is crazy strong if you have in mind general HP poll of Units... 10/11x3 dmg vs Assassin, goodbye Orcs 60%/40% winratio, you are now 40%/60% winratio... even Grunt is gonna fear a Dwarvish Fighter at Night, now Trolls just get sliced like Woses instead of using Hammer since Trolls have 0% Impact Res making their vulnerability exploitation inexistant, blunt gameplay and unfun.

G|E:

This makes the Base Wesnoth Overly Complex and hard to balance in too many ways, you are too strong vs Horses for no reason, this would probably make little better to Loy vs KA, which isn't the optimal balance path for it.

I would reserve it to a After The Fall Era which aims to be more complex, satisfying that slice of Player which is quite big consider how complex/weird are most of UMCs.

Tho i think its mechanics should be reworked, from what i know it takes the best of both Damage Types towards the Resistances of that Type (aka. if i fight a loyalist Cavarlyman i take into consideration the Pierce damage instead of Impact), instead i would go for an average of those Resistances Type

(EDIT!!)
If we go for this change (Impact+Pierce Melee) for Footpad, RIPLIB needs to be applied for advancements, which would lead to severe unbalanced in both Campaigns and MP.

Outlaw with 8dmg x2 strike with Impact+Pierce, good luck charging into that =]

Had to move the post... too much arguing over futile...

[Temuchin Khan]

In his defense, though, most of those who have voted so far seem to agree with him. I see 8 "no" votes, 2 "change everywhere" votes, and 1 "change in only some places" vote. So, currently, Skyend, those of us who want the change are being outvoted 8-3. Maybe you should pay attention to his concerns!

This is a dynamic voting, with the option that ppl change their opinion after testing (or at any point).
I couldn't care less for the first 5h of voting.

His concerns were addressed countless of time by enough ppl.
And as said before testing I can't care less.

OK, I get it.

And thank you for using "I could not care less" correctly. Really bugs me when people erroneously say, "I could care less" in the mistaken belief that they are avoiding a double negative, when they are actually no longer asserting a negation at all.

[lhybrideur]

BTW, if we go for axe for the three levels, what would be the damages for lvl2 and 3?
9x2 (+1) or 10x2 (+25%) for lvl2 ?
12x2 (+1), 13x2 or 14x2 (+25%) for lvl3 ?

[Spannerbag]

Assuming my understanding is correct, it might be worth adding a note to explicitly state that this poll, whatever the result, will not affect mainline units and will only affect ladder play...

That doesn't make much sense... This change is already in the Ladder Era, and has been for a long time (for example, see the Footpad in the 1.14 version of the Ladder Era, which has been around for several years at least).

I believe the question is asking whether this change should be applied to core/mainline Wesnoth.

Ah, right. On that basis then I will vote, thanks.

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[sine_nomine]

how about giving the lvl2 outlaw both a blade weapon and an impact weapon?

[Spannerbag]

OK, stupid me again.

Two items:


First, regarding the poll questions:

1. everywhere (replacement): 5x2 melee blade (change it's melee attack to blade, but + 1 dmg), new sprits would be needed
2. only core eras (halve replacement): 5x2 melee blade (change it's melee attack to blade, but + 1 dmg), new sprits would be needed
3. no touching: 4x2 melee impact (keeping it as it was always in core eras and campaign)

Belated edit: got the numbers wrong below:
Not clear what the scope of option 2 above is (no idea exactly what halve replacement means ).
I assume "core eras" refers to the default groups of (mainline) units available in MP (but as I've never played MP I don't know for certain) but on that basis I assume that both options 2 and 3 1 and 2 would mean mainline (and thus SP) would be impacted (pun intended ).

So, what units/games would be affected in 3 1 that would not be affected in 2?
Sorry to be dim.


Second, thanks to matto for your post, really helpful and your efforts were appreciated at least by me.

One minor point regarding lore I have a point kinda related to Roge_Tebnelok's post: Axe-wielding outlaw would better work not as footpad's, but as thug's variation and Mechanical's post: It's very easy for a medieval peasant to get an axe, literally every house has one.

If Footpads have easy access to axe, surely the same is true for Thugs?
I would have thought that the "best" weapons would have been given to the strongest warriors (i.e. Thugs would use axes not clubs).
I suppose it depends if axe is deemed superior to club...
However like almost eveyone here I imagine, any changes should be aimed at making the gameplay as enjoyable as possible for the majority so I'm just pointing out what some may see as a weird inconsistency in lore (or not ).

Cheers,
-- Spannerbag

[matto]

BTW, if we go for axe for the three levels, what would be the damages for lvl2 and 3?
9x2 (+1) or 10x2 (+25%) for lvl2 ?
12x2 (+1), 13x2 or 14x2 (+25%) for lvl3 ?

Makes Outlaw and Fugitive a lot stronger versus Loyalist Cavarly and Fencer-like units.

If the change gains popularity, -1 dmg melee to both Outlaw and Fugitive, or just Fugitive would be enough IMO.

One minor point regarding lore I have a point kinda related to Roge_Tebnelok's post: Axe-wielding outlaw would better work not as footpad's, but as thug's variation and Mechanical's post: It's very easy for a medieval peasant to get an axe, literally every house has one.

If Footpads have easy access to axe, surely the same is true for Thugs?

Yeah i agree! Thugs are more inclined for it, Ladder Era renamed Footpad melee to Hatchet (a small one handed axe), tho would be cool to have Thugs with twohanded Axes =) I think would be nice for SP.

how about giving the lvl2 outlaw both a blade weapon and an impact weapon?

I don't mind it, i guess it depends what the Lore People want.
Tho i would prefer to prevent multiple Damage Types sharing the same Damage.
Similar reason to my original post on Point G, about DDT (DoubleDamageTypes).

I mean that it's always been possible to create two different attacks: 8-5 blade, 8-5 arcane
Which is identical to 8-5 blade/arcane.

Resistances become less powerful, if DDT becomes a Mainline feature for many Units, i do prefer if it was left idle for Unit Balance, and used for SP(CAMPAIGNS/CAMPAIGNS UNITS ONLY!).

I think it should have its seperate mechanic, i talked about it with some cool guys, my idea:

A new way for it to work would be, Cavarlyman [+40% impact -20% pierce] is attacked by Unit with Impact+Pierce, now you do (Positive Res minus Negative Res) 40-20 of Cav resistances and get a +20% Resistance, but what about double positive resistance like in Skeleton Fighter[+40% blade +60% pierce] versus attacker with Blade+Pierce? use the weaker resistance? I don't like how this works but its a start

[IPS]

Idk, but what about minding to keep lv1 footpad as how it is, but allowing him to pick betwen two advancement, the outlaw with the mace and sling, and another one that uses an melee axe and probably having the sling , but having way different role than outlaw? like better at retaliations (particularly melee?) but not so fast?

Also, about Knalga, do really Dwarvish Lord needs to be 40% blade resistance? it's just way too unfair this unit has 60% hills defense and 70% mountains defense.... in default era there is no way how you can kill a 60/70% defense steelclad if only reaching 2 or 3 spots in at least 2 turns.

I would sincerely propose to nerf the Dwarvish Lord's blade resistance to only 30% (Same value as lv2) , because the heck, it's hilarous or endgame knalga is just spamming Dwarvish Lords.... why not make other options way more strong but Dwarvish Lord particularly weaker?


And about officialized 1.18 changes, well, the arcane revamp messed things a real lot (lol) , but it also helps at introducing new units and arcane on lv1 gameplay too.... thing that if you ask me, wasn't that bad... also making Drakes and Undead in overall more enjoyable because not having insane arcane weakness.

About elvish sorceress having a real lot of dmg... well... that's a very gray spot, they really need something that can kill Dwarvish Lords .... but again, we're in a situation that the issue is not about rebels, just instead of how sick strong are steelclad/dwarvish lords.

Lastly, I want to comment that default is terribly balanced for randomly generated maps, favoring the most to rebels, drakes and knalga because of having better mobility, while undead can't map control in large maps because how expensive and outnumbered are ghosts, how weak are bats and how slow is the entire rest of the army. Loy struggles way too much in terrain spam that other factions could be doing well... while they rock in flat.

Hope you consider this other aspects for a future , as I think expanding default to be more fun to custom scenarios or game modes would help wesnoth to have higher replay value.

[sine_nomine]

I meant the outlaw could choose to use blade or impact, like a dwarf fighter. That way blade-footpad could promote to it. But on second thought never mind, it's better to avoid changing more units.

Anyway I don't really understand this balance team stuff, but I think it's a good idea to use 1.16 as a starting point and individually reassess each change made since then. That way you can carefully ensure the good things are preserved.
I see the in-game description for the addon states it "uses 1.16 stats for level 0-2 default-era units", what about lvl3+? I would like to use this for singleplayer when it is available but it will be confusing if units' arcane resistances change when they reach lvl3 (plus many other changes to lvl3 units).

[Skyend]

To clarify, yeah it's true we decided to not revert everything starting on the 1.16 base.
level 0-2 default era units are reverted to 1.16 stats
level 3 and higher, as well as all other non default era units start on 1.18 stats

For arcane rework, currently all units are back to 1.16 stats (only for arcane), or better to say that all units use 1.16 movement_types. In those are fundamental resistance saved, whereas those can be adjusted in the individual unit file. Means overall, currently there isn't a mismatch between units types, but few individual might be.


Below a code example:

Code: Select all

   [movetype]
        name=20_undeadfoot
        [movement_costs]
            deep_water=3
            shallow_water=2
            reef=2
            swamp_water=2
            flat=1
            sand=2
            forest=2
            hills=2
            mountains=3
            village=1
            castle=1
            cave=2
            frozen=2
            fungus=2
        [/movement_costs]

        [defense]
            deep_water=90
            shallow_water=80
            reef=70
            swamp_water=70
            flat=60
            sand=70
            forest=50
            hills=50
            mountains=40
            village=40
            castle=40
            cave=60
            frozen=70
            fungus=40
        [/defense]

        [resistance]
            blade=90
            pierce=70
            impact=110
            fire=120
            cold=40
            arcane=150
        [/resistance]
    [/movetype]

Code: Select all

[unit_type]
    id=20_Draug
    name= _ "Draug"
    race=undead
    image="units/undead-skeletal/draug.png"
    profile="portraits/undead/draug.webp"
    hitpoints=68
    movement_type=20_undeadfoot

Arcane rework will probably not be reversed completely.
There are still some minor errors in the units files, and we haven't done any changes.You'd better wait for version 0.1.0, that's when things are settled and the first changes included.

We set everything up, for individual units and are discussing overall topics atm.

[egallager]

Footpads HAVE to stay as impact damage; many campaigns are balanced around using Footpads against undead

[Skyend]

Version 0.1.0 is out, have fun playing/testing.

[IPS]

Footpads HAVE to stay as impact damage; many campaigns are balanced around using Footpads against undead

I have mentioned to Hejnewar to keep all existing lv1-lv3 footpads as impact dmg, but also create a new lv2-lv3 line with blade attack and probably another role (or stat distribution), so we keep our footdpads but get a new lv2/lv3 unit that is more similar to what is being discussed here.

There is no need to change what already works well.... and why not adding more content to knalga?

[lhybrideur]

From what I understand from what SkyEnd wrote, the needed change would be to change LVL1 footpad to blade. What you are proposing is the opposite and would therefore have little effect on balance.